I understand the Spell level suggestion. However, I'd think the rate would be almost exponential; Just because a wizard has access to New, Expensive spells, does not erase his older demands, nor are the new spells of the same lower value... but anyways. Certainly one of the better alternatives ^_^
Competition. The larger communities required to sell higher level spells would also have many more lower level spellcasters who will dominate the lower level spell market. After all, they're charging less thanks to their lower caster level. People will only come to the highest level wizard when they either need the highest level spells, or the highest caster level possible. You COULD sell your spells for less, but then so will everyone else, so no real net gain. Even in the best of circumstances you won't sell a lot of spells, so engaging in a price war is a no-win situation. The high level wizards sell high level spells, the low level ones sell low level spells, everybody profits.
...However, would you, as a player or GM, allow the selling of duplicated spellbooks?
Of course! But you're better off selling scrolls, as the scrolls can not be re-sold once used. Otherwise the guy you sold the first book to will just re-sell it when he's done with it, probably to the guy who would have been your next customer. A better idea is to copy your spells and sell ACCESS to that spellbook, rather than the book itself. Thus you only spend time copying your book once, and recoup your investment (per spell) on the second wizard who copies it - after that, gravy.
Otherwise the guy you sold the first book to will just re-sell it when he's done with it, probably to the guy who would have been your next customer. A better idea is to copy your spells and sell ACCESS to that spellbook, rather than the book itself. Thus you only spend time copying your book once, and recoup your investment (per spell) on the second wizard who copies it - after that, gravy.
...I'm going to assume that I'm a pretty busy Travelling mage, with a party of heroes...
That being said... EVEN if that were the case, and the demand for my Spellbooks declined; There is No part of that paragraph I didn't like.
Dude. I WANT magic to be spread. That'd be Awesome! =D
Also, I don't get the bonuses of Cypher Script when writing a scroll, so yeah, no Greedy-fun-times for Mr. Wizard... Still profitable mind you, but selling Spellbooks is just significantly more awesome.
EDIT: Also, I see what you mean, with the Profession. ^_^ Nice thinking.
...I'm going to assume that I'm a pretty busy Travelling mage, with a party of heroes...
All the more reason to sell access to a copy. You can leave it with Wizard X and retrieve it later. You might 'lose' some earnings if the guy copies more than bargained for, but that's not a huge deal. You don't waste time and money repeatedly copying that book over and over again. Let somebody else do the work, and pay you to boot. Also, it means a backup spellbook is somewhere reasonably safe, with a 'friendly' wizard. If he runs off with it, well, adventure to chase him down and take it back (along with his stuff) - or sick the law on him (very bad for resident wizards). Win. If he's honest, easy gold and you make a friend. Win. It's also easier to sell 'renting' a book than 'buying' a book that may have lots of spells you don't want or need. Unless you plan on making on-demand copies, but then you're not 'busy traveling mage'.
All the more reason to sell access to a copy. You can leave it with Wizard X and retrieve it later. You might 'lose' some earnings if the guy copies more than bargained for, but that's not a huge deal. You don't waste time and money repeatedly copying that book over and over again. Let somebody else do the work, and pay you to boot. Also, it means a backup spellbook is somewhere reasonably safe, with a 'friendly' wizard. If he runs off with it, well, adventure to chase him down and take it back (along with his stuff) - or sick the law on him (very bad for resident wizards). Win. If he's honest, easy gold and you make a friend. Win. It's also easier to sell 'renting' a book than 'buying' a book that may have lots of spells you don't want or need. Unless you plan on making on-demand copies, but then you're not 'busy traveling mage'.
..Honestly not sure whether or not I agree with you.
My original thoughts:
Writing the spellbook is not much a problem for me; It costs me about a quarter of the cost of the Other wizard, and a fraction of the time. In as short as an hour or two, I can create an entire spellbook On Demand with most of the spells that will benefit a small village. A single wizard client isn't hogging them all; It's a copy that can be Shared. It doesn't require me to stick around for them to copy. And , by RAW, I can sell it to the Village for about Half the price of what it would Usually cost to write the spells themselves, which is still significant profit Anyways.
All this adds up to a single sale that is Good for the community. And for a Large community, such spellbooks might be in higher demand; Selling 3 or 4 copies to the local library would be more than beneficial, And the more these individual copies cover, the better. Hell, I could probably manage to have them themed, or classified by school.
...And now I read your paragraph...
Well, it would make a lot more sense, especially as a standing Service or Profession, and especially with the more high-tier spells: Demand Determines Value. Those genuinely one situation where I can see the demand for such spellbooks instantly declining, even after one release.
Generally speaking, I read the RAW, and saw that the Price you can sell a spellbook that you find is pretty fixed; This entails to me that it has a Magical Value, Despite the fluctuation in demand for it. Like selling an antique.
I might have to review my tactics if I stay in one place too long, because, of course, Demand is a factor no matter what the RAW states =P
And that being said, I doubt Either of these tactics can be used for long, when attempting to use Profession (Wizard) somewhat long term.
Ahwell. Guess we'll see, and, of course, Ask the GM. Do you have any other suggestions on the matter? ^_^
Even if I Made, Then Sold, a Blessed Book, with Nearly, if not All the spells I know... By RAW, the value does not change; Nowhere can I see an excerpt that says "Add X cost to the value of the spellbook for every Spell Level of spell entered". Which is unfortunate. I think a book like that should have an additional Cumulative value proportionate to the spells written inside; I would either be required to sell it as a Spellbook, which is Half the cost for usually writing the spells inside, or as a Wondrous Item worth 12,500 gp, Whichever is greater.
However, I Do think that in the future I'll be selling Blessed Books to city libraries, instead of mediocre typical spellbooks, for the sheer "Entire Tome of Magical Knowledge" factor... I'm just having a little trouble deciding which would be more profitable. Perhaps the Blessed Books would be, because Any Wizard in the near future can Also add to the collection for free, granted enough pages remain.
City libraries are NOT your target market. First off, large sums of gold spent to buy spellbooks is a BAD investment on their part. It's an expensive, highly desirable and highly portable investment. They'll have to invest in protecting it against rogues and wizards alike. It's asking for trouble and would take decades to recoup their investments. That money could be better spent on actual books of knowledge, which while valuable are less of a gigantic target, and they can still charge access fees regardless.
Second, city libraries probably don't exist. They are huge capital expenses that belong in the modern age with the printing press and cheap pulp paper, where books are economical. Blank spellbooks are 15gp each - put that in perspective, that's more than an average week's wages for most professionals. Parchment is 2sp a sheet, paper twice as much. Your wizard lives in a world where a blank book is worth $500 or more. Libraries are going to be the property of rich individuals with money to burn (nobles and other wealthy types), not governments.
Your target market is the up and coming wizard. He's likely not established and therefore not flush with gold. He may not be able to afford to buy your book at regular market rates, but he may be able to afford to copy a spell or two. You might get lucky and find a dilettante noble who's into wizardry - he'll buy the spellbook and probably keep it for reference.
Established wizards (i.e. guys who sell spells for a living) are established for a reason - they probably HAVE the marketable spells already. They've had decades to acquire them, after all.
Hmm...
Well, first of all, the claim libraries don't exist is Outright wrong. Pathfinder refers to them, in the descriptions of knowledge skills.
Well, Paper is of no concern; If what you say is true, Almost Everything is going to be in literal form written upon Parchment, or perhaps very fine parchment. Scrolls. Also, paper isn't considered suitable, by pathfinder, for Spellwriting, so I'd assume there's a reason for that probably involving its quality.And thus, a Clerk whose specialty is to copy such scripts by hand, Does indeed get paid about as much as a Blacksmith...
Announcements and official message will likely be in the form of scroll... Hardcover, well bound books Would indeed be a work of art... perhaps even most Records, or Archives. But, then again, I'm not an Actual librarian at the moment, and couldn't tell you of the Exact sciences used in earlier history for Preservation, Conservation, or Archiving... But I would Generally suggest Not to discount the idea of a public library, in the day and age of Pathfinder. Probably not exceedingly modern. May not even have a classification system, that most of us are familiar with. XD
But most certainly not extinct, And Certainly Very Existent.
At the very Bare Minimum, I'd suggest that any city capable of housing a School, is capable of housing a temple or secular-mandated building capable of holding Archives and Reference material. And I'd say these places are more than capable of holding Arcane teachings as well.
Alrighty then. You might as well consider that another one of my goals then. If it doesn't exist as we desire it to be, I vote we make it. XD
I've heard of players beforehand attempting the invention of the Steam Engline, in a setting where it shouldn't exist... And then the Combustion Engine. Same with players that abuse their modern knowledge of Chemistry, giving their character a significant push in the right direction Simply because they, as a player, have a bit more awareness of possibilities that the GM likely does not. That doesn't particularly appeal to me... But anyways!
Parchment is pretty dang set in price by Pathfinder, unfortunately; Attempting to reduce the price of a piece of paper is likely not going to happen by RAW, unless by a GM's discretion. Therefore, it would be extremely important to Find ways for written documents to have Value, and therefore be eligible for Proper Preservation and Archiving by Classification.
There are Plenty of forms of historians and archivists from what I can see. Often, these are PC classes as well, such as the Pathfinder Chronicler or the Archivist bard archetype. There are thus plenty of people that could probably Benefit from this.
I'm already thinking about instating a Post system. And there are plenty of religious affairs and various knowledges that Can and Should be archived for a population. Their History, their Foundation, their Traditions, their Folklore, Codex, Legend and ultimately their Culture. Any Lawful society would be interested. Any Pious society would be interested. Any Traditional society too.
So, let's throw in a Magic society to boot.
I will First offer my books to Village Elders and City Halls!
*** End of Rant ***
...hmmm...
Your suggestion for my Target Market, though, outright bothers me... Disheartening. I think it's at this point where I would just Fall back to my whole Tutoring idea, and say "Well then, I guess I'll have to Make myself a market, now won't I?"...
Technically speaking, he Is purchasing the book from me at the Same price as a player is told an NPC would charge for Copying spells from their spellbook. I honestly don't think he's losing Anything from the deal. Plus, once again, it can be Kept elsewhere, copied by other wizards, etc. ...In fact, it's coming out of MY pocket.
"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook "
Plus, I must put emphasis on the fact that such spellbooks can be made by me On Demand, for a twelfth of the time as it would normally take to let them copy. I just have to pay attention to the additional 10gp cost for the Book itself. My profit of (half the writing cost minus a quarter the writing cost) must exceed 10gp. If I truly wanted to, I could simply use individual parchment pages, saving the cost of the whole 10gp book... But I think I'd rather not, for preservation purposes. A whole book may last a whole lot longer.
Anyways. Will continue to ponder on this.
If you are looking for cheap writing material, rice paper is only 5 cp a page. Pretty trivial usually but if you are ording the stuff by wholesale it is a mere 1/8 the price of regular paper and a quarter that of parchment.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services#P
Aye aye, but I don't know just how useful the rice paper is, really. ^_^
...Also, Neither paper is proper for Spellwriting =P Thank you though. If it is indeed a half-decent material for writing... Then that can only Contribute to the whole "Libraries Exist" argument. ^_^
Since it says "Or tree bark" I assume it is the same sort of rice/mulberry bark paper used all the time in the orient. It works just fine for writing. But yeah, it isn't going to fundamentally change the economics of libraries which will exist only in large cities or the homes of rich men. It's less the cost of the writing materials than the cost of writing things out by hand that kept books relatively scarce. The ancient world had some pretty impressive libraries eg Alexandria or Pergamous. Rome had several dozen, IIRC. But only in large, rich cities. By PF standards you'd find them in Absalom, Katheer, Sothis etc. As far as your plans go, you won't make a fortune selling to them.
Truthfully, that's just economics and it depends on how rich your area is, which depends on the GM. The market for magic schooling will depend on it too. In traditional, rural societies even children's labor was valuable and many couldn't afford to have them off the farm that long. That's why we have summer breaks in the US, traditionally people just couldn't spare the labor. How many of yours spells your student could bu again depends on the wealth available to them. Good deal or not, only so many people will want to spend that sort of coin on magic.
...Again, I find the scarcity of libraries questionable...
Mind you, my impression of the availability of Pathfinder libraries comes mostly from the fact that they were mentioned with Skills...
"If you have access to an extensive library that covers a specific skill, this limit is removed. The time to make checks using a library, however, increases to 1d4 hours. Particularly complete libraries might even grant a bonus on Knowledge checks in the fields that they cover.
... the various references to such Scholarly studying, especially to wizards, throughout the various books... and the sheer fact that there are PC playable Classes, like the Loremaster, the Pathfinder Chronicler, and others, that seem to revolve around keeping track of or writing historical works.
Just go to d20pfsrd, or paizo.com/PRD , and type "library" into the search. It doesn't give you the impression that there's at least 1 library in every major city, and maybe several Specialized ones amongst the smaller?
...Regardless, I guess I'll be selling my spells elsewhere, until I can Personally uplift them into existence. XD
Town Hall. Lord's manor. Temples. Virtually any other secular-mandated building, that's bound to keep a wealth of preserved documents. Places a Wizard would Look. Local Alchemist's Laboratory, even.
I'm sorry to say that these counterpoints are sounding rather bleak to me; Go ahead and outright say it. NPC's won't purchase Anything a player has to offer at all.
...Last resort would be Pointing out the excerpt in the core rulebook to the GM, that states that spellbooks can be sold for Half the cost of normally writing the spells available in it... I'll then proceed to point out that the Purchase Limit for any single item, even in a Small Town, is 5,000GP...
...If that doesn't work, I'll proceed to demonstrate the uses of a book as an improvised bludgeoning weapon. -_-
|
Magic's rare? Rob a bank in some far off land. It's not like they'll ever find you without magic.But... but.... I'm Neutral Good! :O Robbing banks might hurt people ;_;
I mean, sure, I've been using the last few days online to conceive of different ways to torture other spellcasters for eternity, attempting to deny them even the courtesy of Death and/or revival...
...But I'm supposed to be a good boy! :O
Merchants spend a small fortune transporting valuable merchandise over large distances.
Imagine if you could offer secure instantaneous long distance transport services for a fraction of the price and.
Merchants spend a small fortune transporting valuable merchandise over large distances.
Imagine if you could offer secure instantaneous long distance transport services for a fraction of the price and.
...Although I find your selection of what to quote... Questionable... ^_^;;
...I agree, and this was my hope in creating a Teleportation Circle array, or at the least a magically aided Post system... Or simply have the guild list members willing to undergo such massive voyages with caravans ^_^
I'm just trying to point out that you may not be able to sell all the spells you would be able to produce in a given amount of time, so don't count on infinite demand.
...They better accept, or I'll uplift society the Hard way! :O
Mew. ^_^
...I think I'll look into the Ink & Quill book now. ^_^;;
Hmm...
Well, first of all, the claim libraries don't exist is Outright wrong. Pathfinder refers to them, in the descriptions of knowledge skills.
That description says nothing about public (city) libraries. Libraries will exist. Public libraries, where anyone can come in and read/research, are going to be an exotic beast, given the economics (such as they are) in D&D. The most likely form of accessible library is a pay-for-access library, with fairly substantial access fees (compared to the pittance that modern day libraries charge).
Rome at its peak had public libraries. Rome is a bad example, however, as it was really a peak technological civilization. Rome had aqueducts and indoor plumbing, public heated baths, concrete and other stuff that didn't reappear until the 19th-20th century. It was very much an exception to the standard.
D&D isn't history, of course, but look at the facts; a blank 100 page book of 'less expensive' parchment costs 15gp. That's about 1 1/2x the weekly wages of the common professional. Add in the expenses of scribing; ink is 8gp a vial, and a scribe will make at least 7gp/week (his profession check - this is lowballing), this at a minimum doubles the cost of the book. So your average 100 page book costs at least 3x the average man's weekly salary.
That's why libraries are the province of the wealthy. Books of knowledge ARE luxuries. Most libraries are going to be in private hands, possibly allowing either paid access or access to those they consider their friends and colleagues.
That description says nothing about public (city) libraries. Libraries will exist. Public libraries, where anyone can come in and read/research, are going to be an exotic beast, given the economics (such as they are) in D&D. The most likely form of accessible library is a pay-for-access library, with fairly substantial access fees (compared to the pittance that modern day libraries charge).
Rome at its peak had public libraries. Rome is a bad example, however, as it was really a peak technological civilization. Rome had aqueducts and indoor plumbing, public heated baths, concrete and other stuff that didn't reappear until the 19th-20th century. It was very much an exception to the standard.
D&D isn't history, of course, but look at the facts; a blank 100 page book of 'less expensive' parchment costs 15gp. That's about 1 1/2x the weekly wages of the common professional. Add in the expenses of scribing; ink is 8gp a vial, and a scribe will make at least 7gp/week (his profession check - this is lowballing), this at a minimum doubles the cost of the book. So your average 100 page book costs at least 3x the average man's weekly salary.
That's why libraries are the province of the wealthy. Books of knowledge ARE luxuries. Most libraries are going to be in private hands, possibly allowing either paid access or access to those they consider their friends and colleagues.
Make one for me.
...How about we set a difference here, If I may propose. We actually make a theoretical example.
I clearly have a different opinion on this than Pathfinder would allow, and perhaps it's a Little too optimistic than is allowable by pathfinder economics ( All according to RAW, of course. ) I'm personally thinking of hundreds of organizations that not only Can, but preferably Will hire scribes to keep track of their documents. Universities, temples and monasteries, and more. Pathfinder is a world Full of people whom are Literate. Every Bard's tale is bound to go somewhere. Every epic poem, every accounting book, every theoretical or scholarly journal...
...But if you truly believe that such things Are Not even publicly accessable, and are far too expensive to maintain or is too tempting to have in the first place... Then I invite you to make one with me.
We'll take a Very typical example of a Small town that a player's party might stumble across, around the edges of a half-decent country. 1,000 people in population. Base value limit is 1000gp. Purchase value limit is 5000gp. We'll assume that around a Quarter of the town is composed of Tradesmen, Another quarter is composed of Farmers, Herders, livestock keepers, etc. approx. 25 compose the secular authoritative division; The mayor and tax collectors and rich guys that have a say in how things are run. And another 25 people compose the Clergy.
If the above numbers don't make logical sense to you, feel free to switch them around, and assign NPC classes as necessary. Personally, I don't have the time to do it atm, which is why I ask...
Anyways.
Take this town. And, if you would, Picture me the cost it would take to actually hold a kind of Local Library. Some place the town keeps its documents, its history, and various other reference.
The Mage's Guild that I'm planning is, in my ideal view, an organization that makes its money through the many magical-aided services that its members are associated with; whenever someone hires one of its sub-divisions, such as for Crafting purposes, or using magical-aided Post, a part of the proceedings goes into funding the Guild itself. In turn, that Mage's Guild would be a wealth for magical knowledge, Available basically for Free to its members.
Assume that I'm on a mission to Create public libraries in town.
I'll go into more detail later, perhaps; bit stressed and busy atm... but if you have the time, I would love it if you attempted to create this example, of what you believe the Costs of something like this would be. In turn, I'd love to build on that, and possibly plan my own.
Ok, assuming you're setting up a 'public' library (really, this is a private library that allows access, but nevermind). The contents are valuable. If we assume a value of 50gp per book, 100 books = 5000gp, the purchase limit of the community. That will fit in a small room, given that each book is 3lbs each (300 lbs of books). It probably fills several book-closets or chests.
You need someone to do your copying - books don't last forever, after all, and new additions will often have to be copied, or you can sell copies to raise funds for maintenance, whatever. You need a scribe for that. You also need a guard, to keep people minimally honest when the library is 'open'; presumably it's locked six ways to sunday when closed.
So you're looking at 2 people on the payroll at a minimum, each probably pulling in 7.5gp/week (take 10 + 1 rank + 1 WIS bonus + 3 class skill), for 15 gp/week. That's 780gp/year in salaries. You also have expenses, like ink, heating and lighting. Let's call that another 100gp per year, as the scribe can probably make his own ink as part of his profession. So about 880gp to run the place per year.
Then you have to pay for the building its in. I'd rather not use the old Stronghold Builder's Guide, as it's nutso. I'll use the Land and Home Guide by Dark Quest Games, which is simple, reasonable and not expensive to buy the PDF. It puts urban lots at 10gp per 25 square feet (5' square). Let's say you're buying a 20'x20' lot to house your small library. That's 16 squares, or 160gp.
We'll opt for a stone floor (800gp), stone walls (1600gp) and a lead roof (320gp), because we don't want our library to burn down should a nearby fire erupt. No interior walls, single floor. A wooden door (15gp) and perhaps 8 reinforced glass windows for extra light (each being 6 sq.ft. and costing 120gp, for 960gp). The door gets a superior lock (150gp Core), the windows don't open. I'll assume as a wizard you can add things like Magic Mouth and other traps for free. Assume another 100gp for furnishings and another 200gp for some average locks on the inside. That's 4350gp for the building (you could go a lot cheaper with a wooden structure - 2130gp for wood floor/walls/roof plus stuff mentioned above). You could cram it into a smaller space, of course, but then there's nowhere to do reading, or for the employees to have meals, etcetera.
So 5000gp for books, 4350gp for the building, and 880gp per year to run the place. That's a small library (100 books), but would probably do without needed expansion until about 1000 books (YMMV). This is the sort of thing temples operate, but they get lots of donations and generally sell spells to stay operating. If you wanted to cover your operating expenses with taxes, you're looking at a 1gp/person/annum tax on the populace. Given a good section of the populace is not earning a living (dependents, children), it's probably 3gp per working stiff, or half a week's wages.
I'd just like to make the note that the Purchase Limit of a small town is for any Single item. But, other than that... okie ^_^ Now we look at Income ( which is probably nothing, or next to nothing ), and Expenses...
We'll do Expenses first.
...Another side note; I love this. XD Sorry... just.. Yay! Okie.
The list of all things you've suggested so far, I'd agree with. To go over:
- 300gp Plot of Land -
- 8,000gp Building -
- roughly 30gp per new book -
I'm going to assume the original estimate was based on an estimate of the Knowledge Within a book. Unfortunately, I can't really find much to back up that statement by RAW, but I do agree with the prospect. That is thus something that needs to be discussed in further detail, I think. Maybe a library is simply started because of its use, or employment, as an Archiving center. Or maybe it truly does go out actively seeking and purchasing books that it deems of value for a certain realm of knowledge. Regardless, I think it's safer to assume that This library is a Specialty library, mostly following the latter, and Spellbooks and magic matter is a Huge exception to the pricing rules.
- 40gp / week in salaries. -
secondly, I'd hire at Least two guards; Night Watch and Day Security. The details of that, we might go into later...
Finally, I want to include At least One other fellow; A mix between a Town Crier and an Oratory Performer. This is, of course optional and conditional: If there's going to be several Epic Tales present at the library, other bardic works, or if the Library is going to be keeping track and history of announcements / Post / News from the rest of county, then the Library might do well to be the one hiring a Town Crier. Furthermore, people might actually pay to hear his performances, and this grants the fellow an Exceedingly lucrative position, with a library that can actually go out of its way to purchase tales and epic poems that the Town would be interested in, in turn.
I'll assume roughly 16/two weeks, for all 5. Anything extra can be assumed to tip volunteers or pay workers for menial extra chores, for things like Cleaning the building.
... Would you agree to Those expenses for having a Standard, relatively open-to-public library? Keep in mind, these are expenses Without magical aid.
All the spoilery tags make it hard to reply at length; I was going for a reasonable minimum (one scribe, one guard during open hours, locked down otherwise) in terms of expenses and outlay. You can certainly go for more. Each body, assuming 1 rank, class skill and +1 attribute usually gets 15 on their profession/craft roll, so they'd be paid 7.5gp per week. The 50gp/book thing included blank book (15gp), Labor (7.5gp/week), ink (8gp a vial!)...I benchmarked it at 50gp per book on the safe side. Books often needed illuminators (separate profession!)...heck, any 'realistic' library needs bookbinders and even percamenarii (parchment makers)...somebody's gotta be making these books!
If you're spending 40gp/week in salaries, that's 2080gp annually. A 9th level Wizard 'should' be able to cover this easily if he's selling magic for a living, though as we've seen the RAW supports this poorly.
All the spoilery tags make it hard to reply at length; I was going for a reasonable minimum (one scribe, one guard during open hours, locked down otherwise) in terms of expenses and outlay. You can certainly go for more. Each body, assuming 1 rank, class skill and +1 attribute usually gets 15 on their profession/craft roll, so they'd be paid 7.5gp per week. The 50gp/book thing included blank book (15gp), Labor (7.5gp/week), ink (8gp a vial!)...I benchmarked it at 50gp per book on the safe side. Books often needed illuminators (separate profession!)...heck, any 'realistic' library needs bookbinders and even percamenarii (parchment makers)...somebody's gotta be making these books!
If you're spending 40gp/week in salaries, that's 2080gp annually. A 9th level Wizard 'should' be able to cover this easily if he's selling magic for a living, though as we've seen the RAW supports this poorly.
Alright, sorry. ^_^ I just didn't want to intimidate others interested in this conversation.
Anyways.
The RAW actually supports this Incredibly well; It's all the GM and Logic's analysis of Supply and demand, that makes it all come crashing down. By RAW, I could be pumping out those mundane spellbooks, and make more money than All my party members combined, with minimal resources at my disposal. ( Just spellbooks. ) By Logic, and you've convinced me, and I Prefer to keep roleplay fairly elaborate and nice... It simply doesn't work. ^_^
My income from spellbook selling would even pay for the Obscenely costly "Independent Research" cost, eventually; The very thing I'm trying to improve and Uplift the world from. And if I lived in Large cities, the only limit is how much time I can devote, and my initial resources. By RAW, one simple feat (cypher scripting) means the entire Arcane Magic system can support itself.
...If we weren't trying to actually roleplay this out. XD
...If a book were to be sold at Market Price at 15gp for 100 pages, I would say All production costs for that book can be assumed to be included. It's actually a bargain. I would assume the same for Parchment; the price is a result of the process to create it. A Library could probably order all such materials required to make a book, at a proportionate price, perhaps a piece or two more for shipping and handling =P. The Labor is part of those actually Writing in the books; Making Manuscripts. Scribes and clerks hired to Copy, maintain, etc. If you want me to include a price for Crafting Books themselves, then I'd say by RAW it follows the general rules of such: Pay 1/3 of the item’s price for the raw material cost.
The INK, however, is something you caught me on. XD ...And that's a tough one. A quick search reveals This little thread which poses the question of How many pages can 1 ounce of ink be used to hand-write... but answers Varying greatly. One states ~50. Another, ~600. The OP settled for ~300. I'm willing to settle for ~200, I think. That can be included as a Raw Material cost for a scribe, I assume: 4gp per book in Ink.
I think it's a rather good move to assume 8 gp/week per each hired staff, just to be on the safe side, and I would say the excess would still go to either hiring others for more menial, non-professional chores, or simply contribute to the Upkeep cost of the place.
EDIT: I was also assuming that the aforementioned "scribes" would serve Also the equivalent of a Library Technician, which may in turn be quite familiar with minor book binding and repair...
Anyhoot. Shall we begin summing up expenses, and moving on to Services and Income? Or perhaps we should begin covering Magic alternatives and Magic expenses...or... XD
I REALLY don't know where to go from here. ^_^ I just want my little mage's guild set up. Generally speaking, that would involve most players Throwing money at the GM and saying "This happens."
Anyhoot. CONTINUE!
The 'sticky wicket' is library fees. The only characters that spend significant amounts of gold on libraries are spellcasters researching new spells (by RAW). For everything else it's guesswork territory. Ideally a self-supporting library would cover its expenses and leave room for expansion. Realistically, in a town of 1000 people, probably 10% might use the library to any degree. If you charge those 100 people a yearly access fee, it's close to 20gp/annum, just to cover expenses. This isn't outrageous, at 2-3 weeks wages for what amounts to a luxury service (reading). That's like buying season's tickets or a golf course membership. It might be less people, in which case you'd have to up the access fee, but it gets prohibitive for the 'common man' pretty quickly. It would probably best to keep it at 20gp/annum regardless. The goal is to keep the library accessible, after all.
You could also charge a flat 1gp weekly access fee for those unable to afford/unwilling to buy a yearly pass. This lets you get income from people you otherwise would not, while making the 20gp 'up front' fee attractive for frequent users.
You could rely on patrons and book drives to supply extra books. Obviously the whole scheme works better the larger the community - 1000 people is a low end where it's sort of barely possible for self sustaining operation (never mind set up). 100 books is very low-end as well, however expensive books actually might be.
Both good ideas, in terms of Charging a Fee.
A piece of silver for Daily Access isn't all that bad an idea. ^_^ I mean that's, what, the cost of a Poor man's meal, right? Have the clerk hand you a rice-paper ticket on the way in, with the date printed, and signed.
Monthly access: 2.5 gp. Have the clerk Arcane Mark the back of your palm. As long as the mark persists, you're gold. Twice as gold, and half in silver. Bit o' detect magic makes sure it's not just marker, and distinctly tells if there's any Arcane Mark left, just in case, if the clerks know any cantrips. ( By the by. Mending Cantrip on a library clerk. There's your entire Book Repair section. =P )
Those fees Might be able to sustain the Staff requirement of such a library, and a minor grant by the Mayor now and then is an extra boon. Above everything else, the Staff's salaries won't change much. Even the above can be replaced by a card or ticket, provided by the clerk, instead of an Arcane Mark; The only different is that they May be forged, so the Library will probably need to use its own specially treated paper or parchment.
I love the Book drive idea. ^_^ All that's really left is to determine what Types of books a small town would be interested in, and starting to purchase or scribe Those. How-to books would probably be an Astounding idea. Virtually any book of general knowledge that can help. I can see a library being tied with several other small community groups, like a group of Scouts reporting their findings and knowledge of the local woods. They might even request books to be Made. Maps can be gathered, and stored...
Alright, Starting to get back on the main idea here. ^_^
Uplifting! RAWR!
I think that's enough planning needed for the library. ( Although, STILL feel free to add. XD ) ... Now we move on to incorporating Magic into all of this.
The Mage's Guild can be a special sect of library, basically. My ideal was to let mages be able to add, and copy from, the Guild's repertoire as they please, given ample security.
Instead of truly worrying about people just mooching off the guild's generosity, I was going in the direction of having Special Contracts, with guild members; Contracts that, once agreed to or fulfilled, would allow them access to spells as such. The Higher the level of spell desired, or the more dangerous the school, the more the Mage needs to agree to or provide the Guild with, Especially in terms of contact information.
In exchange, the Guild essentially promises to remain neutral in several matters, as long as the mage acts Outside of communal legislation, or something similar.
I don't know; Merely a thought. XD
While we're on the subject of Economics though, we might as well get around to the following:
1) Where Exactly does the independent research fee come from?
2) What services can be provided to Witches? Bards? Alchemists?
3) How many of these services are applicable to NPCs? What services can be made more NPC specific?
Generally speaking, my plan was simple; If I wasn't simply travelling from city to city, dropping Spellbooks as I go, and encouraging the general populace... Then I was actively finding a town similar to the one mentioned above, and Promoting magic into the community.
Similar to the ways a Player can make much money through magic, a brainstorm might be required as to what the benefits of having a more Magic-oriented town would be. ^_^
I would take on a Cohort, at level 7. I would Use this cohort to gather likeminded individuals in a community... and have Them, with my aid, begin to truly develop these things.
Use magic to create new housing. Use magic to help farm better crops. Use magic for protection. Find a way to craft exceedingly useful magical Tools, without breaking the town's budget. Develop the Mage's Guild Hall; Something that will ultimately serve as the Library, a town Post, a place to organize bardic events, and place orders for more expensive materials abroad... And much much more...
Then I'd dismiss my cohort. XD Let him live his peaceful life, hopefully Inspired by the idea, and continuing to help his community. If I'm level 9, then I'll practically Force him to take Leadership. Then he could continue with such work all over again ^_^
A piece of silver for Daily Access isn't all that bad an idea.
Well, you don't want grubby dilettantes. Remember that you probably don't allow borrowing; read-on-site only. Wealthy merchants don't want to be reading books beside the 'common man'. Of course you can side step this by renting reading rooms away from the main tables. You can also sell wine in those reading rooms.
Monthly access: 2.5 gp. Have the clerk Arcane Mark the back of your palm.
I don't think people will go for that. The little stamps on the hand at amusement parks are bad enough and they last about a day. Who wants the back of their hand stamped for a month? All you need is a slip of paper with name, month and arcane mark for veracity. Make a stamp that casts Arcane Mark as a magic item and you don't need the librarian to be a caster (you can do the same with Mending).
Instead of truly worrying about people just mooching off the guild's generosity,
Charge normal rates to copy. Access ALONE is a big privilege. No wizard is ever obligated to allow copying, so having a library where it's just 'pay to play' is good enough. As for guild behavior, most guilds self-police with regards to quality of services and honest business practices (and social behavior).
1) Where Exactly does the independent research fee come from?
Research materials (i.e. expendable stuff). Consultancy fees is BS, given that most Wizards ARE the experts in their field (Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft). I've always thought the fees were basically sacrifices to the gods of magic to allow a new spell to actually work; any other explanation will fall apart on close examination. You CAN'T sidestep the fees by having your own library, 20 ranks in requisite skills, or whatnot.
2) What services can be provided to Witches? Bards? Alchemists?
A boot to the head. ^_^ Seriously though, you can sell Witches scrolls they can use to teach their familiars. Alchemists can learn some wizard spells as extracts.
3) How many of these services are applicable to NPCs? What services can be made more NPC specific?
Do you mean NPC classes? Not so much. Nobles and other rich people take up knowledge skills as a hobby; for them it's about disposable income and boredom.
Use magic to create new housing.
Wall of Stone is less useful than at first blush. It takes a LOT of castings to make something approaching useful (3"-4" stone walls don't support much weight) and brick walls go up pretty fast. Also keep in mind you're shortchanging the local economy (all those masons, brickmakers and carpenters) by making buildings out of magic. It's not uplifting a society to put people out of work unless you also retrain them to a new job.
Use magic to help farm better crops.
Very useful, though more the province of druidic magic.
Use magic for protection. Find a way to craft exceedingly useful magical Tools, without breaking the town's budget.
That's the trick, really. When a few hundred gp outfits a workshop, it's hard to justify something that costs thousands of gp just to make one crafter slightly more productive. There are things like grain mills (wind/water dependent) that could be powered by magic, but again the cost/benefit issue rears its head. Only when you LACK an otherwise free power source do you resort to such measures.
Water purification is one important area magic can help. When your wells can cast Purify Food and Drink on every bucket of water drawn up, or on all water passing through the sewers, you sharply limit disease. A public bath that casts Cure Disease will be expensive but basically eliminate disease related deaths in a community.
The problem, of course, is the buckets of cash required to uplift a community in this manner. And once you do it, the jerks who come in and try to take it for themselves.
We might need to make a new thread, titled "Helic & Bane's Economic and Magical Stimulus Package; Uplifting edition".
Where we can effectively sort this all out by catagory:
1) Methods for Spellcasters to accumulate resources and finances
2) The Foundation: How to use your resources to establish Community-uplifting Structures and Activities
3) The Upkeep: What to expect of your community, and How to keep it going!
... The Loaned Reading/working rooms are a fantastic idea, if the building itself can support them. ^_^
The monthly Pass seems like a pretty decent idea, but the Arcane Mark would need tob e quite specialized, and it's preferable to have a doorman that can actually Detect magic, in order to properly verify that it's not a cheap forgery on rice paper.
Besides the Perform(Oratory) bards, I'm starting to think of ways a Mage's guild can lend out a member or two, and their various cantrips and services, for the purpose of Playwriting and theatrical entertainment. We've gotta put those Dancing Lights and Ghost Sounds to work!
Witches already have the ability to Basically send their familiar off in search of Other witches' familiars, and share spells with one another. But I do agree, that the Occassional witch can be made a custom-ordered scroll, to learn some magic.
Wall of stone can still be useful over multiple castings, but I see your point. ^_^ If a city can't afford it, you're helping the community by giving jobs far more than you are simply building it for free. Either one helps though!
Speaking of custom orders, I tink it's time to bring the Library out of the Single task of archiving and review; If there can be established a proper Postage system between cities, whether by the Mage's guild ( or a division thereof ) or an Entirely other guild, Then there should be established a Commitee: This commitee would basically be in charge of interlibrary services and exchanges, and generally tasked with keeping track of library contents Everywhere.
Libraries should be able to Custom Order ( if financed by the town mayor, for example, or any noble or even Commoner with some wealth ) the printing of a book regarding Healing (example) from a Major city where medical knowledge is bound to be a little more more progressed. Likewise, a Major city should be able to inquire as to the techniques for Rice Farming, from a small, specialized village, to add to their stock. This mostly depends on a proper postage system, and if sucha thing canb e established, it might increase revenues and overall Uplifting drastically.
Oh...and as for Useful tools...
Selling a little gemstone called the "FreeMan's Device"
6.25gp for a gem that will enchant any mundane tool to do 8 hours of work.
90gp for a gem that will enchant any mundane tool to do this work 8 hours a day, and can be used Every day, Forever, on command.
What say you? Useful and cheap enough?
Of course, I'm talking about creating a gem that casts "Animate Tools".
I like the rest of your ideas, and keep them in mind. ^_^ We may need to conceive of such ways to improve an entire Town, rather than just selling individual tools!
The monthly Pass seems like a pretty decent idea, but the Arcane Mark would need tob e quite specialized,
Arcane Mark is by default unique to the caster (read spell description 'your personal mark' - you don't get to mark 'whatever' with the spell).
Selling a little gemstone called the "FreeMan's Device"
6.25gp for a gem that will enchant any mundane tool to do 8 hours of work.
90gp for a gem that will enchant any mundane tool to do this work 8 hours a day, and can be used Every day, Forever, on command.
There are rules for this. Intelligent magic items can have skill ranks and/or cast spells and be motive, but it's not cheap.
Just to offer something for understanding the village economy: This is where I've actually started building a village for a game, going over the average gold a NPC would likely see in a year, and where most of it is going to go.
It also shows an 80% farmer population, with 1% full time guards and 10% part time possible, a average level of 2~3, with four casters (2% of the population) at levels 1~4.
Arcane Mark is by default unique to the caster (read spell description 'your personal mark' - you don't get to mark 'whatever' with the spell).---
There are rules for this. Intelligent magic items can have skill ranks and/or cast spells and be motive, but it's not cheap.
...Apolgoies. I overlooked Arcane Mark. Probably misinterpretted several months/year ago, and never looked back.
As for the latter... Nothing I was suggesting dealt with Intelligent Items. I got sick of the normal cantrips, so I looked into some 3rd party ones. "Animate Tools" basically instructs a tool to perform its mundane task for 8 hours straight, and has a casting time of 10 minutes. The tool uses your profession or crafting check, as appropriate.
It might be a bit overpowered for a Cantrip, but, heck, even as a 1st level spell for 180gp, I'd say it was a bargain (13gp for a single use, though, so, Not so much in That respect). A farming family that saves up to buy this stone essentially relieves one member of their daily work.
Will look into what you posted now, Abraham. ^_^
As for the latter... Nothing I was suggesting dealt with Intelligent Items. I got sick of the normal cantrips, so I looked into some 3rd party ones. "Animate Tools" basically instructs a tool to perform its mundane task for 8 hours straight, and has a casting time of 10 minutes. The tool uses your profession or crafting check, as appropriate.
It might be a bit overpowered for a Cantrip, but, heck, even as a 1st level spell for 180gp, I'd say it was a bargain (13gp for a single use, though, so, Not so much in That respect). A farming family that saves up to buy this stone essentially relieves one member of their daily work.
Might be overpowered? Compare with Unseen Servant - long lasting and merely moves stuff around for the most part, no skill rolls. This is at least a 2nd level spell (slow man's Fabricate, really - might be 3rd). Beware 3PP spell levels, they're often very wonky.
Your item pricing is off, BTW. Command word items are 1800gp x spell level x caster level. Single use items are priced like potions, 50gp x spell level x caster level.
As for the latter... Nothing I was suggesting dealt with Intelligent Items. I got sick of the normal cantrips, so I looked into some 3rd party ones. "Animate Tools" basically instructs a tool to perform its mundane task for 8 hours straight, and has a casting time of 10 minutes. The tool uses your profession or crafting check, as appropriate.
It might be a bit overpowered for a Cantrip, but, heck, even as a 1st level spell for 180gp, I'd say it was a bargain (13gp for a single use, though, so, Not so much in That respect). A farming family that saves up to buy this stone essentially relieves one member of their daily work.
Might be overpowered? Compare with Unseen Servant - long lasting and merely moves stuff around for the most part, no skill rolls. This is at least a 2nd level spell (slow man's Fabricate, really - might be 3rd). Beware 3PP spell levels, they're often very wonky.
Your item pricing is off, BTW. Command word items are 1800gp x spell level x caster level. Single use items are priced like potions, 50gp x spell level x caster level.
((Single Use (50) * CL (1) * Spell level (.5) )) / 2 (Creation Fee) = 12.5gp per gem
((Command word (1800) * CL (1) * Spell level (.5) / 5 (once per day) )) / 2 (Creation fee) = 90gp per gem
You're right, my calculatinos were off for the first... Divided by two once too much. These calculations are assuming I'm enchanting worthless rocks.
...Alright, I'll scratch the idea.. but Might bring it back as a second level Custom spell, if the GM agrees to that. If I do the independent research costs to find/create it. ^_^ Would be significantly more expensive though.