Hi everybody from Spain !!!
Last game session my group had serious doubts about grappling rules.
I've already read some messageboards about the topic, but I wasn't able to find an official answer that settled the question.
Neither is in the FAQ Archive.So I don't know very well how apply the rule.
When a grappled PC has a penalty of -4 Dex and -2 to hit rolls, and when he loses his Dex bonus against opponents that are not grappling with him (as listed in combat chart)?
Please, could someone give my a clue about the matter.
Thank you very much.
Exactly what are you asking about?
When grappled, both you and the opponent whether it be npc or pc have the grappled condition, i.e. -4 Dex, a -2 to attack rolls, and a -2 to CMB rolls except those to escape the grapple. Yes both will be losing all of this to each other and everyone around them.
If you have the grappled condition you have a -4 penalty to dex. You only lose dex to AC if you are pinned.
edit:clarification-->Both the grappler and the victim have a -4 penalty to dex. That dex is against anyone that attacks either person.
But in the Combat Chart you have this...
Table: Armor Class Modifiers Defender is… Melee Ranged
Behind cover +4 +4
Blinded –21 –21
Concealed or invisible See Concealment
Cowering –21 –21
Entangled +02 +02
Flat-footed +01 +01
Grappling (but attacker is not) +01 +01
Helpless –43 +03
Kneeling or sitting –2 +2
Pinned –43 +03
Prone –4 +4
Squeezing through a space –4 –4
Stunned –21 –21
1 The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC.
2 An entangled character takes a –4 penalty to Dexterity.
3 The defender is flat-footed and cannot add his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class.So is a foe around a grapple attack either the grappler or the grappled (both with grappled condition), he could, for example, make a sneak attack if he were a rogue.
I was partially incorrect. Only the victim in the grapples loses dex to AC, but both of them still have a -4 penalty to dex.
Here is why.
Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices).
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
The grapple text says that the grappler and victim gain the grappled condition which I bolded. The grappled condition says if you are grappled you get a -4 to dex. The grapple section in combat also says "see the Appendices" which is that chart. The chart says that only the victim of the grapple loses dex to AC. because the number 1 means "1 The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC."
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I think the table is in error, a failure to make the change from the 3.5 rules in all the possible places.
As I understand things, when you are grappling and thus have the Grappled condition you lose -4 to Dex score against everyone, including the person you are grappling with (so remember to recalculate your CMD and Escape Artist modifier and if you have Agile Manoouevres your CMB too!). You also suffer a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple.
If one character manages to Pin the opponent then the character being Pinned is no longer considered Grappled (despite what the GM Screen says) as PFRPG p568 states "Pinned is a more severe version of
grappled, and their effects do not stack." Therefore the Pinned character no longer suffers the -4 to Dex score, but is flatfooted and suffers an additional -4 to AC (so CMD loses Dex bonus and also suffers the -4 penalty).
However the pinning character is still considered Grappled (and so suffers -4 to Dex Score) but in addition also loses his Dexterity Bonus to AC (so if his Dex Score is normally 16+ his CMD is even worse than when just Grappling - which interestingly makes it easier to escape a grapple when you are pinned than when just grappling.
Basically, I feel the PFRPG grapple rules are a mess, worse than D&D3.5 which is a little complicated but at least internally consistent with all the rules in one area rather than spread across several chapters of the rulebook and contradictory in places.
Ok then.
Now I have understood. Thank you.
It's a little complicated, or maybe not very clearly written.
So, a team of grappler monk with a rogue partner is truly deadly...
Thank you again for your answer.
I think all the rules should be in one place, but it is what it is.
I think the table is in error, a failure to make the change from the 3.5 rules in all the possible places.
As I understand things, when you are grappling and thus have the Grappled condition you lose -4 to Dex score against everyone, including the person you are grappling with (so remember to recalculate your CMD and Escape Artist modifier and if you have Agile Manoouevres your CMB too!). You also suffer a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple.
If one character manages to Pin the opponent then the character being Pinned is no longer considered Grappled (despite what the GM Screen says) as PFRPG p568 states "Pinned is a more severe version of
grappled, and their effects do not stack." Therefore the Pinned character no longer suffers the -4 to Dex score, but is flatfooted and suffers an additional -4 to AC (so CMD loses Dex bonus and also suffers the -4 penalty).However the pinning character is still considered Grappled (and so suffers -4 to Dex Score) but in addition also loses his Dexterity Bonus to AC (so if his Dex Score is normally 16+ his CMD is even worse than when just Grappling - which interestingly makes it easier to escape a grapple when you are pinned than when just grappling.
Basically, I feel the PFRPG grapple rules are a mess, worse than D&D3.5 which is a little complicated but at least internally consistent with all the rules in one area rather than spread across several chapters of the rulebook and contradictory in places.
I never realized the pinner lost dex to AC also. That is silly. If I spend a feat to do something I don't want to get additional penalties for succeeding at it twice.
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I never realized the pinner lost dex to AC also. That is silly. If I spend a feat to do something I don't want to get additional penalties for succeeding at it twice.
This has been either FAQd or errata'd. I'll look around and see which it is, but noone loses their Dex to AC when grappled in Pathfinder.
Grapple: There are some contradictions between the various rules on grappling. What is correct?
To sum up the correct rules:1) Grappling does not deny you your Dex bonus to AC, whether you are the grappler or the target.
2) A grappled creature can still make a full attack.
3) Being pinned does not make you flat-footed, but you are denied your Dex bonus.
Update: Page 195—In Table 8–6: Armor Class Modifiers, in the entry for Grappling, delete the superscript “1” after the +0 in the Melee and Ranged columns. In the third footnote, change “flat-footed and cannot add his Dexterity bonus” to “denied its Dexterity bonus”
Update: Page 201—In the If You Are Grappled section, in the fourth sentence, change “any action that requires only one hand to perform” to “any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform.” In the fourth sentence, change “make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon” to “make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon”
Update: Page 568—In the Pinned condition, in the second sentence, change “flat-footed” to “denied its Dexterity bonus.”
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/30/11
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I never realized the pinner lost dex to AC also. That is silly. If I spend a feat to do something I don't want to get additional penalties for succeeding at it twice.This has been either FAQd or errata'd. I'll look around and see which it is, but noone loses their Dex to AC when grappled in Pathfinder.
If this is the case then I would be keen to see an errata (it can't be a FAQ as to say a pinner doesn't lose Dex bonus to AC is a direct contradiction of the rule book).
I never realized the pinner lost dex to AC also. That is silly. If I spend a feat to do something I don't want to get additional penalties for succeeding at it twice.This has been either FAQd or errata'd. I'll look around and see which it is, but noone loses their Dex to AC when grappled in Pathfinder.
Well it makes sense, grappling is more or less dropping the ball on everything else to bring down this one PITA guy. When you see 2 people rolling on the floor wrestling, You kind of note the fact that they are only focused on fighting and defending against eachother and that both sides are completely vulnerable to anyone on the outside.
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If this is the case then I would be keen to see an errata (it can't be a FAQ as to say a pinner doesn't lose Dex bonus to AC is a direct contradiction of the rule book).I never realized the pinner lost dex to AC also. That is silly. If I spend a feat to do something I don't want to get additional penalties for succeeding at it twice.This has been either FAQd or errata'd. I'll look around and see which it is, but noone loses their Dex to AC when grappled in Pathfinder.
I edited my post above with the FAQ quote. Remember that Paizo only produces errata when they do another printing. Until then the FAQ fulfills the same purpose.
Here's the link to the faq entry.
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Here's the link to the faq entry.
Thanks, but that doesn't seem to contradict the bit where if you are pinning someone you lose your dex bonus to AC.
The FAQ states "Grappling does not deny you your Dex bonus to AC, whether you are the grappler or the target" - I agree with that, the act of grappling does not deny you your dex bonus to AC, however the act of pinning or being pinned does.
Like I said, Grappling in PF is a mess.
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Remember that Paizo only produces errata when they do another printing. Until then the FAQ fulfills the same purpose.
This also doesn't make sense to me, you can put out errata without the need to do a new printing, admittedly for formatting purposes the errata that finally gets printed may not be exactly what was originally put forward, but you can do it - WotC do it for 4e.
FAQ for me is clarification on stuff that is vague, possibly omitted or open to interpretation. Errata is for stuff that is simply wrong and in need of correcting, at least IMHO.
I would never have questioned whether the pinner losing Dex Bonus to AC was unintended because it is very clearly written to be the rule. So if it is errata it may never get to be a FAQ.
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Here's the link to the faq entry.Thanks, but that doesn't seem to contradict the bit where if you are pinning someone you lose your dex bonus to AC.
The FAQ states "Grappling does not deny you your Dex bonus to AC, whether you are the grappler or the target" - I agree with that, the act of grappling does not deny you your dex bonus to AC, however the act of pinning or being pinned does.
Like I said, Grappling in PF is a mess.
Sorry, I wasn't actually reading the last few posts very closely and didn't notice that the discussion had moved on to the effects of pinning and being pinned. So I was really responding to the posts above yours that referenced the combat table saying you lose your dex when being grappled.
You're right, the pinned person and the pinner are both denied dex to AC.
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Remember that Paizo only produces errata when they do another printing. Until then the FAQ fulfills the same purpose.This also doesn't make sense to me, you can put out errata without the need to do a new printing, admittedly for formatting purposes the errata that finally gets printed may not be exactly what was originally put forward, but you can do it - WotC do it for 4e.
FAQ for me is clarification on stuff that is vague, possibly omitted or open to interpretation. Errata is for stuff that is simply wrong and in need of correcting, at least IMHO.
I would never have questioned whether the pinner losing Dex Bonus to AC was unintended because it is very clearly written to be the rule. So if it is errata it may never get to be a FAQ.
I agree with you here, seems silly to me to hold off on errata until a new printing comes out, but that's Paizo's firm stance. It is what it is. I'm assuming that stuff in the FAQ that is prefaced with 'Update: Page xxx' will be making it into the next errata, but there's no way to be sure until it's out I guess.
Here's the link to the faq entry.Thanks, but that doesn't seem to contradict the bit where if you are pinning someone you lose your dex bonus to AC.
The FAQ states "Grappling does not deny you your Dex bonus to AC, whether you are the grappler or the target" - I agree with that, the act of grappling does not deny you your dex bonus to AC, however the act of pinning or being pinned does.
Like I said, Grappling in PF is a mess.
Sorry, I wasn't actually reading the last few posts very closely and didn't notice that the discussion had moved on to the effects of pinning and being pinned. So I was really responding to the posts above yours that referenced the combat table saying you lose your dex when being grappled.
You're right, the pinned person is flat footed and the pinner is denied his dex to AC.
NM.
I'm gonna threadjack and necromance this thread, as the title corresponds well with my question...
There's another important part in the new FAQ; the part about full attacks: "In the fourth sentence, change “make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon” to “make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon”".
It seems to indicate that the target of your grapple can make a full attack with a "light or one-handed weapon". This includes unarmed attacks, but does it also include natural attacks? And does this mean that your target is free to full attack you, while you can only damage the target with one attack (as under the grapple rules)?
It seems to indicate that the target of your grapple can make a full attack with a "light or one-handed weapon". This includes unarmed attacks, but does it also include natural attacks?
I think "natural weapons" is a subset of "light weapons", but it's not 100% clear.
E.g.
Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
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Natural attacks are always considered light & one handed so the rules already cover that.
As for the full attack question, yup they can. If you grapple someone they can unleash a world of pain on you while they have the grappled condition.
The upside is the standard action after you grapple them you can apply a Pin and they can't do anything but try to break out of that. The standard action after that you tie them up and they are doe.
Grapple is a PITA condition to work with but it opens up so much if you can just absorb one full round attack.
Yeah, I figured that was the case, but thanks for clearing it up for me hogarth and Math :)
It seems that it might often be a bad idea to grapple a tiger (or its equivalent), but that seems kinda fair ;)
But my synthesist / maneuver master monk seems like he might be able to down a lot of bosses with a grapple, without too much of a hassle.