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While we're all praising Paizo for the quality of the rules they provide, sometimes, there is something than everyone admits is just plain wrong.
Some archetypes, like the Titan Mauler, are what seems at first like a loss of paper. Because even if the concept is nice, the execution failed at some point to take everything into account to really follow the fluff, be interesting and worthwile enough to ever be taken, and they become practical jokes or "maybe-it's-just-broken" samples to explain another archetype's oddity, to the point even rules-lawyers can't find anything to do with them without sucking at their job.
No one is perfect, and the objective of threads like these isn't to rant about it. Especially not about little chunks of rules in a roleplay game. This kind of mistakes happen, especially in big books and something as hard as game design, but most DMs will not want or can not affort to take the time and correct them, so they just decide to handwave the rules if there is no official correction.
Since the Titan Mauler indeed received a FAQ ruling which was far from the slight rewrite people really waited for to consider the archetype fully usable, here is an attempt at correcting it, making the Titan Mauler something you would actually want to play at first glance !
Because the concept is powerful and pretty much universal, to the point even Amiri, the iconic Pathfinder barbarian could be one of them, there was not too much to change as to make the archetype better.
Hope you'll awesomely like it ! And all comments are welcomed, as always. :)
Titan Mauler
In lands overrun by giants, dragons, and other hulking beasts, exist exceptional barbarians who, either by tradition or obligation, excell at bringing low these massive foes. While her enemies’ size makes the creatures strong, the titan mauler is even stronger, looting from her fallen foes or crafting weapons that no lesser warrior can lift. While for most people these weapons look more like large hunks of iron, wood, or whatever part of a creature the titan mauler extracted them from, she is able to wield them to crush any foes, as monumental they could be.
Big Game Hunter (Ex)
A titan mauler gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC in melee with creatures larger than themselves.
This ability replaces fast movement.
Jotungrip (Ex)
At 2nd level, when a titan mauler is raging, she may wield a weapon as if she was one size category larger, suffering a -2 penalty to attack when doing so. This also allows her to use an appropriately sized two-handed melee weapon as an one-handed weapon. The Titan Mauler still takes the penalty to attack for using an inappropriately sized weapon for her base size (an appropriately sized weapon isn't considered as a weapon one size smaller when using this ability, and thus doesn't give any attack penalty if wielded befittingly).
For example, a medium titan mauler with the exotic weapon proficiency (bastard sword) feat, while raging, could hold a large 2d8 bastard sword as an one-handed weapon or two-handed weapon with a -4 penalty, or a huge 3d8 bastard sword as a two-handed weapon with a -6 penalty to attack.
He could also wield a medium 2d6 greatsword as an one-handed weapon with a -2 penalty, a large 3d6 greatsword as a two-handed weapon with a -2 penalty, a huge 3d6 longsword as a two-handed weapon with a -4 penalty, or a gargantuan 3d6 short sword as a two-handed weapon with a -6 penalty to attack.
Size Doesn't Count (Su)
At level 2, any effect increasing the titan mauler's size, like the enlarge person spell, doesn't increase her size, including her equipment or base weapon damage. Rather, she gains the ability to wield even the mightiest of weapons looted from it's titanic foes, or improvised from surrounding environment.
When enlarged, the titan mauler instead gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, is considered one size larger for the purpose of CMD and rage powers, and adds one size to her grip for the purposes of the Jotungrip ability (up to -8 to attack for wielding a light weapon four sizes higher than her base size as a two-handed weapon).
This ability and jotungrip replace uncanny dodge.
Massive Weapons (Ex)
At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted or crafted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of -2 when whielding weapons four size categories larger).
She also gains a +1 bonus to damage with weapons that need two hands to wield, whether she is using Jotungrip or not. This bonus increases by 1 each five levels later, up to +1 to damage per size category (respectively +1 for an appropriately sized weapon, +2 for a weapon one size larger, +3 for a weapon two sizes larger and +4 for a weapon three sizes larger or more).
This ability replaces trap sense.
Evade Reach (Ex)
At 5th level, as a swift action, a titan mauler may choose one creature within her line of sight. Until the end of her turn, that target’s reach is treated as if it were 5 feet shorter with respect to reaching the titan mauler, and this reduction increases by 5 feet for every five levels beyond 5th.
This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
Rending Rage (Ex)
At 14th level, a titan mauler may choose to gain the benefits of enlarge person when she enters a rage. While using titanic rage, she must spend 2 rounds of rage per round. In addition, when she is raging, the titan mauler deals double damage whenever she does only one attack during her round. She rolls damage as normally, then adds the result to her damage on this attack before applying any additional bonus dices from special weapon abilities or feats like vital strike. This additional damage isn't multiplied on a critical hit.
This ability replaces indomitable will.
Rage Powers: The following rage powers complement the titan mauler archetype: body bludgeon, greater ground breaker, ground breaker, knockback, mighty swing, powerful blow, roused anger, smasher, and strength surge.
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It's not bad at all, but not getting reach from enlargements with Size Doesn't Count really sucks.
Intentional ! ;) I liked the whole "huge weapon gives reach" idea (that I even myself proposed after the UC came out and before the FAQ), but it both makes not much sense (they are bigger weapons of smaller base size) and is redundant with the reach reduction.
The fact that really going in melee is much more awesome against big foes than hiding behind it's reach, which feels better for a reasoned fighter than a bloodthirsty barbarian, has also a lot to do with it.Don't forget that while raging and enlarged, you can still use a medium or large lance one-handed with a -2 or -4 penalty to attack to always have reach if it's what you want. Add in Lunge and cleave feats for good effect whenever needed, you can afford the -2 to AC anyways thanks to the ground breaking and diverses ability increasing survivability or battlefield control.
The titan mauler may now loot for real it's foes, even one-handed gargantuan weapons that tend to hit hard on sunder attempts when you are a barbarian with a scary weapon.
But it's by no mean indispensable, since the best weapon for common fights is probably a simple large bastard sword with the exotic proficiency.
Still reading... and still Slightly confused on the new take on Jotungrip. ^_^
I'm especially concerned with a few things:
1) Enlarge Person is not considered a Harmless spell or effect, although usually interpreted as Beneficial. You are essentially adding a supernatural ability that will harness its power, and instead transform it into a cumulative bonus without any penalty.
Although it's complicating things... Perhaps you should make such an effect freely available only after a successful Fortitude save (which the Barb is good at), or if the effect can make a caster level check vs. a certain DC... I know it messes with the last ability, but you're ignoring the offensive or utility-based capabilities of the Enlarge effect.
ryder also has a point about the reach.
2) I've never seen, in Any aspect of pathfinder, something that grants a Bonus, Because of a Lack of Penalty. Referring to your Massive Weapons skill. I'm pretty sure there's a reason for that, somewhere.
You might also want to word it better, so it doesn't seem like a weapon Four times the size receives no benefit. That'd be a real let down to Small titan brawlers, that want to benefit from Gargantuan-classed weapons.
I personally think the original class skill was much better worded than this, no offense meant. ^_^
3) ... this one Really might be just me... but... I'm Quite confused with Jotungrip. The skill need not mention the first phrase, and much else; That's already in the Core, in the weapons section.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder.
...If I'm correct, all you're attempting to do is remove the "The weapon must be appropriately sized for her" condition? Why not just omit that? Am I missing something?
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The forum ate my hyper long answer. >_>
Still reading... and still Slightly confused on the new take on Jotungrip. ^_^
I'm especially concerned with a few things:
1) Enlarge Person is not considered a Harmless spell or effect, although usually interpreted as Beneficial. You are essentially adding a supernatural ability that will harness its power, and instead transform it into a cumulative bonus without any penalty.
Although it's complicating things... Perhaps you should make such an effect freely available only after a successful Fortitude save (which the Barb is good at), or if the effect can make a caster level check vs. a certain DC... I know it messes with the last ability, but you're ignoring the offensive or utility-based capabilities of the Enlarge effect.
ryder also has a point about the reach.
1) Size Doesn't Count is meant to follow the fluff that a Titan Mauler doesn't need to be bigger to bring down it's foes, and is also a balance tool to avoid low-level titan maulers running everywhere enlarged in fights with a gargantuan warhammer. It has penalties :
- You get no reach ;- Your base damage dice doesn't increase.
The lunge feat reproduces the effects of being enlarged during your turn (reach), giving you the drawbacks of being enlarged (-2) until the beginning of your next round. With Evade Reach, a Titan Mauler doesn't need reach.
Also, a Titan Mauler may use an appropriately sized two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon with a -2 penalty to attack, so you can always wield a reach weapon like a fauchard and have reach at any time.
2) I've never seen, in Any aspect of pathfinder, something that grants a Bonus, Because of a Lack of Penalty. Referring to your Massive Weapons skill. I'm pretty sure there's a reason for that, somewhere.
You might also want to word it better, so it doesn't seem like a weapon Four times the size receives no benefit. That'd be a real let down to Small titan brawlers, that want to benefit from Gargantuan-classed weapons.
2) I don't really see where the Titan Mauler is receiving a bonus "because of a lack of penalty" ? Massive Weapons only reduces the barbarian's penalty for wielding a bigger weapon than herself, since, to the contrary of another creature, she can have up to -8 to attack from this alone. She doesn't get any attack bonus for wielding bigger weapons, and there already are penalties everywhere.
Small Titan Maulers cannot benefit at all from Gargantuan-classed one and two-handed weapons, which they simply can not wield. And wielding a weapon four sizes bigger gives you benefits : it's a huge base damage dice, useful for Vital Strike and Rending Rage, you get a constant +4 to damage with them, you may improvise enormous weapons from the environment ("We're in the Throne room ? We have no weapons ? Well, I grab the Throne."), or loot them from big creatures. Big creatures tend to hit hard on sunder attempts, so taking their weapon after they destroyed yours is always useful when you need it.
So, a small Titan Mauler may wield :
- TH small weapons as TH or OH weapons (-2 to attack when OH, Jotungrip)
- TH medium weapons as TH small weapons and OH medium weapons as OH small weapons (still suffering the -2 to attack from oversized weapon)
- OH large weapons as TH small weapons and Light large weapons as OH small weapons(-4 to attack)
- Light huge weapons as TH small weapons (-6 to attack)
And if enlarged :
- TH small weapons as TH or OH weapons (-2 to attack when OH, Jotungrip)
- TH medium weapons as TH small weapons and OH medium weapons as OH small weapons (-2 to attack from oversized weapon)
- TH large weapons as TH small weapons and OH large weapons as OH medium weapons (-4 to attack)
- OH huge weapons as TH small weapons and Light huge weapons as OH small weapons (-6 to attack)
- Light gargantuan weapons as TW small weapons (-8 to attack)
I personally think the original class skill was much better worded than this, no offense meant. ^_^
And no offense taken, I'm not a professional and english isn't my first language. :)
3) ... this one Really might be just me... but... I'm Quite confused with Jotungrip. The skill need not mention the first phrase, and much else; That's already in the Core, in the weapons section.
...If I'm correct, all you're attempting to do is remove the "The weapon must be appropriately sized for her" condition? Why not just omit that? Am I missing something?
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder.
You are indeed misinterpretating the ability. The rules you quoted apply to every class, including the official Titan Mauler, which ironically enough may not wield a too big weapon and doesn't get the ability to increase this limit despite being a class based around this exact concept.
Jotungrip allows you :- To wield a TH weapon of your own size in OH with a -2 penalty (heavy shield + lance for reach and AC).
- To be considered bigger for the purpose of handling weapons and determining what is your limit in size category. You are effectively considered as being both your base size and one size bigger, but you still suffer penalties when wielding weapons bigger than your base size. Using again the previous example of a small Titan Mauler so you can better understand =
A small Fighter may wield :
- TH small weapons as TH small weapons
- OH medium weapons as TH small weapons and Light medium weapons as OH small weapons (-2 to attack)
- Light large weapons as TH small weapons (-4 to attack)
A small Titan Mauler may wield :
- TH small weapons as TH or OH weapons (-2 to attack when OH, Jotungrip)
- TH medium weapons as TH small weapons and OH medium weapons as OH small weapons (still suffering the -2 to attack from oversized weapon)
- OH large weapons as TH small weapons and Light large weapons as OH small weapons(-4 to attack)
- Light huge weapons as TH small weapons (-6 to attack)
A small Titan Mauler, when "enlarged", may wield :
- TH small weapons as TH or OH weapons (-2 to attack when OH, Jotungrip)
- TH medium weapons as TH small weapons and OH medium weapons as OH small weapons (-2 to attack from oversized weapon)
- TH large weapons as TH small weapons and OH large weapons as OH medium weapons (-4 to attack)
- OH huge weapons as TH small weapons and Light huge weapons as OH small weapons (-6 to attack)
- Light gargantuan weapons as TH small weapons (-8 to attack)
Alright. Am going to do my best to counter-hyper-long-answer. ^_^
I believe I understand well what the Size Doesn't Count class skill is meant to do. And I'm not concerned with other feats just yet. ^_^
My main gripe is that Enlarge Person, The Spell (We'll use the spell as the main example here) is not Harmless; It is Not of pure benefit. And although you can't crush an opponent to death with it, it Does have its drawbacks. It Can be used offensively, and tactically Against the mauler. For example, making them too large to fit through a narrow crevice or doorway.
Some class abilities Do grant immunity to certain effects. Others grant resistance to spells. However, what you have is a low-level ability that Transforms the effects of a spell into something else entirely, whether or not it was used beneficially or harmfully; it turns it into a bonus without any drawbacks.
It was thus my suggestion to add in a Save of some sort, in case an enemy/ally wizard actually Wants to increase the Size of the Titan Mauler. Since Enlarge Person (the spell) actually grants a Fortitude save, I would actually suggest that this class ability comes into effect if the Titan Mauler successfully saves against the Enlarge effect. The class skill itself presents no penalties.
The Reach doesn't concern me much. However, implementing the Fortitude Save into the ability does allow the Titan Mauler to deliberately fail the save, and thus grant themselves the Reach (and other effects) from becoming larger.
okie. Next...
I don't really see where the Titan Mauler is receiving a bonus "because of a lack of penalty" ?
The "to a minimum of -2" was what I was reading. For a Negative Penalty essentially translates to Bonus. However, from your response, I believe this was actually just a misunderstanding.
You are still suggesting that the skill can reduce the penalty by a Maximum of 6 points; You were utilizing an example, there, with the whole "four size categories larger" statement. If I interpret correcting, the Minimum is Hopefully still "0"... And thus, the Titan Mauler does not stand the chance of actually gaining a Bonus from this skill.
I also missed the following rule: "If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all." ((... Although personally I'd love to see a Small creature wield a Gargantuan creature's Arrow or Crossbow Bolt, as if it were a 2 handed spear. =P ...But that's just a joke. ^_^ ))
That said, it clears up a lot with the Massive Weapons. I might suggest re-touching on the wording for the Second portion of that question... We can get to it later.
And to clarify on the rest of it:
-You can gain a Maximum bonus of +1 per weapon size category Larger than yours the weapon is.
-You can gain a Maximum bonus of (1 + 1 for each five levels beyond the third, for a total maximum of +4 at class level 18)
Correct?
You are indeed misinterpretating the ability.
...Alright, for this third and final part, I think I'd like to try my hand at providing Examples, like those you provided, in order to see if I've got it right.... I'm going to stick with the Third set of examples: Using a Small Titan Mauler.
-First, we'll post the original Titan Mauler Jotungrip class ability.
-Next, we'll post Your version.
-Finally, we'll post the Examples.
Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Jotungrip (Ex)
At 2nd level, when a titan mauler is raging, she may wield a weapon as if she was one size category larger, suffering a -2 penalty to attack when doing so. This also allows her to use an appropriately sized two-handed melee weapon as an one-handed weapon. The Titan Mauler still takes the penalty to attack for using an inappropriately sized weapon for her base size (an appropriately sized weapon isn't considered as a weapon one size smaller when using this ability, and thus doesn't give any attack penalty if wielded befittingly).
A small Titan Mauler may wield :
- TH small weapons as TH or OH weapons (-2 to attack when OH, Jotungrip)
- TH medium weapons as TH small weapons and OH medium weapons as OH small weapons (still suffering the -2 to attack from oversized weapon)
- OH large weapons as TH small weapons and Light large weapons as OH small weapons(-4 to attack)
- Light huge weapons as TH small weapons (-6 to attack)
Situations marked with an Asterisk (*) are situations only possible thanks to Jotungrip.
According to the RAW:
A small Titan Mauler may wield :
* TH small weapons as OH weapons (-2 to attack)
- TH small weapons as TH small weapons (1.5 Str bonus)
- OH medium weapons as TH small weapons (-2 to attack) (1.5 Str bonus)
- Light medium weapons as OH small weapons (-2 to attack)
- Light medium weapons as TH small weapons (-2 to attack) (1.5 Str bonus)
- Light large weapons as TH small weapons (-4 to attack) (1.5 Str bonus)
According to Your rules (from what I understand):
A small Titan Mauler may wield :
* TH small weapons as OH small weapons (-2 to attack)
- TH small weapons as TH small weapons (No attack penalty) (1.5 Str bonus)
* TH medium weapons as TH small weapons (-2 to attack) (1.5 Str bonus)
* OH medium weapons as OH small weapons (-2 to attack)
- OH medium weapons as TH small weapons (-2 to attack) (1.5 Str bonus)
* Light medium weapons as Light small weapons (-2 to attack)
* Light medium weapons as TH small weapons (-2 to attack) (1.0 Str Bonus)
- Light medium weapons as OH small weapons (-2 to attack)
- Light medium weapons as TH small weapons (-2 to attack) (1.5 Str bonus)
* Light large weapons as OH small weapons (-4 to attack)
- Light large weapons as TH small weapons (-4 to attack) (1.5 Str bonus)
* Light huge weapons as TH small weapons (-6 to attack) (1.5 Str bonus)
If by RAW, but eliminating the "The weapon must be appropriately sized for her" condition:
A small Titan Mauler may wield :
* TH small weapons as OH small weapons (-2 to attack)
- TH small weapons as TH small weapons (No attack penalty) (1.5 Str bonus)
* TH medium weapons as TH small weapons (-4 to attack) (1.5 Str bonus)
* OH medium weapons as OH small weapons (-4 to attack)
- OH medium weapons as TH small weapons (-2 to attack) (1.5 Str bonus)
- Light medium weapons as OH small weapons (-2 to attack)
- Light medium weapons as TH small weapons (-2 to attack) (1.5 Str bonus)
* Light large weapons as OH small weapons (-6 to attack)
- Light large weapons as TH small weapons (-4 to attack) (1.5 Str bonus)
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Everything seem in order?
There's very little Point being made in the above examples; It's just to show the difference between eliminating the restriction in the RAW rule, and what your new rule proposes. I'm also making sure I understand your rules right.
Keep note that the above examples are only using your "he may wield a weapon as if she was one size category larger, suffering a -2 penalty to attack when doing so" aspect of Juntogrip... still looking into the rest.
Ack... made an error >///<
scratch the "* TH medium weapons as TH small weapons (-4 to attack) (1.5 Str bonus)", under "If by RAW, but eliminating the "The weapon must be appropriately sized for her" condition:"
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Enlarge Person argument
The problem is, nothing stops the Titan Mauler from failing just to get a huge or gargantuan weapon from the first levels. It is not intended as modifying the Enlarge Spell specifically, just as a supernatural effect due to training/tradition so that no Titan Mauler may increase her size. I could simply put immunity to any spell increasing her size, giving her instead the bonuses written in the ability when hit by such a spell... I'll see what people think about it, but you can safely add your suggestion if you use it in your game.
You are still suggesting that the skill can reduce the penalty by a Maximum of 6 points; You were utilizing an example, there, with the whole "four size categories larger" statement. If I interpret correcting, the Minimum is Hopefully still "0"... And thus, the Titan Mauler does not stand the chance of actually gaining a Bonus from this skill.
Of course ! Didn't read, and even less wrote it this way. You get -6 to your penalty, if you have no penalty, left there is no points to which you can apply this, so no bonus. Minimum is 0, or -2 at level 20 with a weapon four sizes bigger.
About the weapon "handling", I can't be clearer than in my previous post, and I think you got it right in your examples.
These rules are horribly complicated and easy at the same time, so it's pretty easy to misinterpretate them and confound weapon sizes/handling/character's size.
The problem is, nothing stops the Titan Mauler from failing just to get a huge or gargantuan weapon from the first levels. It is not intended as modifying the Enlarge Spell specifically, just as a supernatural effect due to training/tradition so that no Titan Mauler may increase her size. I could simply put immunity to any spell increasing her size, giving her instead the bonuses written in the ability when hit by such a spell... I'll see what people think about it, but you can safely add your suggestion if you use it in your game.
...Just throwing another idea out here... How about this:
Apply this ability (Or make it a Choice to use) Only when referring to Enlarge spells and effects that the Titan Mauler attempts to grant Herself. Self-inflicted Enlarges, such as from the Titan Mauler's later skill. In order to affect Enlarge person from other sources, she may make a Dispel check (CL = her Class level); if successful, she may choose to instead retain her actual size, but gain the benefits described in her class ability.
otherwise, you've got a level 2 class ability that grants immunity to a spell&effect, and grants some pretty serious conditional bonuses..
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Finally, I'd remove the additional damage from Massive Weapons, if you plan on keeping your current version of Jotungrip. I think it's unnecessarily overpowered, at that point. Take Thunk, from the last thread, as an example.
Thunk, a Titan Mauler Half-giant.
As a medium creature, he can wield a weapon as large as a Gargantuan Dagger, with Jotungrip. Because he is a half giant, that further increases to a Colossal dagger. If he's Enlarged, he actually wields something Larger than a Colossal-appropriate weapon.
"In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder"
When Raging... Thunk the Titan Mauler can actually wield a Gargantuan-sized object as a Weapon.
Think hard about that.
I don't think Thunk the Barbarian needs a +4 to his damage rolls, when Thunk the Barbarian is swinging around something the size of a Kraken.
Oh. And just in case it Was a Dagger... I believe the damage would be...5 increments higher. so. 1d4 (original) --> 1d6 (1) --> 1d8 (2) ---> 2d6 (3) ---> 3d6 (4) ---> ??? (I actually don't know what 3d6 becomes)
Edit: Oh yeah. Also. That's only a -2 on attack roll, with maxed out Massive Weapons.
Edit 2: Also.. that Kraken-agger doesn't actually grant any form of Reach, if I'm not mistaken. so Thunk could still only hit something within 5 feet, despite wielding something 20 feet long...
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I usually don't take into account any non-core race when writting something, so the non-inclusion of the half-giant is voluntary. Note that by using the original Jotungrip with a half-giant, you are probably the only Titan Mauler able to really do it's job.
The size of the weapons doesn't really count : a medium greatsword is 2d6, a large longsword is 2d6 and -2 to attack, a huge shortsword is 2d6 and -4 to attack. Yep, no benefit, just a penalty.
Your colossal dagger (a dagger FIT for colossal creatures, as a medium dagger isn't the size of a human) deals 4d6, so as much damage as a two handed huge weapon - why don't you use a huge weapon instead so you don't get the -4 additional penalty ?
If you look only at what happens at levels 19 and 20, you are missing the entire cheese possibilities of such class.
The size of the weapons doesn't really count : a medium greatsword is 2d6, a large longsword is 2d6 and -2 to attack, a huge shortsword is 2d6 and -4 to attack. Yep, no benefit, just a penalty.
Your colossal dagger (a dagger FIT for colossal creatures, as a medium dagger isn't the size of a human) deals 4d6, so as much damage as a two handed huge weapon - why don't you use a huge weapon instead so you don't get the -4 additional penalty ?
If you really want to look at it by RAW, then no, there's no point to having a 20 foot hunk of metal to swing around for the same effect of a greatsword half its size. But, that's just something your ability grants; Combined with massive weapons ( the original) it basically grants you the Option to use any such massive weaponry, with little to no penalty.
I wasn't aware I was looking at level 19s or 20s alone; a titan mauler would be able to do everything mentioned above at as low as level 2, correct? Just with much less penalty-reduction.
...By RAW, no real bonus exists; But I'm pretty sure that if you could convince your GM that you're capable of wielding a weapon roughly 4 times your height, and many times your size... There will be consequences, to those around you.
Personally, I'm hoping that you could wield party members or enemies as "improvised weapons"; the Half-giant and Your jotungrip would allow you to basically pick up a Huge sized creature as a Huge-designated two-handed weapon. How's that for a grapple check?
Anyways...
Thanks for the discussions; I think I should actually make it my purpose to research Why and How the Original Jotungrip exists, and what the benefits are to wielding a TH weapon in a single hand.
Goodluck with the rest of your homebrew. ^_^
Oh... and you Might want to add in a Strength bonus of some sort instead, for Massive Weapons, in order to be able to actually Lift those things.
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At level 2, the Titan Mauler may indeed wield a weapon four sizes bigger if enlarged, but it would still take a -8 penalty to attack and no real bonus to damage, when he could be using a weapon smaller but bigger for the same damage. Hence why I am saying you seem to look only on later levels when you point to the fact a medium half-giant could wield a gargantuan weapon at level 2. He may, indeed, but there is no point in doing so if the Titan Mauler may use a smaller weapon with the same damage and a better to-hit. The bonus to damage when wielding bigger weapons is meant to provide an actual benefit to a Titan Mauler deciding to use big weapons.
As said in a previous post, the most optimized choice for a Titan Mauler is actually a simple, one-size-bigger bastard sword with the exotic proficiency. This is the most versatile, powerful and easy to use weapon ever in a Titan Mauler progression. Bigger weapons are circumstancials, lighter aren't what a TM is here for.
I'm all for players convincing their DM to be kind and comprehensive about how awesome their character is, but I like it better when it is written that you have such bonus when using an ability. A class shouldn't depend on the DM being comprehensive and voluntarily bending rules to be usable.
For using enemies as melee weapons, check the Body Blundgeon rage power, I think your barbarian will love it... :o)
Thanks for your opinion, it's always good to hear about someone about their view of a class/archetype.
(Also, a barbarian already gets a strength bonus, they basically lift one-size bigger weapons for free at level 1 when raging... ;o) ).
Re-worded to make a little bit more sense (as you said, english is not your first language), and this is what I believe the Titan Mauler should have been by it's fluff. Indeed, the background of Amiri highly leads me to believe this was indeed the intended purpose.
Good job. I'll have to bring this to my DM and see if he'll let me run it. If I'm reading it right it doesn't really start getting it's major usage out of huge weaponry till much later levels, right?
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Thanks, I'm glad you liked the revision ! ;)
Indeed, you may not have a "major usage" out of huge weaponry until later levels, since usually you are better off using a weapon several sizes smaller doing the same damage for less attack penalty. But at least, you may now loot big creatures when you badly need it, in accordance to the original's Titan Mauler's purpose. This also allows a Titan Mauler to improvise cartoonishly huge weapons, like wielding a stone column from a temple or catching the king's throne to use it as a weapon, should she be deprived of her usual one. I'll be honest, I wanted more to get the Berserk manga's Guts flavor (and thus, the iconic barbarian Amiri's one) than the original one, but you can play it both way without any problem - using really big weapons is hard but may be more than convenient during a campaign, while using just big weapons makes your damage constantly good and provides you with versatility.
As said previously, you may even want to invest in a large bastard sword and the EWP feat for it, so you can wield it both two-handed with a -2 penalty, or one-handed with a -4 penalty at level 1 while raging. When you are on higher levels and enlarged/in rending rage, you may want to wield a 3d8 huge bastard sword (I would suggest you to enhance your original weapon, maybe with a permanent Enlarge Effect ? By RAW, when you grow in size as a Titan Mauler, your weapon don't, but if you enlarge it separately, you gain the benefits and drawbacks of it), that you will be able to use with a -4 penalty two-handed or a -6 penalty one-handed before any penalty reduction from the Massive Weapons ability.
2d8 damage instead of 1d10 with no penalty at low-to-mid levels will prove efficient if you focus on Vital Strike chain and feats : at level 11, with 18 starting strength, when raging, with the Vital Strike and Devastating Strike feats, a +2 Keen Large bastard sword and with a +4 Str item, you are going for a possible 6d8+15(Str)+9(PA)+2(Mag)+4(DS)+1(Weap.Size) = 2d8+4d8+31 17-20x2. If enlarged and using a Huge bastard sword : 3d8+6d8+33 17-20x2(+2 Weap.Size and +1 Size). At level 14, you hit even harder when you do only one strike during the round (even if this still doesn't compare with a full-round attack, especialy if you are hasted) : 2(3d8+33)+6d8 17-20x2. This first attack may even be the first attack of a Cleave, that if you fully invested feats on (Cleaving Finish), allows you to attack an adjacent creature twice if you put the first down with the first hit (note that only the first attack of a cleave gains the damage bonus from rending rage).
- Hum, i know this is quite late, but with a friend, we where working on a few fixes for the titan mauler ... mostly coz i'm playing one (a kobold to be precize ^^U)
Our main complain with the archetype is the jotungrip, an as i read in the post, i wasn't the only one who thought that this ability seems to have no synergy with the rest of the class, and the massive weapon, in one hand is kinda cool, but ... after a while is quite ineffective
- So my friend and i had an idea and i would love to share it so i can make a proper and balanced fix for this character,
before saying anything, i know, kobolds are probably the WORST race for a barbarian, but belive me i'm having lot of fun with it, more, since my dm give me an extra boost for the strengh
enough of introductions here is my two cents:
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Jotungrip:
At 2nd level, While raging a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Massive Weapons (Ex)
At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted or crafted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of -2 when whielding weapons four size categories larger).
At level 6 , while is raging, the titan mauler consider the weapon of one size category larger than him as appropriate for his size
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- The main idea is that not only that the titan mauler can use the weapons of one size category larger than him without major problems and in that way, it can synergize well with jotungrip (both while raging in order to keep some control), but also, to keep the mechanic for the archetype simple and close to the original as possible
- Another idea that we had was, in case that this might seems over powered, that the use of both ability together consume an extra round of rage but seems to much may be at later levels with the titanic rage that already do that
any suggestion are more than welcomed, and thanks for reading! ^^