Does it? If it does, it would be rather weak, seeing as the DC would only ever be 14+Charisma mod, which is usually a dump stat for most inquisitors.
Why would it be Charisma-based?
It's listed as a spell-like ability, so presumably it is a spell-like ability. In which case, the save DC depends on Charisma:
That said, what would lead one to conclude that there's no save?
The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature's Charisma modifier.
The next paragraph in that link states:
Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
Since discern lies is not a wizard/sorcerer spell, it should default to the cleric first and be used with Wisdom, right?
That said, what would lead one to conclude that there's no save?
Nothing other than the fact that it would rarely work otherwise.
Since discern lies is not a wizard/sorcerer spell, it should default to the cleric first and be used with Wisdom, right?
Nope. The passage you quoted is for determining the spell level and little else. Spell-like abilities ALWAYS use Charisma except where specifically noted.
Since it isn't noted in this case, you use Charisma, which has the side effect of making it rarely work (as your DCs will be seriously low).
I'm wondering if it was the intent for it to automatically succeed. You know, it duplicates the effect of the spell rather than the entire spell itself. If not, it seems like a pretty lackluster class ability.
Looking at it I would say it gives a save, and as written it would be DC 14 + WIS (I would say WIS because that is the casting stat of the inquisititor). If your GM wants to make it a bit better up it to 10 +1/2 inquisitor level + WIS. From the look of things I would say it's SUPPOSED to be silly and weak. Also there is nothing there that says you can't use sense motive at the same time to see if they are, just making the save.
Edit: thought of another way to power it up (for GMs), just make it grant a +10 bonus to sense motive to the inquisitor, that might have a stronger effect, and make it counter glibness.
Edit Edit: just reread glibness, it seems that it's a +20 bonus not +10, I guess a +20 could be just as well for the inquisitor, but that seems a wee bit too strong, especially for a class that generally has a good WIS and maxes out sense motive.
Nope. The passage you quoted is for determining the spell level and little else. Spell-like abilities ALWAYS use Charisma except where specifically noted.
Since it isn't noted in this case, you use Charisma, which has the side effect of making it rarely work (as your DCs will be seriously low).
I'm wondering if it was the intent for it to automatically succeed. You know, it duplicates the effect of the spell rather than the entire spell itself. If not, it seems like a pretty lackluster class ability.
Ahh ok. That does blow. I suppose it's just meant to be used against much lower level mooks, but that's not much fun.
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While I was wrong about it not being a spell rather than a spell-like, this reference to spell-like abilities is with regard to monsters and creatures- it is in the Bestiary. No where in the core rulebook does it state that the saves are CHA-based. You'll note this rule on the SRD is listed under the universal monster rules. It should be matching the class' primary spellcasting stat, so in the case of inquisitors, it should be WIS, functioning as a spell for an inquisitor.
This is what anyone with only access to the core rulebook would conclude.
Do you know if someone makes there save.
Do you know if someone makes there save.
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: "A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells."
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Surprised to see this necroed, still disagree with the earlier conclusion, so I went and did more research.
The Inquisitor's ability of discern lies is unique that it is a class-granted spell like ability that has a saving throw that could be charisma or wisdom, depending on how you look at it.
Bard: Suggestion, Frightening Tune, Mass Suggestion, Cantrips
Druid: Orisons
Paladin: Detect Evil, Divine Bond
Summoner: Summon Monster
Inquisitor: Detect Alignment
Witch: Poison Steep, Swamp Hag, Hidden Home, Speak in Dreams, Summon Spirit
Wait a second! Druid orisons aren't spell-like abilities, according to the book. Besides, the ability grants unlimited use of 0-level spells the druid has available, it doesn't turn them into spell-like abilities. Bards use charisma for spell casting anyway. The witch's hexes all use intelligence, even if the hexes are listed as spell-like abilities. The summon monster ability turns a full-round action to cast into a standard action, and requires no save.
I disagree about the MONSTER rules for spell-like abilities applying to character classes. The monster rules even state it in reference to creatures with spell like abilities, not from class abilities. Specifically, the rules that regular players are intended to see specifically state that the ONLY differences between a spell and a spell like ability are as follows:
1. The spell like ability is mentally cast, requires no other components or focus, and has no chance for failure due to armor.
2. It is always cast as a standard action unless otherwise specified (just like Discern Lies says)
Since the CRB definition differs from the Universal Monster Rules, I'll throw them out here.
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability’s effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.
Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability is based on would be subject to spell resistance.
A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit; unless otherwise stated, a creature can only use a constant spell-like ability on itself. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action. Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Charisma modifier.
Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
Format: At will—burning hands (DC 13); Location: Spell-Like Abilities.
Since it is behaving as a spell that the Inquisitor has in his spell list, it should behave as a spell otherwise would, as the rules state. Therefore, I still conclude that Discern Lies is Wisdom based, not Charisma based.
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My argument is essentially that of the context of the rules. I do not think that the CRB and Universal Monster Rules conflict, they merely apply in different situations. Are there any creatures who can cast spells as anything but a sorcerer or oracle and use spell-like abilities (without character levels)?
I love seeing an old thread getting new attention. *Basking in narcissism.*