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Okay so it basically goes like this: I've read all the rules at least 5 times. Spent the last hour or so pouring over the forums and I'm still not convinced I have a solid answer.
Lets say I have two claw attacks and one bite attack from being a werewolf or a dragon template or something. Lets also say for the purpose of argument I am 6th level fighter with no weapons equipped or being wielded.
I understand that you can use your natural attacks after using your standard attacks as long as you don't have a weapon wielded in said appendage.
I also understand that the natural weapons will be at -5 to hit when you use them.
Using a * to indicate attacks given from being a fighter and a ^ to indicate those given from natural attacks ... Does the fighter in the above example (not wielding weapons and capable of making 2 strikes due to him being 6th level) look like this during a full attack action:
* unarmed strike / * unarmed strike / ^ claw / ^ claw / ^ bite ?
Or can his full attack action look like this:
* claw / * claw / ^ claw / ^ claw / ^ bite ?
Or can his full attack action look like this:
*bite / * bite / ^ claw / ^ claw / ^ bite ?
(i.e. can the fighter, if he so chooses use his CLAW (or perhaps even bite) as a device to deliver his normal attack in lieu of a wielded weapon)
Once the above has been determined, please help me determine which of those attacks will be delivered at 1/2 strength.
Thank you in advance for intelligent and well researched replies.
Core Rulebook pg. 182: Natural Attacks, sentence 3:
"You do not receive additional attacks for a high base attack bonus."
Next paragraph discusses combined Natural and "Weapon" attacks.
If your Fighter has Improved Unarmed Strike, he could make:
Impr. Unarmed Strike BAB +6, Impr. Unarmed Strike BAB +1, Claw +1 (1/2 Str to damage), Claw +1 (1/2 Str to damage), Bite +1 (1/2 Str to damage).
Or you could just go with Claw +6 (Full Str to damage), Claw +6 (Full Str to damage), Bite +6 (Full Str to damage).
(Source: PRD/Bestiary/Universal Monster Rules)
"These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls."
The chart shows Claw and Bite as Primary attacks.
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* unarmed strike / * unarmed strike / ^ claw / ^ claw / ^ bite
This should be the most correct version. However I'm not sure that you can make unarmed strikes with claws and I'm not even aware of a precedent for it. I can tell you that with, say, a short sword the attack routine would be:
*short sword/ *short sword/ ^claw/ ^bite
And any attack that is not a primary attack would get 1/2 strength so in the above instance the natural attacks would be at 1/2 strength.
Mixing the unarmed strikes in there seems like it would require a DM ruling to me.
My 2 cp.
Good point, Kieviel!
Only the Monk's Unarmed Strike is considered a weapon. So, only if the 6th level Fighter ALSO had a level of Monk, would my previous example including Unarmed Strike be correct.
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Not trying to be a downer but this seems like a lot of work to get a lot of very low damage attacks with poor to-hits.
I can say that after running a melee alchemist for 11 levels 3 primary natural attacks at full strength to-hit and damage is PLENTY scary even at 3/4 progression. I'm not sure the extra attacks are worth it...
Yes, if you want to play a Fighter that uses natural attacks instead of weapons, the "Savage Warrior" archetype from the Advanced Player's Guide is probably the way to go. There are also quite a few feats in the APG that are for natural attacks as well!
As Kieviel pointed out, you wouldn't be getting extra attacks, though.
Ah, here's some more info:
Core Rulebook, pg. 149: Strike, Unarmed
"An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon... Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons..."
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Ah, here's some more info:
Core Rulebook, pg. 149: Strike, Unarmed
"An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon... Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons..."
Then I suppose this:
"Impr. Unarmed Strike BAB +6, Impr. Unarmed Strike BAB +1, Claw +1 (1/2 Str to damage), Claw +1 (1/2 Str to damage), Bite +1 (1/2 Str to damage)"
Would work though base damage for each would be 1d4 (claws and unarmed strike) 1d6 (bite). Unless the claws start higher that's not much damage.
Yes, and the -5 to hit and 1/2 Str Damage to the natural attacks kinda sucks. I agree that just going for the natural attacks is a better choice.
There are no rules for improved unarmed strike interacting with anything unless its as an empty fist being used as offhand weapon. You can (reasonably) extrapolate the spiked armor rules allowing you to use a two handed sword and spiked armor as if you were dual wielding to be the same as a two handed sword and a kick, but if you try to use a long sword, short sword, kick, double off handing you're completely outside the rules.
Yes, and the -5 to hit and 1/2 Str Damage to the natural attacks kinda sucks. I agree that just going for the natural attacks is a better choice.
Grabbing multiattack and getting damage not dependent on Strength is a good way to use secondary attacks as well. Unlike in prior editions, all natural weapon attacks remain primary despite one being used first that say they are primary. Using any manufactured weapon in there makes all your subsequent natural attacks all become secondary.
I went back and reread the "Natural Attacks" section. I guess I should have included the ENTIRE text of the "Natural Attacks" section of the Core Rulebook, pg. 182-184.
"Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."
So, according to the above paragraph, "...all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."
So, you have to use the Two-Weapon Fighting rules, with the associated attack penalties.
Let's build an example:
6th level Fighter, Str 14, Dex 17, 2 claw (1d4), 1 bite (1d6)
Feats: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Multiattack (Bestiary: turn -5 penalty into -2), Two-Weapon Fighting
Class Features: Weapon Training 1 (Natural)
BAB: +6/+1, Natural Attacks: +9 (Str +2, Weapon Training +1)
Attack: Unarmed Strike +7/+2 (1d3+3), Unarmed Strike +7/+2 (1d3+2), Bite +7 (1d6+2), Claw +7 (1d4+2), Claw +7 (1d4+2)
The primary Unarmed Strike gets full damage (Str +2 damage, Weapon Training +1 damage), the secondary attacks get 1/2 Str (Str +1 damage, Weapon Training +1 damage).
Give this guy an Amulet of Mighty Fists and watch out!
Edit: I corrected the Attack bonuses for Unarmed Strikes!
Weren, the core rule book rules are the wrong ones. You're supposed to use the ones from the bestiary.
Q: The rules for Natural Attacks and weapons from the Core book are different from what is in the Bestiary. The Core rules say that if combining natural and weapon attacks that they are treated as if using two-weapon fighting, but the Bestiary matches to what is in the 3.5 rules. Which is correct?
A: (James Jacobs 10/30/09) Part of the problem, alas, is that this is a rules mechanic that Jason was wrestling with up to the very last second. The Bestiary rules are correct. The part in the core rules that contradicts this is a fragment, alas, that stuck in there. It should be cleaned up, I agree. It's unfortunate that the confusion is in there, but again, as far as I understand the game and as far as I've been using the rules for the last several volumes of Pathfinder, the rules from the Bestiary are the correct ones. [Source]
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
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Yes, I was using the updated ruling that BigNorse is citing when formulating my unresolved conclusion. Also seen at the bottom of the page here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq I should have mentioned that earlier to prevent confusion from using the Core rules to resolve this.
Either way it sounds relatively unanimous that if you were to watch this Fighter (creature) in combat he would punch his opponent 2 times, claw him 2 times and bite him 1 time.
However, if the creatures claws were far more damaging than a standard punch to the face, it seems unrealistic that he would waste time not utilizing his natural weapons for all the attacks available to him.
If he were a monk: he would at least have a increase to his unarmed dmg.
If he were a size category larger: he would at least have an increase to his (everything).
Okay, let me get this straight: The natural attacks are just tacked onto the normal attacks that a character can make, at the -5 (or -2 if using Multiattack). I just realized that even if my previous post was correct, then the attack for the natural attacks was wrong (my apologies)!
However, taking the fact that the Bestiary is correct then the following becomes important: After re-reading the Weapon section and the Monk entry, it apparently indicates that "A monk's attacks may be made with fist, elbows, knees, and feet." While for a non-monk, an Unarmed Strike would be considered a Light Weapon!
So, w/out Monk levels, the character would have to choose between the Unarmed Strikes OR the Claw attacks for each hand!
So, regardless of feats, it really is an either or.
Unless you invest in a level of Monk. In which case a character COULD go TWF w/ his Unarmed Strike (but he COULDN'T use Flurry of Blows, see that ability's description), as these could be described as kicks/knee strikes with clawing and biting.
Still, it'd be a really feat heavy build, with high Dex requirements to pull off (for the TWF).
Oh, and there is a feat in the Bestiary called Improved Natural Attack (which, alas, doesn't work for Unarmed Strike), which bumps a natural attack's damage die by a step.
No. Not in any of my posts.
You do not get extra attacks with natural weapons for a high BAB!
Both the Bestiary and Core Rulebook are in agreement.
Claw, Claw, Bite. Period. Even w/ a BAB of +20.
The only thing that was in doubt was combining it w/ other attacks.
Check out the Bestiary (either the actual book or in the PRD or d20pfsrd). Look up the Ancient Black Dragon.
His BAB is +22.
His attacks are: Melee bite +32 (2d8+16 plus 4d6 acid), 2 claws +31 (2d6+11), 2 wings +29 (1d8+5), tail +29 (2d6+16)
You'll note that he gets one attack with each physical natural weapon.
So, w/out Monk levels, the character would have to choose between the Unarmed Strikes OR the Claw attacks for each hand!
Monk doesn't have much to do with it.
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
The problem is that there are no rules for mixing unarmed strikes with weapons. Unless your fist is empty there are no rules allowing you to mix unarmed strikes with other weapons.
How about the line that unarmed strikes are always treated as light weapons and that they are not natural weapons. I think that treats them in the rule of needing either two attacks or fighting with two weapons and there ya go.
The two different systems are /almost/ entirely separate.
First, determine the "iterative" attacks that you're entitled to from base attack. This works /exactly/ as it does for a character with no natural attacks, including any extra attacks from flurry, two weapon fighting, or rapidshot.
Second, note that all natural attacks are now secondary (base attack-5, half strength damage). Determine which natural attacks are still available. If you're wielding a sword or a bow, you may have to give up one or more claw attacks -- Improved Unarmed Strike is good for iteratives, since it gives you lots of flexibility in which limb you use for attacking.
So, for the original fighter, first he gets two unarmed strikes from base attack -- at +6 and +1, each for full strength damage. If he has the Improved Unarmed Strike feat or for whatever reason is willing to make nonlethal, AOO-provoking unarmed strikes [1], both claws are free, so his natural routine would be claw/claw/bite. If, however, he was using a spiked gauntlet to punch for his unarmed strikes, he would only get the bite and one claw attack, since he's already used his arm.
Then you just add them together. (I don't remember if Pathfinder has the rule about making attacks in decreasing attack bonus order or not.)
UAS +6 (full strength), UAS +1 (full strength), bite +1 (half strength), claw +1 (half strength), claw +1 (half strength)
Incidentally, you can't use natural weapons to make iterative attacks [2]. However, unarmed strikes aren't natural weapons. You can mix them in with any other kind of manufactured weapon attacks -- wield a reach polearm and kicks to threaten everything within 10' of you. Kill an enemy next to you with a headbutt and then shoot his buddy with your longbow.
[1] Some combat maneuvers can be substituted for attacks, so I suppose you could attempt a trip, twice, and then attack your hopefully-prone victim with your natural attacks.
[2] Well, the feat "Feral Combat Training" allows you to use one natural attack with the Flurry of Blows feature, if you're a monk. But that's it.
IF your GM lets your character take Monster feats -- and I wouldn't bet on that happening unless he's in a really sunny mood.
Why does a GM have to be in a "really sunny mood" to let a PC take a feat he qualifies for?
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Thanks for all the responses. I guess where I got it confused was that a "claw attack" is simply an ability like anything else (breath weapon or gaze for example). Whereas I assumed you could use a claw, like an item, the same way you could use an equipped weapon (like a sword) or something.
The way it works:
An ability.
"I am making a claw attack" like saying "I am using my cleric channel"
vs.
My brain:
An item.
"I am making an attack with my claw" like saying "I am making an attack with my staff"
Whereas the second example you could CHOOSE to use a claw because it is the piece of equipment you will never leave behind :-)
Whereas the second example you could CHOOSE to use a claw because it is the piece of equipment you will never leave behind :-)
Yeah. This is just an area where the rules aren't necessarily real-life logical. Where it would get really unbalanced would be cases where a monster has a single, very strong natural attack -- multiple attacks per round with hippo behemoth's bite, for example, would be a bit much. If I were running the game and I didn't think you were up to anything especially ridiculous, I'd probably allow most natural weapons to be used as offhand weapons, but that's against the rules.
Feats from the Bestiary aren't allowed in Society games, which sucks for druids or barbarians who want Improved Natural Attack, or witches who might want Ability Focus (some Hex). But, at least in my locality, the understanding is that they're Core.