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Just finished a session where there were a few questions wrt an oversized falcatta.
While I think we got the rules right... there was some confusion about the way it was presented.
Falcatta - 1 handed weapon, thus one size smaller than the intended wielder (wielder was medium, so weapon size is small) Dmg 1d8
1st upsize
Falcatta - 2 handed weapon (both wielder and weapon are medium, no penalties) Dmg 2d6
2nd upsize
Falcatta - 2 handed oversized (wielder medium, weapon is large, -2 penalty to use, -4 if not proficient) Dmg 3d6
Is this correct or was there something else that was missed?
Edit'd for a typo.
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A falcata is a one-handed weapon. A Medium falcata is the intended size of this weapon type for a Medium creature. As you say, it's a one-handed weapon that does 1d8 damage.
"First upsize" makes it a Large falcata, doing 2d6 damage. A Medium creature uses it as a two-handed weapon and takes a -2 penalty.
Increasing it to one size larger than two-handed makes it too big for a Medium creature to use.
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From the PRD 'quote'
Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder. 'end quote'
This seems to indicate that a one handed weapon used by a medium creature is size small, not medium. So that making it 2-handed would make it the same size, which means you can increase it to large for 2-handed use (with a penalty for oversize).
Edit't to indicate from PRD.
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Btw, before anyone starts quote Amiri's large bastard sword...
A bastard sword is a 2-handed martial weapon, ergo it is already medium sized. So it can only be upsized once.
The feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) would allow Amiri to use a bastard sword in one hand...but does not change the actual size of the sword.
I look to the upgrading of shortsword (light) to longsword (1-hand) to greatsword (2-hand)
For a medium creature the short sword is diminutive (2 sizes smaller than the user.
Longsword is a small weapon.
Greatsword is a medium weapon.
Which means that a medium user can weild a large greatsword (3d6, -2 to hit).
Instead of quoting all the wrong rules how about you simply quote the ones for this specific thing:
Weapon SizeEvery weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
It's not based on the weapon's size but on the size of the creature the weapon is intended to be used by.
Instead of quoting all the wrong rules how about you simply quote the ones for this specific thing:
It's not based on the weapon's size but on the size of the creature the weapon is intended to be used by.
Weapon SizeEvery weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
Which means a falcata can be made large making it a 2 handed weapon with a -2 penalty, anything more than that for a medium creature and it cannot be wielded. If I am not mistaken. :)
Which means a falcata can be made large making it a 2 handed weapon with a -2 penalty, anything more than that for a medium creature and it cannot be wielded. If I am not mistaken. :)
Correct. This Large Falcata (wieldable 2hd by a medium creature) would then register as a medium object.
Confusing enough?
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Nope, apparently I'm still confused.
I was following the logic of using the longsword as an example.
Longsword 1-handed, increase the size and you get a greatsword 2-handed, increase the size again to a large greatsword and you have your oversized weapoon with a -2 to hit.
Using that logic:
Falcata 1-handed, increase the size and you get a 'great' falcata 2-handed, increase the size again to a large falcata and you have your oversized weapon with a -2 to hit.
I believe the idea of the actual weapon size does matter in determining what weapon can actually be used by the wielder. If you had a huge weapon, the medium creature can not use it.
The damage table for Small & Medium is for an appropriately sized weapon, so a Falcatta for a medium creature is a small weapon, and you can go upto a large weapon. That is two weapon size increases.
Nope, apparently I'm still confused.
I was following the logic of using the longsword as an example.
Longsword 1-handed, increase the size and you get a greatsword 2-handed, increase the size again to a large greatsword and you have your oversized weapoon with a -2 to hit.Using that logic:
Falcata 1-handed, increase the size and you get a 'great' falcata 2-handed, increase the size again to a large falcata and you have your oversized weapon with a -2 to hit.I believe the idea of the actual weapon size does matter in determining what weapon can actually be used by the wielder. If you had a huge weapon, the medium creature can not use it.
The damage table for Small & Medium is for an appropriately sized weapon, so a Falcatta for a medium creature is a small weapon, and you can go upto a large weapon. That is two weapon size increases.
The problem is that your logic is incorrect based on the portion of rules you omitted from your quote that Abraham spalding included in his post.
If a weapon is normally 1 handed for a Medium creature, you can use one designed for a Large creature as a 2 handed weapon. You cannot use a 1 handed weapon designed for a Huge creature.
If a weapon is normally considered a Light Weapon for a Medium creature, you can use one designed for a Large creature as a 1 handed weapon (i.e. lose Weapon Finesse) or one designed for a Huge creature as a 2 handed weapon.
Edit for clarification: The Inappropriately Sized Weapon penalty applies to any weapon not designed for your size category. If my Human Paladin wanted to use a Small Glaive as a 1-handed weapon, I would be taking a -2 penalty on attacks. If my Human Paladin instead wanted to use a Huge Kukri, I'd be taking a -4 to my attacks (-2 for each size category).
The penalty does not magically appear to allow you to use Large 2-handed weapons with a Medium character. A Medium character CANNOT EVER USE a Large 2-handed weapon, a Huge 1-handed weapon, or a Gargantuan Light Weapon without having their size changed first.
Medium Shortsword (for Medium sized user) - light weapon, tiny object
Large Shortsword (for Large sized user) - light for Large user -> 1h for Medium user (at -2), small object
Huge Shortsword (for Huge sized user) - light for Huge user -> 1h for Large user (at -2) -> 2h for Medium user (at -4), medium object
Medium Longsword (for Medium sized user) - 1h weapon, small object
Large Longsword (for Large sized user) - 1h for Large user -> 2h for Medium user (at -2), medium object
Huge Longsword (for Huge sized user) - 1h for Huge user -> 2h for Large user (at -2) -> beyond 2h for Medium user (unusable), large object
Medium Greatsword (for Medium sized user) - 2h weapon, medium object
Large Greatsword (for Large sized user) - 2h for Large user -> beyond 2h for Medium user (unusable), large object
See a pattern? The weapon starts to get 2h once its object size class equals your creature size class, no matter what type it is for its intended user.
Falcata: See Longsword
Now, I must admit I'm not much of a fan of this ruleset (if you're proficient with a Shortsword but not a Longsword, you can technically just use a large Shortsword (1h weapon for you) and only get -2 on your attacks, as opposed to -4 when using a proper Longsword)... but that's another topic.
(Edit: Had one Longsword among the Shortsword examples)
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Medium Shortsword (for Medium sized user) - light weapon, tiny object
Large Shortsword (for Large sized user) - light for Large user -> 1h for Medium user (at -2), small object
Huge Longsword (for Huge sized user) - light for Huge user -> 1h for Large user (at -2) -> 2h for Medium user (at -4), medium objectMedium Longsword (for Medium sized user) - 1h weapon, small object
Large Longsword (for Large sized user) - 1h for Large user -> 2h for Medium user (at -2), medium object
Huge Longsword (for Huge sized user) - 1h for Huge user -> 2h for Large user (at -2) -> beyond 2h for Medium user (unusable), large objectMedium Greatsword (for Medium sized user) - 2h weapon, medium object
Large Greatsword (for Large sized user) - 2h for Large user -> beyond 2h for Medium user (unusable), large objectSee a pattern? The weapon starts to get 2h once its object size class equals your creature size class, no matter what type it is for its intended user.
Falcata: See Longsword
Now, I must admit I'm not much of a fan of this ruleset (if you're proficient with a Shortsword but not a Longsword, you can technically just use a large Shortsword (1h weapon for you) and only get -2 on your attacks, as opposed to -4 when using a proper Longsword)... but that's another topic.
Thanks Midnight Angel, that was apparently the part I needed to see to understand the flaw in my logic.