I use quite a few computer programs and websites for my gaming these days, and the use of these utilities is growing. I want to talk for a minute about what I see changing in the realm of RPG's thanks to tools like these.
So first I'll talk about the tools I use:
d20Pro
This is what's called a "Virtual Tabletop" or VTT. There are a lot of them out there, each with different strengths and weaknesses. Some are free, some pay, some even subscription. Some are easy to use, some very complex. Some are rules agnostic (meaning you can play any game), some have numerous rules systems they support, and some are specific to one system. Some automate more rules, some less, and some have no rules automation at all. Some have voice (or even video) chat capabilities, while others only support text chat.
Regardless of the differences, what all VTTs have in common is that they are a shared board or map with a chat function and the ability to roll dice in some way. That way you can connect with people over the internet from anywhere and play RPG's with them. Now the people you can game with is no longer limited to the meager selection in your local area of people that don't want to play the same game. Now, when you're sick, you don't have to miss the game for fear of getting everyone else sick.
It's an amazing concept, and has uses outside of network play. It allows you in a face to face game the capablity of beautiful maps and custom miniatures, or automating rules to make things simpler, so you can concentrate on the story and roleplaying, rather than the rules. It can even make sharing secret notes with other players much less conspicuous, or showing players pictures of NPC's, monsters, or other beautiful handouts. All this without wasting paper. or spending tons of money on map (tiles), miniatures, or other physical props. Most even support on the fly tile mapping, allowing you to lay your dungeon out before your players as you go. All have some, at least rudimentary, fog of war, allowing you to hide or reveal the map as you like. As you can see, even the simplest of these is a powerful tool that can enhance games either over the internet or face to face.
The VTT that I use is called d20Pro. It has heavy rules automation for any d20 based system, and since I'm a Pathfinder player for the most part, that's perfect for me. d20 is a pretty rules heavy system (though it doesn't touch systems such as GURPS or the Hero System), and being able to concentrate more on the game rather than the rules helps me out a lot with GMing, and allows me more thought to my character rather than his abilities when playing.
A few other highlights of d20Pro, and some of the things that might be in the future point towards even more freedom in roleplaying thanks to technology. First off, you can import characters from DDI (for 4E) or Hero Lab (the character creator/manager I talk about later) (for 3.5/PF) directly into d20Pro. There has even been some talk on their forum (by users) of the idea of a direct link, allowing you to alter your character in one, and have it reflected in the other. The developers have seen this discussion and have said the possibility, though not any time soon, could be a possibility. Another future development (that is almost here, they're just finishing beta testing) is a marketplace, where you can buy adventures, or even whole campaigns, all set up for you in d20Pro. More on what this could mean later.
Hero Lab
There aren't many Character Creator programs out there, especially not ones that concentrate on anything other than D&D and/or d20 systems. Most of them are really buggy and rife with contradictions to the way the actual rules work. But at the top of this heap is Hero Lab. Hero Lab is a program that can handle pretty much any RPG system, as is demonstrated by the systems they already officially support: D&D 3.5/4E and Pathfinder, Mutants & Masterminds (2nd & 3rd edition), Shadowrun, nWoD, Call of Cthulu, Savage Worlds, and even Cortex (no longer available due to lisencing issues). It was even originally being developed for GURPS before SJG decided to do their character creator in house. Some of the user projects that have seen good development is the old West End Games Star Wars D6 game, and Star Wars SAGA edition (though neither are complete).
Not only does Hero Lab support all these different systems, but it supports ALL the options, and calculates them correctly (though the 3.5 rules have problems). It's very complete in what it does. You don't just make a character with this, it's a full on rules integrated character sheet, with experience, loot, gear, magic items (with effects applied) etc. You can even apply the effects of conditions or spells to reflect your current abilities, bonuses, etc. accurately. You can deal with health and damage (even nonlethal), complex rules like two weapon fighting, even durations, and your spellbook and memorized spells. It even tracks in just as much detail your animal companions, mounts, cohorts, eidolons, etc. You can even put a whole party together in one portfolio, with all the mounts and cohorts, etc, and then import monsters on the fly for encounters, all with the ability to track all effects on them. All this, with every single item on display with an easy mouse hover or click away from the rules explaining EXACTLY what that ability/item/feat/skill does or means.
It's not just for characters either. GM's can use it to make NPC's, or advance monsters. With the built in data editor you can even create monsters, add items, spells, abilities, classes, feats, house rules, etc. It even has an initiative tracker that is quite sophisticated, including flat-footed creatures, etc. It also includes an easy to use stat block tool that makes for simple posting of anything you've made in plain text, BBCode, Wiki text, HTML, etc. Meaning you can easily put the stats for your characters anywhere. It also, as stated before, can export anything you've made to d20Pro, as well as Fantasy Grounds II (another VTT).
Infrno
This has a VTT as one of its main selling points, but I don't really care about that, that's nothing new in the game anymore (except the built in browser based video chat support). What really excites me about this tool is the social network part of it. It's facebook, for gamers! You have your Player Profile, which is linked to all of your Character Profiles. Your Player Profile also links to any games you're running or playing, and your character profiles link to the games that they are in. Your character profiles also link to character sheets for those characters. When you make a game, you can let other people search it and register to join your game, complete with prospective character (or not). Each page, personal, character, and game has a blog, and public and private notes. There are comment features on all of the pages, as well as the blogs. They even use the game/character registration system to run digital gamcing conventions! But one of the coolest features of Infrno, at least for me, and again pointing towards the eventual future of RPGs, is the fact that you can, when creating a game, you can connect d20Pro to your game. This allows players with d20Pro to just click on the button on your game page, and it will launch d20Pro and connect them to your game for them.
Pathfinder Reference Document and d20pfsrd.com
Now instead of having to look a rule up in a book, you can just search a site. You can also copy/paste it to help end rules arguments, or to fill out the abilities on your character sheet.
Realm Works
This tool actually isn't out yet, so I don't use it, but this is one of the tools I'm most excited about, I've even put off paying for another similar service that I can get now in favor of waiting until these much better tools come out. It also represents another branch of what I see as the future of RPGs, and that's why I'm talking about it here. Realm Works is to campaigns and adventures what Hero Lab is to characters, a tool to easily and quickly, but still completely and correctly, put together, change, and manage a storyline with maps, npc's, flowcharts, etc. all linked together. Also, all instances of characters or creatures can link directly to their Hero Lab portfolio. GM's can share this information is some way online that I don't quite understand. Honestly, with all the different tools that could help a GM out, I can see this utility going a million different places, and like Hero Lab grew into the comprehensive character program it is now, I'm sure Realm Works will become the comprehensive campaign management software.
PDF's
Then there's the technology that is fueling pretty much every single one of these other technologies. PDFs and other forms of e-books or electronic media. Now the books that aren't provided free on the internet can fit on your hard drive, and can be just a double click away from reference, and with how most gaming PDFs these days are gettting extensive bookmarking and cross-linking, looking things up has never been easier. Also, with official PDFs, you can use programs to strip all the images out of them, giving you the handouts from the adventure, the NPC and monster pictures to use as minis or to show to players, maps with or without text and markers (DM and player maps). You can copy/paste boxed text into chats for ease of descriptions.
What's it all mean?
Does it mean that, with all this rules automation and character managers that tell you if your character isn't valid, that people aren't gonna have to know the rules? No. People still won't be able to make characters that actually do what they want them to, or are maybe even viable, without knowing the rules, and neither will they know what all they can do. Besides, there will always be corner cases, and places where a GM is gonna have to make a call.
Does it mean that RPGs and video games are going to become even more alike, and thus just making things more like WoW? One could argue that, but I don't think so. With the ability to dismiss any ruling that the software makes, it still remains a human game. Besides, a computer game still can't account for you doing things outside of the "rules." A GM can, whether he's in front of you, or in front of a computer screen halfway across the world.
What will it do?
I think that we will see more integration between VTTs, character managers, campaign managers, and social networks. I think at some point, you're gonna have Realm Works maps that link to d20Pro combat encounters. You're gonna have d20Pro character sheets that link directly with Hero Lab portfolios. You're gonna see Infrno character profiles that link to Hero Lab portfolios instead of character sheets. You're gonna see Hero Lab portfolios and d20Pro campaign and Realm Works files that you can access from anywhere. You'll be able to play, or even GM, regardless of where you are, and have all your characters, notes, and campaign work open to you everywhere, without having to lug around a notebook and numerous heavy books, and have it all be better organized than you could do physically.
You're gonna see everything integrate to the point where you may still have to know the rules, but you're never gonna have to worry about whether they're being enforced, or if a calculation was incorrect, or if you wrote a specific thing down on your character sheet.
You're gonna see a random encounter table from Realm Works make a roll, come up with white dragon, and automatically open in your d20Pro program an appropriate encounter map with the dragon already on it, and you're gonna see d20Pro award experience to the character's Hero Lab profile after an encounter is finished.
You're gonna see that the 6'3" 215 lb. football player can play the little sneaky halfling, and his size won't destroy your sense of disbelief, because he's not physically there for you to see.
You're gonna see games where player knowledge is no longer the kind of problem it has been in the past, because you'll be able to split the party, and actually not have them know what the other half is doing, because they can't see or hear them, and to do this, you don't have to pick everything up and move it to another room, then walk back and forth between the two to be able to GM for both sides.
Basically, I see all these tools not only making games easier to play, but deepening the cooperative storytelling aspect of RPG's, as the barriers that RPG's had to it; nuanced rules that you have to pay close attention to to make sure they're being implemented correctly, metagaming knowledge, and the physical disconnect between a player and the type of character they're playing, are stripped away by this new technology.
So not only will you be able to find a quick 3 hour pick up game while you're waiting at the greyhound bus station, but the stories that you tell with your games will only get better and better.
Honestly, I'm so excited to see what these new technologies will actually be able to do. What do you guys think?
Maybe I'm being a curmudgeonly SOB...but I do not allow any kind of Digital Media to be used at my gaming table. Anyone pulls out so mauch as a cell phone for anything other than actually making a phone call gets booted from the table. I still use multiple sheets of "dead-tree", actual dead-tree print edition of books...including printing any all PDFs, real-solid-tactile-use dice, maps are drawn on dead-tree or with dry-erase and a battlemat.
As for what you see will happen with the above software, my own perspective...
What will it do?
I think that we will see more integration between VTTs, character managers, campaign managers, and social networks. I think at some point, you're gonna have Realm Works maps that link to d20Pro combat encounters. You're gonna have d20Pro character sheets that link directly with Hero Lab portfolios. You're gonna see Infrno character profiles that link to Hero Lab portfolios instead of character sheets. You're gonna see Hero Lab portfolios and d20Pro campaign and Realm Works files that you can access from anywhere. You'll be able to play, or even GM, regardless of where you are, and have all your characters, notes, and campaign work open to you everywhere, without having to lug around a notebook and numerous heavy books, and have it all be better organized than you could do physically.
Personally, I find this a scary concept. For one, Digital media is more easily corrupted and destroyed than dead-tree edition, especially with the wireless connectivity boom that is taking place and the increased connectivity with everyone.
You're gonna see everything integrate to the point where you may still have to know the rules, but you're never gonna have to worry about whether they're being enforced, or if a calculation was incorrect, or if you wrote a specific thing down on your character sheet.
This point lends support to the argument a buddy of mine made about computers and digital media in general...as efficient as these 'tools' allow everyone to become, that efficiency has the extreme and undeniable drawback of making those who use them lazy.
....I can still recall the 18, 19, and 20 year old kids from the applied physics course I had to take (this was 4 years ago, when I was 34) to complete my degree...they pitched a fit when the professor told them that "Any idiot can plug numbers into a calculator to get an answer. In this room, calculators are barred from use. All work will be written out step-by-step so that I can direct you to where you've made a mistake." I had no problem with this. The kids had to have some review of some basic algebra and trig before the class could get into the meat of what we were there for in the first place.You're gonna see a random encounter table from Realm Works make a roll, come up with white dragon, and automatically open in your d20Pro program an appropriate encounter map with the dragon already on it, and you're gonna see d20Pro award experience to the character's Hero Lab profile after an encounter is finished.
Again, more laziness. Are we playing a true RPG or a plug and play MMO?
You're gonna see that the 6'3" 215 lb. football player can play the little sneaky halfling, and his size won't destroy your sense of disbelief, because he's not physically there for you to see.
This is just bunk. Most of the people I've gamed with over the years have been 6 foot or better, have played dwarves, halfings, sprites, pixies, and other assorted 'diminutive' folk. Just as I have played a variety of Ogre's, 6'10" muscle bound humans, Hlaf-Giants, and other characters that dwarf my height of 5'6". Never once did this throw off my sense of disbelief. If anything, my sense of disbelief is thrown off by the fact that the actual size of a person does anything to anyone's sense of disbelief.
You're gonna see games where player knowledge is no longer the kind of problem it has been in the past, because you'll be able to split the party, and actually not have them know what the other half is doing, because they can't see or hear them, and to do this, you don't have to pick everything up and move it to another room, then walk back and forth between the two to be able to GM for both sides.
I don't see the problem. Again, digital media lending itself to being efficient. And with digital media efficient = LAZY.
Basically, I see all these tools not only making games easier to play, but deepening the cooperative storytelling aspect of RPG's, as the barriers that RPG's had to it; nuanced rules that you have to pay close attention to to make sure they're being implemented correctly, metagaming knowledge, and the physical disconnect between a player and the type of character they're playing, are stripped away by this new technology.
So not only will you be able to find a quick 3 hour pick up game while you're waiting at the greyhound bus station, but the stories that you tell with your games will only get better and better.
This last point is only going to be true for two groups, gamers that have grown up in this digital age, where practically everyone has a cell phone, computer, internet access, iPods, earbuds, books in PDF format, and so forth...in short things that have become truly prevalent over the last 10 years. The other group is the group that enjoys a form of gaming that I in no way shape or form assocaite with being an RPG - MMO's...this is not to say that MMO's are not FUN or ENJOYABLE, I just see them as being a computer based adventure game, like Zelda, a form of entertainment that I throw into my 'brainless' category - the ability to shut of my brain and just vedge.
Take my perspective with a grain of salt. I work for a company that is helping to drive the digital revolution. The more I learn about it, the more interesting bit I find out behind the tech, the more and more I despise everything moving to digital format. I'm not resistant to change, so much as I fear the unknown issues that are going to arise due to the pervasiveness of it. Or things like the Youtube video with four cell phones arrange around some unpopped popcorn kernels, ringing with incoming calls, which causes the unpopped popcorn to pop! Everyone is just sitting around laughing at it. Hmmm...maybe the crackpots that have said years ago that cell phones are microwaving our brains were onto something...
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I am afraid, while the usage of a virtual tabletop might make entering the game far easier, it will take its toll on the immersion.
This has nothing to do with 'becoming like an MMO', I know, you can still play the same stories and the same rules you do now, but the immersion into the game comes from our imagination.
Our imagination sets the limits for us. We imagine our characters and as the gm describes the world, we complement this description with our imagination. Just like reading our book, we literally create our own mindscape within the frame presented.
While there are factors that break into the immersion in ecery game (ooc talk, pets, noisy household appliances etc.) they tend to fade into the backgroung (or in case of ooc talk cease) as a good game progresses - and we have a certain control over most of them.
If the used media constantly presents a stream of goodies, like visual presentations, and NEED to be present during the game, we lose a certain amount of control / are taken out of our mindscape.
As for PDFs and character managers, I don't think they will have that large an impact. Sure, the might (and probably will) replace character sheets and books on many tables, but not more.
As for the 'perk' of not seeing the other players - I (and I imagine I am not the only one) enjoy gaming with my friends, and I generally enjoy beeing with my friends more then just 'meeting' them via electronic media. I also realized that I would rather spend my limited spare time with my friends, then send it gaming. If both can be combined, great. If not...well you probably get the drift.
Maybe I'm being a curmudgeonly SOB...but I do not allow any kind of Digital Media to be used at my gaming table. Anyone pulls out so mauch as a cell phone for anything other than actually making a phone call gets booted from the table. I still use multiple sheets of "dead-tree", actual dead-tree print edition of books...including printing any all PDFs, real-solid-tactile-use dice, maps are drawn on dead-tree or with dry-erase and a battlemat.
Hey, no problem there. That's your table, your rules. I also like the tactile feel of real minis and dice. I've been playing for 14 years, so that's what I started with. That's the root of the hobby, and it will never go away (I hope).
Personally, I find this a scary concept. For one, Digital media is more easily corrupted and destroyed than dead-tree edition, especially with the wireless connectivity boom that is taking place and the increased connectivity with everyone.
And to your concern I answer you with the same advice I'd give anyone, with important data stored, either physically or digitally. BACK IT UP. If it's digital, make at least one digital backup and one physical. If it's physical, make at least one physical back up, and if possible, back it up digitally as well. It doesn't matter what format your data takes, it can be destroyed, lost, or ruined in any form.
This point lends support to the argument a buddy of mine made about computers and digital media in general...as efficient as these 'tools' allow everyone to become, that efficiency has the extreme and undeniable drawback of making those who use them lazy.
....I can still recall the 18, 19, and 20 year old kids from the applied physics course I had to take (this was 4 years ago, when I was 34) to complete my degree...they pitched a fit when the professor told them that "Any idiot can plug numbers into a calculator to get an answer. In this room, calculators are barred from use. All work will be written out step-by-step so that I can direct you to where you've made a mistake." I had no problem with this. The kids had to have some review of some basic algebra and trig before the class could get into the meat of what we were there for in the first place.
It's not technology itself that is making those kids lazy, it's that the technology is growing faster than the culture it is in can catch up. Before I got injured and couldn't do construction anymore (I'm all fixed now, but it's hard finding a job in the industry these days) I used a nail gun, a LOT. But there were plenty of days where I just wanted to swing my hammer, or places we couldn't get power and thus no compressor. I never hesitated to hammer away when I needed or wanted to, because I know that the nail gun doesn't REPLACE my job, it only makes it easier. People seem to think these days that digital REPLACES physical, which can never be true.
Again, more laziness. Are we playing a true RPG or a plug and play MMO?
I addressed the difference before, but I'll try to re-explain and expand a bit.
I hate...hate, Hate, HATE!!! MMOs. The constant level grinding is not something I find very fun. But more than that, MMOs have no ACTUAL story. Yeah, sure, there's a background history, and there are quests you can do and such, but the thing is, that they don't matter. It doesn't matter that you're the one that defeated such and such beast, because it's just gonna respawn, and someone else is gonna go slay it and get the exact same item you got for defeating it. You don't ever actually save anything, or find anything, or vanquish anything. Also, people's "roleplaying" is pretty much stuck on "Ha ha... pwn'd u, f*in' noob!"
Sure, there is digital visual representation of the game space, and sure, the software calculates whether or not you hit and how much damage, but that doesn't make it an MMO any more than using a word processor makes a book into a movie. Did you get into RPGs because you wanted to do math, or did you get into RPGs so you could "become" other people, and tell amazing and adventurous stories with people? Well, I got into it for the roleplaying and story, not the math myself, so to me, that's the essence of roleplaying games, and I don't see VTTs or any of this other technology taking away from that.
This is just bunk. Most of the people I've gamed with over the years have been 6 foot or better, have played dwarves, halfings, sprites, pixies, and other assorted 'diminutive' folk. Just as I have played a variety of Ogre's, 6'10" muscle bound humans, Hlaf-Giants, and other characters that dwarf my height of 5'6". Never once did this throw off my sense of disbelief. If anything, my sense of disbelief is thrown off by the fact that the actual size of a person does anything to anyone's sense of disbelief.
Maybe height was a bad example then, as really, I haven't seen much disconnect there either (a bit, like not being able to suppress laughing when a 13 year old pimpled kid with braces tries to tower over an adult player to 'be' the ogre he's threatening the party with). I have seen people forget that the elven wizard in the party is female, because she's being played by a male player, or that the human fighter is male, due to a female player. Is it a major problem anywhere? No, not really, though some have more difficulty than others, and this can help.
I don't see the problem. Again, digital media lending itself to being efficient. And with digital media efficient = LAZY.
And again, I refute your idea that digital efficiency = Lazy. Lazy = Lazy. Lazy people think tools replace labor, not enhance it.
This last point is only going to be true for two groups, gamers that have grown up in this digital age, where practically everyone has a cell phone, computer, internet access, iPods, earbuds, books in PDF format, and so forth...in short things that have become truly prevalent over the last 10 years. The other group is the group that enjoys a form of gaming that I in no way shape or form assocaite with being an RPG - MMO's...this is not to say that MMO's are not FUN or ENJOYABLE, I just see them as being a computer based adventure game, like Zelda, a form of entertainment that I throw into my 'brainless' category - the ability to shut of my brain and just vedge.
Gamers like you, or me even, that aren't so culturally ingrained with technology as most kids are these days, are shrinking in number, while techno-babies are only growing in percentage of population. Face it, we're gonna die, they're gonna take over, and the next generation after that, etc, 'cause, you know, they're the future, maaaaaan. Saying that these technologies are only useful for those that grew up with them is like saying that storing food is only good for the winter. Does that mean we don't grow it in the other three seasons? As for it benefiting those that play MMOs, I could care less. I don't care about them, and never will.
A minor example of what I mean about the efficiency of technology equaling laziness is the built-in, automatic spell checker found in document software programs. What? Kids today are too stupid to learn how to spell? Need to know a synonym, just use the built in Thesaurus. Even worse, those same word document software packages are now starting to have automatic grammar correction. I have issues with that. Of course, years ago when Windows replaced DOS, I was pissed then because "now, any idiot will be able to use a computer". I still think that way, self-evident with my digital media = lazy perspective.
Hell, I've protested to the my local school that they teaching kids in kindergarten how to use computers. I don't allow my kids to use the computer at home, play video games, or use cell phones. My stance being that exposure to digital media is going to lead to problems. The catch 22 being that hindering the learning of the use of digital media causing issues with the current educational trends.
The more that technology enables, the greater and greater my loathing for it...yet I use it still.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Technology might make some things obsolete, but not the GM/Player relationship. That is, it wont do so as long as game designers don't design games around the technology. As long as we keep the kind of relationship where one (or two) people are in control of the setting, the NPCs, and the story, and everyone else is in charge of their own character, I don't see technology changing the format of the game.
I doubt that we will see the majority of games move to an over the internet format, but I also do not think that over the internet games are too much different then table top. The internet provides opportunity to play with people you normally cannot meet with, thus expanding your ability and availability to play.
Technology is a tool, and as such it does make playing the game easier. I use Hero Lab as a player and a GM, I also use Obsidian Portal, MS Word, various spread sheets, and PDFs. I still use paper character sheets from time to time, but I like electronic sheets. They make game play faster, and as long as the player (and GM) are vigilant in fact checking they are way more accurate than paper sheets.
As for the laziness issue, I would point out that there isn't anything lazy about playing table top RPGs. Using tools to make certain processes faster is smart, not lazy. What would be lazy is if someone didn't bother to learn the rules and assumed the tools would handle all of the situations they would come across. They would also be lazy if they didn't take advantage of the time the tools saved them and tried to make their play style better.
How do these tools save time?
Lets just look at Hero Lab, which is a great example of a good electronic character builder and manager.
- I don't have to keep track of all the bonuses and penalties that pop up in combat. The program lets me click a box and the bonus is figured into all the areas it applies to. One of my GMs pet peeves is someone forgeting a bonus and then remembering it after the result is declared. The program lets me be certain that doesn't happen. It also saves me the time I would have spent in adding up everything on paper.
-I have instant access to item prices, and it calculates all the costs involved in creating most custom items.
-Most of the leveling up is done for you, and the program alerts you when you have an issue or when you forgot to finish something.
-I have access to how the feats and class features work, so I don't have to dig around in books when a question arises.
-I can look up spells I am casting instantly, and be able to quickly answer any questions or concerns that may arise.
-As long as I am paying attention to what is going on there are not any issues with inaccuracies. The few that have popped up happened because I was not paying attention to what buttons I had pressed.
There was a session not too long ago where I couldn't access Hero Lab, and I had to rely on a paper sheet. I found that I was constantly distracted making sure everything was right, constantly forgetting bonuses, and using a great deal of time trying to find things. I wasn't able to focus on the story as much as I usually do, and because of that my role playing was sub-par for that session.
I am also the fastest in fights, taking only as long as I need to check to see what I need to change in way of bonuses, roll dice, and declare results. I use the extra time to throw flavor into combat by describing how my character fights.
Smart phones and tablets are two technologies I am really excited about. In my games I am able to do some really neat things with my iPad and PDFs. One of my fellow players uses her iPhone to access the PFSRD, which was often faster then flipping through the book. I have ideas for many apps that would make GMing easier, or just add some more color to a games flavor.
I think the future of gaming will allow players and GMs to more easily use tools through tablets, smart phones, and the internet. Using these tools we will be able to focus less on trying to get things right quickly, and be able to focus more on role playing the characters. We will be able to add more flavor, do more interaction, and have more fun.
I don't think that the majority of games are going to switch over to digital tables though. There is a big difference between playing with a screen in front of you and playing with a person next to you. The type of tangible interaction you have with people in a room just cannot be replaced, and I hope nobody ever tries. I do think that digital tables could be adapted to be used with traditional table top games, but the cost to the players might not make it viable for games to be designed around this concept.
The future is bright for games of all kinds, and I hope we continue to see products and tools that support this hobby.
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Hell, I've protested to the my local school that they teaching kids in kindergarten how to use computers. I don't allow my kids to use the computer at home, play video games, or use cell phones. My stance being that exposure to digital media is going to lead to problems. The catch 22 being that hindering the learning of the use of digital media causing issues with the current educational trends.
I feel sorry for your children. Without basic computer skills they will likely be stuck in dead end minimum wage jobs.
Technology isn't laziness. Technology enables efficiency. Efficiency means getting more work done in less amount of time. Which means being able to do more important tasks more often. Whether that is managing high level combats in an RPG or managing the logistics of international business.
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The more that technology enables, the greater and greater my loathing for it...yet I use it still.
Man, you and I just can't seem to agree on anything.
You're not Amish, are you? ;)
I mean, if technology = lazy, then I'm proud of my lazy ways of using my forklift to load pallets onto trucks. Sure, I could be less lazy and load each box by hand, but that sounds like work.
I hate...hate, Hate, HATE!!! MMOs. The constant level grinding is not something I find very fun. But more than that, MMOs have no ACTUAL story. Yeah, sure, there's a background history, and there are quests you can do and such, but the thing is, that they don't matter. It doesn't matter that you're the one that defeated such and such beast, because it's just gonna respawn, and someone else is gonna go slay it and get the exact same item you got for defeating it. You don't ever actually save anything, or find anything, or vanquish anything.That's not quite as true as it used to be. For example Blizzard introduced "phasing" in it's last World of Warcraft expansion and really kicked it up for this one. One example is the Night Elven town of Astranaar. When you first arrive there it's in flames and under Horde aerial attack, after a series of quests which start with you dousing fires, and end with you shooting the Horde bombadiers, the town is restored to a more peaceful state. Other people entering the town for the first time would still be in the earlier phases until they've resolved the story for themselves, or as a party.
It does help if you're willing to be a bit more flexible in how you roleplay though.
Sounds to me like that makes it even more true than before. Now, not only do you "save" the town only to have the next person come through find it in the exact same predicament that you just saved it from, but while you're running around buying stuff and talking to townsfolk after rescuing it, there's someone else running around the same town at the same time, trying to save it from flames and Horde that don't exist to you. Major disconnect there. Coherent story = gone.
I use public transport a fair amount, from trains to buses, it do some of my best prep for DMing/STing/Keepering while on the move. PDFs of gaming material means I can carry the vast majority of my gaming library where ever I go, without killing myself. It means if I am on the bus from boxted to colchester, i can check how climb works, as I write out notes for a scene i just had an idea for. While I am on the train, i can prep my monthly cthulhu game, and figure out my exalted characters experience purchases.
At the table, the technology is not quiet their, at least with PDFs, but the SRD lets me search for and check a rule, in less time than finding it in the book.
@Chris - thank you for the interesting post. Yes, there are a lot more Virtual GM tools than there were previously.
It is not an entirely new concept ... my real question is what will make this all the more compelling than previous ventures? There is still something about across the table, live RPGs that cannot be matched by something across the Internet.
The Vampire Computer RPG gave GMs the chance to run on-line sessions. I do not know how successful it was, but the GM Tool kit seemed reasonable enough.
Never Winter Nights (NWN) I & II ran a fairly robust on-line gaming community for a few years. As far as I can tell, that has nearly completely evaporated at this point.
What happened? MMORPGs are easier to play at odd moments. It is generally easier to coordinate groups of friends to play using the community tools. There is way less prep required by the group.
When life comes calling in the post-school days of your late 20s and early 30s, MMORPGs tend to beat virtual table-top sessions.
But, ... table-top RPGs still offer something that MMORPGs do not.
I was trying to get a gaming group going from around March 2010 through February 2011. There are so many forums to put GMs and players together; so, I thought that it would be easy to find a group in a reasonably sized metropolitan area. Well, guess again.
It proved to be challenging. Finally, I was able to assemble a group
and do a one-shot. Almost of all of the players had cut their role-playing teeth on MMORPGs.
I was a bit rusty and not 100% as familiar with the system as I would have liked. So, I thought that it would end-up being truly just a one-shot, but at the end of the night there was a hew and cry for "when is the next session?"
That was nine months ago.
So, what about the table-top experience was the draw?
Well, some of it is the live banter and meta-gaming interactions.
Telling a bad nerdy joke over a voice-link is not the same as seeing the facial expressions, the belly laughs, and the body language.
Also, I give out a lot of physical props.
I cook dinner for the gang for sessions, and sometimes the meals are props for in-game events.
I run a sound-track during the session.
Most of those aspects do not translate well into a virtual gaming experience.
Part of it is probably the style of the game. It could be dropped back into 1976 and work well, and there was a certain magic with some aspects of the "Old Style" gaming that are still a draw.
For example, over the last couple of sessions, the players have used some "arrows of slaying" to good effect. This was a tool that the PCs used on the villains, but much to the group's credit there was very little grousing when a PC fell into a pool of lava, and I said, "he's dead."
In service,
Maybe I'm being a curmudgeonly SOB...but I do not allow any kind of Digital Media to be used at my gaming table.
My personal opinion is that, yes, that probably is pretty curmudgeonly of you. It is, however, your game. If your players can handle it, I don't think anyone can tell you it's wrong.
Anyone pulls out so mauch as a cell phone for anything other than actually making a phone call gets booted from the table.
Now this seems a little off. It comes across as reactionary, and reactionary behavior is a pretty sure sign of something below the surface - a deep-seated aversion to or fear of the encroachment of technology upon your game. A normal response to someone trying to use technology in your game might be to ask them not to, or even to tolerate it up to the point where it damages the game. Booting them from the table is extreme. Now, it may well be that you wouldn't actually boot them from the table right away, but the fact that you told us that you would speaks for itself.
Personally, I find this a scary concept.
In this case, I'm afraid that your fear arises from ignorance. I'll illustrate.
For one, Digital media is more easily corrupted and destroyed than dead-tree edition, especially with the wireless connectivity boom that is taking place and the increased connectivity with everyone.
This is, in reality, the opposite of what is taking place. Digital media, ten years ago, was certainly more easily corrupted and destroyed than a book. Lose the CD, have a hard drive fail on you, pick up the wrong virus - any of these things might have caused you to irreversibly lose access to your files.
Today, that is not the case.
I can store any digital files that I own in the cloud. They will reside on powerful servers run by professional companies whose stake in their own reputation ensures that they will do everything in their power to protect my data. My files are stored redundantly and are regularly backed up to isolated media. This requires little to no effort on my part. In fact, it would probably take a truly massive event (beyond the scale of a ruinous natural disaster) in order for me to permanently lose access to my files.
You have books. You could lose your books to a flood, a fire, a theft, or simply (and most commonly) misplacing them somewhere. None of these things can touch my files. My computer could be destroyed, and I'd still have them - even my phone can access them. The worst that could happen is that I temporarily lose access due to a service outage - in which case, I have more to worry about than the next time I'll be getting together with my friends to play D&D.
This point lends support to the argument a buddy of mine made about computers and digital media in general...as efficient as these 'tools' allow everyone to become, that efficiency has the extreme and undeniable drawback of making those who use them lazy.
I'm happy to deny your undeniable drawback. You make the same mistake that countless people have chosen to make regarding the "younger generation".
....I can still recall the 18, 19, and 20 year old kids from the applied physics course I had to take (this was 4 years ago, when I was 34) to complete my degree...they pitched a fit when the professor told them that "Any idiot can plug numbers into a calculator to get an answer. In this room, calculators are barred from use. All work will be written out step-by-step so that I can direct you to where you've made a mistake."
You attribute this to laziness, which is a dangerous (and, ironically, itself an example of lazy thinking) attribution to make. The students in your class were likely not opposed to doing work - they were, after all, voluntarily present in an applied physics class. They were opposed to doing work by a means that they viewed as an unnecessary hindrance. Whether that hindrance is actually a learning tool in disguise is another matter entirely; I've often found that proficiency in mathematics lies not in one's ability to mentally compute but rather in one's ability to select the right tool for the problem. You see laziness, they see efficiency and pragmatism.
I had no problem with this. The kids had to have some review of some basic algebra and trig before the class could get into the meat of what we were there for in the first place.
That is, and has been for quite some time, par for the course (har har) when it comes to (what I'm assuming must have been) science classes for non-science majors. Students come from diverse educational backgrounds. Regimented programs like majors help to standardize the educational background (which is why science majors often have a set of prerequisite mathematics courses) but when you set up a course for non-science majors you need to ensure that someone without a strong mathematics background can still complete the course's instruction. Again, this is not an indication of laziness. This is an indication of diversity of educational background coupled with your desire to see laziness as the root cause of the issue.
Again, more laziness. Are we playing a true RPG or a plug and play MMO?
This is a troubling statement. First, it denigrates MMORPGs as not being "true" RPGs, as though you get to define what is and isn't an RPG. Second, it implies that the manual computation of experience (and manually plopping a dragon down on a map) is fundamental to "true" RPGs, rather than things like mutable, interactive storylines, character choice, and a sense of adventure - all of which are preserved despite the use of digital aids.
I don't see the problem. Again, digital media lending itself to being efficient. And with digital media efficient = LAZY.
Again, this has unfortunately become your mantra. I think nearly everyone would view the process of continually relocating to different rooms in your house in order to handle the actions of different groups of players as being sort of a tremendous pain. Yet you believe that a desire to avoid this is a sign of laziness.
Why do you want to see everyone else as lazy?
Take my perspective with a grain of salt. I work for a company that is helping to drive the digital revolution. The more I learn about it, the more interesting bit I find out behind the tech, the more and more I despise everything moving to digital format. I'm not resistant to change, so much as I fear the unknown issues that are going to arise due to the pervasiveness of it. Or things like the Youtube video with four cell phones arrange around some unpopped popcorn kernels, ringing with incoming calls, which causes the unpopped popcorn to pop! Everyone is just sitting around laughing at it. Hmmm...maybe the crackpots that have said years ago that cell phones are microwaving our brains were onto something...
And here we have the most worrisome part of your argument. I'm going to make a point, here, and it's something I think you should really take to heart if you take nothing else away from this response.
The popcorn video is fake. It was created by a company called Cardo Systems as part of a marketing campaign. You can't pop popcorn with cell phone calls.
Now, that's not the point I was talking about. I'm just pointing this out because you were clearly aware of the popcorn video, but rather than the part of your brain responsible for critical thought triggering and saying, "Hey, rest-of-my-brain, that sounds like it could be something that is totally not true because if it were we would no doubt be experiencing loads of health problems cropping up related to cell phone use!" you not only decided not to question it, but then used it to support your own barely-related argument!
You can deride those younger than you for their imagined lazy habits all you like. But my point is this: I firmly believe that your perspective on this issue (the use of digital aids in your tabletop RPG) is grounded in lazy thought. Your personal opinion of how your own game is run is fair; if it works for you and your players, that's great. But don't stoop to the level of blaming technology for a rise in what you perceive as laziness.
A minor example of what I mean about the efficiency of technology equaling laziness is the built-in, automatic spell checker found in document software programs. What? Kids today are too stupid to learn how to spell? Need to know a synonym, just use the built in Thesaurus. Even worse, those same word document software packages are now starting to have automatic grammar correction. I have issues with that. Of course, years ago when Windows replaced DOS, I was pissed then because "now, any idiot will be able to use a computer". I still think that way, self-evident with my digital media = lazy perspective.
Hell, I've protested to the my local school that they teaching kids in kindergarten how to use computers. I don't allow my kids to use the computer at home, play video games, or use cell phones. My stance being that exposure to digital media is going to lead to problems. The catch 22 being that hindering the learning of the use of digital media causing issues with the current educational trends.
The more that technology enables, the greater and greater my loathing for it...yet I use it still.
I stand corrected; this is more troubling than anything you've said so far. You are crippling your children's ability to function in the modern world, both socially and productively - perhaps irreversibly. I am loathe to judge anyone on their parenting when I have both a limited perspective on their situation and no experience of my own, but it is very difficult to see this as anything other than a terrible mistake on your part.
Also, that's not a catch 22. It's just a normal catch. A catch 22 would be if you had an aversion to digital media and wanted to protest the school's exposing it to your kids, but in order to protest their digital media program the school made you do so through digital media.
Sounds to me like that makes it even more true than before. Now, not only do you "save" the town only to have the next person come through find it in the exact same predicament that you just saved it from, but while you're running around buying stuff and talking to townsfolk after rescuing it, there's someone else running around the same town at the same time, trying to save it from flames and Horde that don't exist to you. Major disconnect there. Coherent story = gone.
There is no disconnect. The game keeps each character ignorant of the other and his or her actions. The only characters you see are those who are progressing through the story at the same "stage" as you. When you restore health to a devastated valley in the Cataclysm expansion, you get to see the effect your actions have had on it.
For a more up-to-the-minute example, Bioware's upcoming Star Wars MMO The Old Republic features a large number of phased areas where you and your party are the only ones interacting with the environment. The game also features a character interaction system like that seen in their single player RPGs (Dragon Age and Mass Effect, specifically). The distinction between the sort of gameplay you can experience in a tabletop RPG and the sort of gameplay you can experience in an MMO is becoming less clear. I'm not sure that it will ever reach parity, but MMOs have certainly made a great deal of progress in that respect since the days of Everquest.
A minor example of what I mean about the efficiency of technology equaling laziness is the built-in, automatic spell checker found in document software programs. What? Kids today are too stupid to learn how to spell? Need to know a synonym, just use the built in Thesaurus. Even worse, those same word document software packages are now starting to have automatic grammar correction. I have issues with that. Of course, years ago when Windows replaced DOS, I was pissed then because "now, any idiot will be able to use a computer". I still think that way, self-evident with my digital media = lazy perspective.
Hell, I've protested to the my local school that they teaching kids in kindergarten how to use computers. I don't allow my kids to use the computer at home, play video games, or use cell phones. My stance being that exposure to digital media is going to lead to problems. The catch 22 being that hindering the learning of the use of digital media causing issues with the current educational trends.
The more that technology enables, the greater and greater my loathing for it...yet I use it still.
I stand corrected; this is more troubling than anything you've said so far. You are crippling your children's ability to function in the modern world, both socially and productively - perhaps irreversibly. I am loathe to judge anyone on their parenting when I have both a limited perspective on their situation and no experience of my own, but it is very difficult to see this as anything other than a terrible mistake on your part.
Also, that's not a catch 22. It's just a normal catch. A catch 22 would be if you had an aversion to digital media and wanted to protest the school's exposing it to your kids, but in order to protest their digital media program the school made you do so through digital media.
I'm not trying to cripple their ability to function in the modern world. I want them to be able to communicate effectively face to face first and foremost. The digital method should be secondary. The problem with digital, is that it is impersonal and 'literal'. It's just words, only 7% of what is used to communicate. The loss of body language, tone of voice, cadence of speech, inflection - the non-verbal aspects of verbal communication is lost - the remaining 93%. These are actual numbers from a harassment seminar to which my company recently subjected everyone. If by crippling them socially, they learn to use the 93% that is lost with digital media, well then I don't see that as such a bad thing. If I had my way, kids wouldn't get access to anything digital until the age of 10, it'd all be done the old-fashioned way.
The more that technology enables, the greater and greater my loathing for it...yet I use it still.Man, you and I just can't seem to agree on anything.
You're not Amish, are you? ;)
I mean, if technology = lazy, then I'm proud of my lazy ways of using my forklift to load pallets onto trucks. Sure, I could be less lazy and load each box by hand, but that sounds like work.
Ahh. A nice counter point. However, if the forklift broke down, and couldn't be used, you know how to load the boxes without the forklift and wouldn't be confused about how to handle it. It would slow things down, but the work could still be done.
No, I'm not Amish, even though I live in Berks County, PA around plenty of Amish farms.
I use public transport a fair amount, from trains to buses, it do some of my best prep for DMing/STing/Keepering while on the move. PDFs of gaming material means I can carry the vast majority of my gaming library where ever I go, without killing myself. It means if I am on the bus from boxted to colchester, i can check how climb works, as I write out notes for a scene i just had an idea for. While I am on the train, i can prep my monthly cthulhu game, and figure out my exalted characters experience purchases.
At the table, the technology is not quiet their, at least with PDFs, but the SRD lets me search for and check a rule, in less time than finding it in the book.
I don't do rule checks in the middle of a session. If something comes up during a session, unless it means the difference between a PC living or dying, I make a note of it to check after the session, make a quick ruling on the spot and keep going. If I made a mistake, I let the group know how I should've handled it. It's worked for me for 20+ years of gaming, don't see why it can't work now. I have one player that it bothers. A self-proclaimed rules lawyer that sees d20 gaming as PERFECTED gaming, where each session should be run with RAW. I've gamed with mantra "Story, not detail". However the players shape that story, it's more important then the rules.
(Me)Anyone pulls out so mauch as a cell phone for anything other than actually making a phone call gets booted from the table.]
(Scott Betts) Now this seems a little off. It comes across as reactionary, and reactionary behavior is a pretty sure sign of something below the surface - a deep-seated aversion to or fear of the encroachment of technology upon your game. A normal response to someone trying to use technology in your game might be to ask them not to, or even to tolerate it up to the point where it damages the game. Booting them from the table is extreme. Now, it may well be that you wouldn't actually boot them from the table right away, but the fact that you told us that you would speaks for itself.
Admittedly, it is quite reactionary. I have seen my players, in the middle of combat, start playing some stupid ap - like angry birds, then, when it's not their turn in combat. Then when I'm having the beasties/baddies/or whatnot go after their characters, I've got to give them the run down of everything that happened up to that point.
In this case, I'm afraid that your fear arises from ignorance. I'll illustrate.
For one, Digital media is more easily corrupted and destroyed than dead-tree edition, especially with the wireless connectivity boom that is taking place and the increased connectivity with everyone.This is, in reality, the opposite of what is taking place. Digital media, ten years ago, was certainly more easily corrupted and destroyed than a book. Lose the CD, have a hard drive fail on you, pick up the wrong virus - any of these things might have caused you to irreversibly lose access to your files.
Today, that is not the case.
I can store any digital files that I own in the cloud...
This is something I just won't do, store digital files that I own in the cloud. These days privacy is already dwindling at an alarming rate. Why would I contribute to one more 'efficient tool' that adds to that dwindling privacy? I have more faith in a tangible, hard copy, dead-tree book than I do with digital media.
(ME)....I can still recall the 18, 19, and 20 year old kids from the applied physics course I had to take (this was 4 years ago, when I was 34) to complete my degree...they pitched a fit when the professor told them that "Any idiot can plug numbers into a calculator to get an answer. In this room, calculators are barred from use. All work will be written out step-by-step so that I can direct you to where you've made a mistake."
(Scott Betts) You attribute this to laziness, which is a dangerous (and, ironically, itself an example of lazy thinking) attribution to make. The students in your class were likely not opposed to doing work - they were, after all, voluntarily present in an applied physics class. They were opposed to doing work by a means that they viewed as an unnecessary hindrance. Whether that hindrance is actually a learning tool in disguise is another matter entirely; I've often found that proficiency in mathematics lies not in one's ability to mentally compute but rather in one's ability to select the right tool for the problem. You see laziness, they see efficiency and pragmatism.
(Me)I had no problem with this. The kids had to have some review of some basic algebra and trig before the class could get into the meat of what we were there for in the first place.
(Scott Betts) That is, and has been for quite some time, par for the course (har har) when it comes to (what I'm assuming must have been) science classes for non-science majors. Students come from diverse educational backgrounds. Regimented programs like majors help to standardize the educational background (which is why science majors often have a set of prerequisite mathematics courses) but when you set up a course for non-science majors you need to ensure that someone without a strong mathematics background can still complete the course's instruction. Again, this is not an indication of laziness. This is an indication of diversity of educational background coupled with your desire to see laziness as the root cause of the issue.
Quite nicely put. However, by the time kids hit College, unless High School has changed dramatically since 1989 - 1991, kids going to college have had at the VERY least Algebra, Geometry, Trig, maybe even some Pre-Calc. The prerequisites to get into the Applied Physics course, was College Algebra and Trig. If we all had the same prerequisites, why the problem? There shouldn't have been one.
(Me)Again, more laziness. Are we playing a true RPG or a plug and play MMO?
(Scott Betts)This is a troubling statement. First, it denigrates MMORPGs as not being "true" RPGs, as though you get to define what is and isn't an RPG. Second, it implies that the manual computation of experience (and manually plopping a dragon down on a map) is fundamental to "true" RPGs, rather than things like mutable, interactive storylines, character choice, and a sense of adventure - all of which are preserved despite the use of digital aids.
I won't apologize for my perspective. FOR ME, MMO's are a video game built with the shiny venier of what can be found in an RPG, with the program of the MMO trying to emulate the limitless imagination of a living, breathing GM. Can't be done. The program can only react in so many ways, and will not allow you to deviate irrevocably from the story line. I see them as mindless entertainment. I sit down, click a few buttons, and play a video game. I enjoy them, when I want to shut my brain off. No challenge. No social comraderie. It's quintessential, let's beat the computer.
What is fundamental to RPGs, FOR ME, is the social interaction and comraderie, which is which is quite frankly, again FOR ME, lacking in MMOs. MMOs, you know exactly what to expect when pursuing a quest, what needs to be done, no deviation. Failing the quest does nothing to the digital world of the MMO. Fail the quest in a table-top RPG and it has an impact on your character. You can have a social interaction occur between an NPC and a PC in an MMO, however, you are limited to a finite set of choices in order to get a response from the NPC. Not so with a table-top NPC-PC interaction. MMO's are not RPGs. They are videon games that have come a considerable distance over the last decade or so, but they're still just video games.
As for the popcorn video, well crap on me for not looking deeper into it.
Gendo,
Please stop hijacking the OP's conversation with your aversion to technology. I'm very excited to read about innovations in gaming, and like all innovations, they'll be optional. You don't need to remind us of that.
Please start a new rant in OTD or elsewhere. You have a right to your opinion, and I think you can raise your kids however you like. However, the OP's topic is important and of direct interest to me. Must your opinion be offered at the expense of the conversation?
I don't do rule checks in the middle of a session. If something comes up during a session, unless it means the difference between a PC living or dying, I make a note of it to check after the session, make a quick ruling on the spot and keep going. If I made a mistake, I let the group know how I should've handled it. It's worked for me for 20+ years of gaming, don't see why it can't work now. I have one player that it bothers. A self-proclaimed rules lawyer that sees d20 gaming as PERFECTED gaming, where each session should be run with RAW. I've gamed with mantra "Story, not detail". However the players shape that story, it's more important then the rules.
What do you define as "rule checks"? I also don't worry about looking up rulings during game. On the other hand, I don't have every spell memorized. So when I flip to a monster that they are facing and it has a spell-like-ability for a spell I don't remember, it is really nice to ask our player with the laptop to search the PRD and pull up the spell description. I'm fairly certain that happens at least twice a game.
I tend to not want to have a computer in front of me while running a game. On the other hand, I love that my subscription gives me both the book and PDF. When prepping for a game it is really nice to be able to cut and paste all the NPC and monster stats into a few pages of notes which I print out before the game. Then I have everything I need in front of me without flipping back and forth between two bestiaries.
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Sounds to me like that makes it even more true than before. Now, not only do you "save" the town only to have the next person come through find it in the exact same predicament that you just saved it from, but while you're running around buying stuff and talking to townsfolk after rescuing it, there's someone else running around the same town at the same time, trying to save it from flames and Horde that don't exist to you. Major disconnect there. Coherent story = gone.There is no disconnect. The game keeps each character ignorant of the other and his or her actions. The only characters you see are those who are progressing through the story at the same "stage" as you. When you restore health to a devastated valley in the Cataclysm expansion, you get to see the effect your actions have had on it.
Agreed Scott. Complaining that other players on the server are doing the same instance is like complaining that the group at the table next to yours is running the same module.
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Ahh. A nice counter point. However, if the forklift broke down, and couldn't be used, you know how to load the boxes without the forklift and wouldn't be confused about how to handle it. It would slow things down, but the work could still be done.
No, I'm not Amish, even though I live in Berks County, PA around plenty of Amish farms.
I didn't think so, but it was an amusing thought.
Now let's apply your response to computers.
If your workstation broke down and couldn't be used, you know how to write your reports by hand. It would slow things down, but the work could still be done.
Of course, I wouldn't want to be spending hours writing everything out by hand when I could get it done much quicker digitally. Especially considering how the military wants all paperwork in triplicate.
I'm not trying to cripple their ability to function in the modern world.
What you're trying to accomplish isn't really the point. No matter what your intentions, by depriving them of some of the shared cornerstone experiences of modern life you are having a profound influence on how they will deal with the world around them.
I want them to be able to communicate effectively face to face first and foremost.
If you want them to be able to communicate effectively face-to-face, then teach them how to communicate effectively face-to-face. Stripping them of the experiences of video games, computers, and the internet during their time as children and young adults practically guarantees that they'll have problems communicating with their peers during adolescence.
The digital method should be secondary.
What you are talking about is not "primary" versus "secondary". What you're talking about is "primary" versus "no computers allowed!"
The problem with digital, is that it is impersonal and 'literal'.
No.
Computers are impersonal and literal. Just like any machine or tool is. But communication via digital media is not. Is it less personal and intimate than face-to-face conversation? Yes. Does it replace those things? No. Do you need to worry about your children growing up with stunted interpersonal skills due to exposure to computers? Not if you're doing your job as a parent.
It's just words, only 7% of what is used to communicate. The loss of body language, tone of voice, cadence of speech, inflection - the non-verbal aspects of verbal communication is lost - the remaining 93%. These are actual numbers from a harassment seminar to which my company recently subjected everyone. If by crippling them socially, they learn to use the 93% that is lost with digital media, well then I don't see that as such a bad thing. If I had my way, kids wouldn't get access to anything digital until the age of 10, it'd all be done the old-fashioned way.
This is a gross misrepresentation of Dr. Merhabian's communication model. I'm sure that the person who put that harassment seminar together thought it would sound smart and compelling to bring it up, but unfortunately the use of the 7-38-55 model to damn digital communication is a pretty clear case of intellectual dishonesty.
Let me be very, very clear about this: if your kids grow up unable to effectively communicate with their peers, online or in-person, you will not be able to blame computers, whether you allow them in your children's lives or not. Their development is your responsibility as a parent.
I now return you to your scheduled discussion of digital RPG aids.
Admittedly, it is quite reactionary. I have seen my players, in the middle of combat, start playing some stupid ap - like angry birds, then, when it's not their turn in combat. Then when I'm having the beasties/baddies/or whatnot go after their characters, I've got to give them the run down of everything that happened up to that point.
Then it may be that you have players who cannot handle playing a tabletop roleplaying game and engaging in another activity at the same time. Asking them to avoid using cell phones or computers during the game for things that aren't related to the game is probably a good idea, if it really does prove a hindrance to the game.
This is something I just won't do, store digital files that I own in the cloud.
I really should have seen that coming.
These days privacy is already dwindling at an alarming rate. Why would I contribute to one more 'efficient tool' that adds to that dwindling privacy? I have more faith in a tangible, hard copy, dead-tree book than I do with digital media.
You have not reasoned yourself into this position. I don't think I will have any success trying to reason you out of it.
Quite nicely put. However, by the time kids hit College, unless High School has changed dramatically since 1989 - 1991, kids going to college have had at the VERY least Algebra, Geometry, Trig, maybe even some Pre-Calc. The prerequisites to get into the Applied Physics course, was College Algebra and Trig. If we all had the same prerequisites, why the problem? There shouldn't have been one.
Now I'm confused. There frankly aren't a lot of mathematical shortcuts that can be taken via calculator in those levels (save handy functions like trig computations, which no one can in good conscience subject another to without a calculator's aid). Calculator dependence, in my experience, doesn't really arise until exposure to pre-calculus and calculus.
I'm pretty sure the real culprits are varied mathematical backgrounds and the rusty nature of the students' math skills - I was a good math student in high school, but I can tell you very little about anything past geometry simply because I haven't made use of the knowledge I once had in nearly a decade.
I won't apologize for my perspective. FOR ME, MMO's are a video game built with the shiny venier of what can be found in an RPG, with the program of the MMO trying to emulate the limitless imagination of a living, breathing GM. Can't be done. The program can only react in so many ways, and will not allow you to deviate irrevocably from the story line. I see them as mindless entertainment. I sit down, click a few buttons, and play a video game. I enjoy them, when I want to shut my brain off. No challenge. No social comraderie. It's quintessential, let's beat the computer.
The challenge and social camaraderie are there. You just didn't partake. By way of example, high-end raiding guilds in World of Warcraft face tremendous challenges that require absolute mastery, and often share tight-knit bonds between guildmates. Now, that's not really my thing; it requires more dedication than I have to give. But I certainly will not pretend that those qualities don't exist, or even pretend that they're rare. They're not.
What is fundamental to RPGs, FOR ME, is the social interaction and comraderie, which is which is quite frankly, again FOR ME, lacking in MMOs. MMOs, you know exactly what to expect when pursuing a quest, what needs to be done, no deviation. Failing the quest does nothing to the digital world of the MMO. Fail the quest in a table-top RPG and it has an impact on your character. You can have a social interaction occur between an NPC and a PC in an MMO, however, you are limited to a finite set of choices in order to get a response from the NPC. Not so with a table-top NPC-PC interaction. MMO's are not RPGs. They are videon games that have come a considerable distance over the last decade or so, but they're still just video games.
I dislike the idea of pigeonholing what an RPG is and isn't. An RPG is, definitively, a game wherein one plays a role. It's fine to say that you like a deeper, more personal experience than MMORPGs can offer, but saying "That's not a real RPG," just smacks of gamer elitism (something that, frankly, has no place in this hobby).
In other words: why is it important that we make it clear that what we enjoy (or, more to the point, what you enjoy) is "real" and that what those other people are playing isn't?
Gendo,
Please stop hijacking the OP's conversation with your aversion to technology. I'm very excited to read about innovations in gaming, and like all innovations, they'll be optional. You don't need to remind us of that.
Please start a new rant in OTD or elsewhere. You have a right to your opinion, and I think you can raise your kids however you like. However, the OP's topic is important and of direct interest to me. Must your opinion be offered at the expense of the conversation?
I didn't mean to hijack the thread. The OP did ask...
...What do you guys think?
I posted what I thought. I then responded to counterpoints that conflicted with my own. However, as it seems that my aversion to technology is an afront and seems to be an issue, before I cease and desist responding to comments and leave it that I strongly disagree with technology and it's apparent revolutionary impact on table-top gaming. I am going to say this:
The only counter argument that I found to be a personal attack and offensive, is the statement that I am harming my children and questioning my choices as a parent. I have myself to blame for mentioning choices I've made regarding my children. So shame on me. However, the worst thing one can do is state that a parent is harming their children, especially over when they should be exposed to certain things.
I don't do rule checks in the middle of a session. If something comes up during a session, unless it means the difference between a PC living or dying, I make a note of it to check after the session, make a quick ruling on the spot and keep going. If I made a mistake, I let the group know how I should've handled it. It's worked for me for 20+ years of gaming, don't see why it can't work now. I have one player that it bothers. A self-proclaimed rules lawyer that sees d20 gaming as PERFECTED gaming, where each session should be run with RAW. I've gamed with mantra "Story, not detail". However the players shape that story, it's more important then the rules.I use public transport a fair amount, from trains to buses, it do some of my best prep for DMing/STing/Keepering while on the move. PDFs of gaming material means I can carry the vast majority of my gaming library where ever I go, without killing myself. It means if I am on the bus from boxted to colchester, i can check how climb works, as I write out notes for a scene i just had an idea for. While I am on the train, i can prep my monthly cthulhu game, and figure out my exalted characters experience purchases.
At the table, the technology is not quiet their, at least with PDFs, but the SRD lets me search for and check a rule, in less time than finding it in the book.
Well that is fine for you. I am personally very glad that I can have my mages whole spell book, a touch away, or make sure that an idea for a cool way of dealing with a challenge will actually work within the rules, or whatever, at the table, quickly.
All I see are Gendo using corner cases and making them seem like normal occurrences. Am I really to believe the majority of those kids in the physics class could not really do the work?
Does every(large majority) gamer use an app, and then ask for a repeat of what happened because they chose not to pay attention?
As to the failing the quest with no consequence issue blamed pm MMO's.--> There are tabletop players who believe they should be allowed to succeed. Are you saying these people are not playing a real RPG because there is no risk or would it only be the case if it were done online?
You also should know that info stored online is very secure and easy to retrieve, since you say you work for a company that is "driving the digital revolution" as was pointed out. You did not know it, and had no logical rebuttal other than to say "This is something I just won't do, store digital files that I own in the cloud." Maybe one would say it was laziness on your part to not know this*. Storing information online is not something that just happened yesterday. I am not calling you lazy though. I was just making an example. Here is what I really think-->I just think your company is behind the times if an employee that works there does not have basic knowledge of such things or number 2. Number 2 being this-->you work for such a company, but you are not involved on the technological side which one would assume by the statement you made.
That basically amounts to "I will ignore your logic and do what I want", which is fine, but if you are going to present your information as facts then bring proof, and logical counters, not corner cases and statements that only demonstrate your willingness to keep a stance despite contrary evidence.
I want to see AI that can play RPGs, and generate on-the-fly video
of game action. Then, I can just sit there and watch it.
We need D&D Sims.
All I see are Gendo using corner cases and making them seem like normal occurrences. Am I really to believe the majority of those kids in the physics class could not really do the work?
Does every(large majority) gamer use an app, and then ask for a repeat of what happened because they chose not to pay attention?
I never implied it to be a majority of gamers. I stated "at my table". Based on what happens with my long time group, as long as I am the GM, it's how I'm going to do things. I don't know how things are for anyone else, only myself.
As to the failing the quest with no consequence issue blamed pm MMO's.--> There are tabletop players who believe they should be allowed to succeed. Are you saying these people are not playing a real RPG because there is no risk or would it only be the case if it were done online?
It's not the lack of failure or the belief that success should be allowed. It's the lack of impact on the overall setting. The success or failure is meaningless. I don't believe success should be a guaranteed or an 'entitled' outcome, but that's a topic for a completely different discussion, and one I'm sure will be just as inflammatory.
You also should know that info stored online is very secure and easy to retrieve, since you say you work for a company that is "driving the digital revolution" as was pointed out. You did not know it, and had no logical rebuttal other than to say "This is something I just won't do, store digital files that I own in the cloud." Maybe one would say it was laziness on your part to not know this*. Storing information online is not something that just happened yesterday. I am not calling you lazy though. I was just making an example. Here is what I really think-->I just think your company is behind the times if an employee that works there does not have basic knowledge of such things or number 2. Number 2 being this-->you work for such a company, but you are not involved on the technological side which one would assume by the statement you made.
I've been quite aware of online storage of data, long before it was being dubbed cloud computing. I have no confidence in the security of the cloud. The ease of retrieval isn't an issue. It's lack of trust. I don't trust the security of the servers or the inidividuals that monitor and run them. Having a company, and those like it, such as Lifelock, does nothing to decrease my mistrust.
That basically amounts to "I will ignore your logic and do what I want", which is fine, but if you are going to present your information as facts then bring proof, and logical counters, not corner cases and statements that only demonstrate your willingness to keep a stance despite contrary evidence.
I'm not ignoring the 'logic', I'm disagreeing with it.
Realm Works
This tool actually isn't out yet, so I don't use it, but this is one of the tools I'm most excited about, I've even put off paying for another similar service that I can get now in favor of waiting until these much better tools come out. It also represents another branch of what I see as the future of RPGs, and that's why I'm talking about it here. Realm Works is to campaigns and adventures what Hero Lab is to characters, a tool to easily and quickly, but still completely and correctly, put together, change, and manage a storyline with maps, npc's, flowcharts, etc. all linked together. Also, all instances of characters or creatures can link directly to their Hero Lab portfolio. GM's can share this information is some way online that I don't quite understand. Honestly, with all the different tools that could help a GM out, I can see this utility going a million different places, and like Hero Lab grew into the comprehensive character program it is now, I'm sure Realm Works will become the comprehensive campaign management software.
While I'm not too keen on electronics being used during the game (it really depends on the type of person using it, of course), the above sounds really spiffy...
My curmudgeonly and apparently guarantee-of-my-children-being-hampered-communicating-with-peers perspective, I'm going to look into the OPs VTT packages and actually give them a look. It may be that it'll change my mind or I'll end up with a similar opinion to what I have about 4th edition DnD - 4E doesn't fit with the style of play I enjoy...or in the case with the OP, the tools of the VTTs don't work well with my gaming methods. In either case I'll learn something.
I've been quite aware of online storage of data, long before it was being dubbed cloud computing. I have no confidence in the security of the cloud. The ease of retrieval isn't an issue. It's lack of trust. I don't trust the security of the servers or the inidividuals that monitor and run them. Having a company, and those like it, such as Lifelock, does nothing to decrease my mistrust.
What are you concerned about, exactly? I'm inclined to chalk this up to paranoia, but I feel I should give you a chance to clarify first.
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the tools of the VTTs don't work well with my gaming methods. In either case I'll learn something.
A VTT application I feel, given your stated style of play would not IMHO offer you anything of value because a VTT really shines brightest when used to play online. But even if used "in house" they still require a monitor (or monitors) that the players can see, and you sitting behind a computer while GMing...
But by all means, check out the various VTTs such a d20Pro and make your own informed decision...
However, having said that, I think that a character creation program such as HeroLab could be better suited to your play style with a little modification to said style of play (e.g. allowing the use of laptops and/or tablets to your table for the sole purpose of an aid to gaming)...
I've been quite aware of online storage of data, long before it was being dubbed cloud computing. I have no confidence in the security of the cloud. The ease of retrieval isn't an issue. It's lack of trust. I don't trust the security of the servers or the inidividuals that monitor and run them. Having a company, and those like it, such as Lifelock, does nothing to decrease my mistrust.What are you concerned about, exactly? I'm inclined to chalk this up to paranoia, but I feel I should give you a chance to clarify first.
Paranoia? Quite possibly. However, I am not a fan of sites such as 4shared and Scribd, where material that is currently on sale can be freely accessed by everyone. That is not to say all cloud sites are that way.
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I am not a fan of sites such as 4shared and Scribd, where material that is currently on sale can be freely accessed by everyone. That is not to say all cloud sites are that way.
Sites such as 4shared and scribd are file sharing sites where, like you said, EVERYONE has access to them (which is kind of the whole point of file sharing), BUT they often contain illegally pirated files as well. Online storage sites however, are those sites like carbonite that charge a small fee for securely hosting and encrypting your data files where only YOU have access...
There IS a difference between the two types of sites...
As a GM I hate page-flipping. I hate the systemic distractions and delays that come with PNP RPGs. I have found a distinct correlation between the sheer labor that comes with playing RPGs, and my players becoming distracted and disengaged (followed by the tippy-tappy of texting).
Experienced players and dedicated GMs can stream-line these problems by memorizing dozens of pages of rules and tables, but this takes hundreds of hours of preperation and play time. That is a lot of work just to play a game fairly and efficiently. Worse, many players will carve out comfort zones--a personal bubble of rules knowledge--that they will rarely stray from because to do so would mean more memorization. More notes. More work. This limits experimentation and creativity.
I love VTTs and other digital aids for gaming. The point of roleplaying is not to crunch numbers, memorize tables and spells, or look up rules. The point is to have fun. I have found that using digital aids actually helps my players stay engaged. Less time spent digesting rules and numbers means more time for role-playing, tactics, and experimentation.
Digital character sheets, automated dice rolls for NPCs and monsters (and some times PCs), automated loot, quick and easy shopping, beautiful high resolation maps with fog of war, etc. All of these features can free up precious time and brain power.
If we want the hobby to grow we must adapt and improve.
Paranoia? Quite possibly. However, I am not a fan of sites such as 4shared and Scribd, where material that is currently on sale can be freely accessed by everyone. That is not to say all cloud sites are that way.I've been quite aware of online storage of data, long before it was being dubbed cloud computing. I have no confidence in the security of the cloud. The ease of retrieval isn't an issue. It's lack of trust. I don't trust the security of the servers or the inidividuals that monitor and run them. Having a company, and those like it, such as Lifelock, does nothing to decrease my mistrust.What are you concerned about, exactly? I'm inclined to chalk this up to paranoia, but I feel I should give you a chance to clarify first.
Those are file sharing sites. Not personal cloud storage sites. If you're at a loss for a service to use, even Google Docs makes for a pretty solid cloud hosting solution as long as you're dealing primarily with PDFs.
Agreed Scott. Complaining that other players on the server are doing the same instance is like complaining that the group at the table next to yours is running the same module.Sounds to me like that makes it even more true than before. Now, not only do you "save" the town only to have the next person come through find it in the exact same predicament that you just saved it from, but while you're running around buying stuff and talking to townsfolk after rescuing it, there's someone else running around the same town at the same time, trying to save it from flames and Horde that don't exist to you. Major disconnect there. Coherent story = gone.There is no disconnect. The game keeps each character ignorant of the other and his or her actions. The only characters you see are those who are progressing through the story at the same "stage" as you. When you restore health to a devastated valley in the Cataclysm expansion, you get to see the effect your actions have had on it.
I wouldn't agree. Complaining that other players on OTHER servers are doing the same instance is like complaining the group at the next table is running the same module. The next table metaphorically is a different server. The other players at the table with you are the players that are metaphorically on the same server with you.
To give a PNP example of what I'm talking about, how would you feel if your GM ran you through "The Temple of Elemental Evil," and on another night during the week, runs a different group through the same adventure. Then later the GM decides to find some way to get the two parties together. There's a lot of story disconnect when you run into that other group that went through the exact same adventure you did. What is the explanation for both those groups defeating the exact same villians in the exact same places under the exact same circumstances?
With this "Phasing" thing you're talking about, sure, they may be invisible to you if they aren't on the same phase, but once they ARE on the same phase, they got there by finishing the exact same quest you had to to get to that phase as well. The respawned quest problem to the RPing in MMO's isn't gone with the "Phasing" concept, it's just changed a bit.
Now, I'm not saying that MMO's are bad. I'm saying I personally don't like the limits to story continuity that the MMO format imposes, and these are limits that aren't gonna go away without programming entire ecosystems and economies into the game, extensive increase in AI capabilities, and a quest system that would put together various story combinations almost randomly each time someone came into a "quest zone" or something.
So have fun with your MMO's, me, I'm gonna stick to PnP and single player CRPG's.
While I'm not too keen on electronics being used during the game (it really depends on the type of person using it, of course), the above sounds really spiffy...Realm Works
This tool actually isn't out yet, so I don't use it, but this is one of the tools I'm most excited about, I've even put off paying for another similar service that I can get now in favor of waiting until these much better tools come out. It also represents another branch of what I see as the future of RPGs, and that's why I'm talking about it here. Realm Works is to campaigns and adventures what Hero Lab is to characters, a tool to easily and quickly, but still completely and correctly, put together, change, and manage a storyline with maps, npc's, flowcharts, etc. all linked together. Also, all instances of characters or creatures can link directly to their Hero Lab portfolio. GM's can share this information is some way online that I don't quite understand. Honestly, with all the different tools that could help a GM out, I can see this utility going a million different places, and like Hero Lab grew into the comprehensive character program it is now, I'm sure Realm Works will become the comprehensive campaign management software.
It is really spiffy. I really hope it lives up to my expectations, and since it's by the people that have put together Hero Lab, I have no reason to think it won't.
Actually, an MMO I do like is Minecraft. I like that it's questless, meaning that no one goes on the same adventure you do, and that the entire environment is manipulable and persistent. Let the players on the server create the stories and quests for themselves, rather than creating stories for them to run through.
I'd like to see an MMO with that basis, but add typical RPG statistical and ability elements.
I wouldn't agree. Complaining that other players on OTHER servers are doing the same instance is like complaining the group at the next table is running the same module. The next table metaphorically is a different server. The other players at the table with you are the players that are metaphorically on the same server with you.
No. First, the analogy you're using is imperfect. Second, the players at the table with you are more aptly analogous to those in your MMORPG party - which is to say, the ones who are sharing the instance with you.
To give a PNP example of what I'm talking about, how would you feel if your GM ran you through "The Temple of Elemental Evil," and on another night during the week, runs a different group through the same adventure.
Sounds good so far.
Then later the GM decides to find some way to get the two parties together. There's a lot of story disconnect when you run into that other group that went through the exact same adventure you did.
No. There is some story disconnect, and we suspend that disbelief for the sake of the game. Importantly, however, is that there is less story disconnect this way than if such things were not instanced, and the villain simply kept respawning in the same place so that each group could kill it in turn, in full view of everyone else waiting their turn to kill him.
I wouldn't agree. Complaining that other players on OTHER servers are doing the same instance is like complaining the group at the next table is running the same module. The next table metaphorically is a different server. The other players at the table with you are the players that are metaphorically on the same server with you.Here is what it actually corresponds to: Playing the same adventure as another table in any living campaign. LFR, LG, whatever - there will be times when you sit down at a table with some characters, ask them about their former adventures, and find out that you both helped save the Crimson Widget of Questing - only when you did it, you saved the town of Innocentville and defeated the Evil Overlord, while they teamed up with the Overlord to burn the town and then stole the Widget away from him when his back was turned.
This isn't a problem that has arisen due to the 'evil interwebs', it is a problem intrinsic to any shared-world game system with a massive number of players. Yes, some discrepancies arise, but typically the coherency of the story for any individual character remains intact.
Now, there are genuine limits to story impact and interaction that are imposed, both by the MMO format and by CRPGs in general. That's absolutely true. But several of your comments here seem to making some assumptions that aren't actually true, as well as attributing causes to the format (video game) rather than other elements that can be just as much an issue when sitting around a game table.
This is a brilliant point.
Here is what it actually corresponds to: Playing the same adventure as another table in any living campaign. LFR, LG, whatever - there will be times when you sit down at a table with some characters, ask them about their former adventures, and find out that you both helped save the Crimson Widget of Questing - only when you did it, you saved the town of Innocentville and defeated the Evil Overlord, while they teamed up with the Overlord to burn the town and then stole the Widget away from him when his back was turned.
And that's one of the reasons I don't play PFS or any other living campaigns either.
This isn't a problem that has arisen due to the 'evil interwebs', it is a problem intrinsic to any shared-world game system with a massive number of players. Yes, some discrepancies arise, but typically the coherency of the story for any individual character remains intact.
I never said it was a problem that arisen due to the 'evil interwebs,' and never said that the problem was limited to that format. I said that the format has that problem, nothing else. I really don't understand where you got that I thought it was because of the internet that these problems in story continuity can exist. To me, if a character runs into another character that went on the same adventure outside of the original character's story, the coherency of the story for both characters is no longer in tact.
Now, there are genuine limits to story impact and interaction that are imposed, both by the MMO format and by CRPGs in general. That's absolutely true. But several of your comments here seem to making some assumptions that aren't actually true, as well as attributing causes to the format (video game) rather than other elements that can be just as much an issue when sitting around a game table.
In no place did I attribute the cause to the format, only that the format has those issues. Someone said that the kind of digital tools I was speaking of in the original post were akin to playing MMOs, and I was refuting that, on the basis that those digital tools do not restrict storytelling or roleplaying, nor do they create a shared world with respawning quests or continuity issues.
Now, what assumptions am I making that aren't true?
Importantly, however, is that there is less story disconnect this way than if such things were not instanced, and the villain simply kept respawning in the same place so that each group could kill it in turn, in full view of everyone else waiting their turn to kill him.
Not to me. Just as much story disconnect for me.
MMO's don't fit my play style, partly due to continuity issues that may not be such a big deal to other people.
Now, can we please stop attacking my perfectly valid opinion that I don't like MMO's because of these issues, and get back to talking about digital gaming aids to traditional PnP RPGs?