Intelligent Magic Item Ego vs. Dominate Person vs. Protection from X

[Unmitigated]

Items against Characters wrote:

When an item has an Ego of its own, it has a will of its own. The item is absolutely true to its alignment. If the character who possesses the item is not true to that alignment's goals or the item's special purpose, personality conflict—item against character—results. Similarly, any item with an Ego score of 20 or higher always considers itself superior to any character, and a personality conflict results if the possessor does not always agree with the item.

When a personality conflict occurs, the possessor must make a Will saving throw (DC = item's Ego). If the possessor succeeds, she is dominant. If she fails, the item is dominant. Dominance lasts for 1 day or until a critical situation occurs (such as a major battle, a serious threat to either the item or the character, and so on). Should an item gain dominance, it resists the character's desires and demands concessions such as any of the following:

Dominate Person wrote:

You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject's mind.

If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. If no common language exists, you can communicate only basic commands, such as "Come here," "Go there," "Fight," and "Stand still." You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically.

Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject's behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description).

Let's say that my character has an intelligent magic item, and it's ego is well out of range of me regularly making my save. Let's say that in combat, I get dominated by an enemy that is diametrically opposed to my alignment. My sword is aware that my actions are not jiving with it's special purpose, and forces me into an Ego contest. I fail to exceed his ego with my Will save. What happens?

a: The sword's personality takes over completely, as the dominate effect is against my mind, and the sword is unaffected both because it is a construct and because it is subsuming my personality for it's own.

b: A contest of wills (opposed charisma check) ensues between the sword and the controller of the Dominate effect

c: Nothing, the sword - in replacing my personality with it's own but not explicitly being a mind-affecting effect - replaces my dominated personality but becomes subject to the dominate itself, perhaps gaining it's own (attended) saving throw.

Part 2:

Protection from Evil wrote:

While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target.

Does this prevent an intelligent magic item from taking control of a character? As I read it, the intelligent item is replacing the character's personality, not exercising control per se. Seems like splitting hairs, but this is magic we're talking about here.

[Yure]

...well this is awkward subject that needs an answer. Rise minion and serve your purpose!

[Kayerloth]

1) An Intelligent magic Item is an NPC, with its own thoughts and goals.
2) If the PC is dominated by a foe I'd say it will do its best to make the PC act within its goals and desires ... which I would say makes it very likely to cause the PC to resist and gain the bonus noted under Dominate (at minimum). Unless somehow the unlikely event of the activities desired by the foe coincide with that of the Item. So it's really, to my mind, neither a or b above but if really pushed might start to fall into the extreme circumstances noted under Intelligent Items. But exactly what, I think, is very deliberately left to the individual DM to decide what that might be. Bottom line the Item won't allow itself to be used by the Dominated character. I also don't think it would unreasonable to change the "contest of wills" to one of a "personality contest" between the Item and the Dominating caster. But I can't say that any of the above under 2 is clearly RAW or even RAI.

As for Part 2 ... call me in the camp of a very big NO. Pretty much no force short of the Divine or Artifact quality is going to interfere with or block the Personality conflict between a wielder/possessor and an item.

[Alphavoltario]

If possessed before a dominate spell the spell is cast on what is essentially the possessor in the possessed body, the possessor needs to roll the save or be possessed. "...a caster can target a possessing creature with a compulsion or charm effect. If the possessing creature is the only mind or soul in the host body, the compulsion or charm effect works on the possessing creature normally. If the possessing creature is later evicted from the body, the compulsion or charm effect remains active on the possessing creature when it returns to its original body." -Pulled from d20pfrd rules on possession.

Also from the possession rules if a creature is controlled via a compulsion or charm (in this case <Dominate>) and then possessed by an outside force, the possessor overrides the charm or compulsion.

So from that: Possession > Charm/Compulsion

When your weapon 'takes over' via a ego check, it is essentially 'possessing' you (it is, and can assume direct control of the wielding characters body), so the lost ego contest is a possession effect with a duration of 1 day (during which the item may 'release' the possession if it so desires, such as in the case of prematurely ending a <Magic Jar> spell before the duration ends).

Also as Kayerloth said in regards to your 'Part 2': I have to disagree; the spell of <Protection from (X/Y/Z)> allows a re-roll on a Charm/Compulsion save with a +2 bonus, and will stop further mental control* source for the remainder of the spell. A weapon asserting its agenda is a possession effect if only for the purpose of this interaction so instead we look at the secondary part of the spell "This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target." which will stop the item's control if not only for the duration of the Protection spell (1 min/ level). Unfortunately if the item is neutral in alignment this won't work... just have someone knock the item out of your hand (intelligent items are their own conduit for this possession).

Sorry for the excessive word vomit you see here...

[Cevah]

Part 1) Answer is 'b'. The intelligent item is trying to wrest control from another controller, so the charisma check occurs.

Part 2) The intelligent item can still dominate, but while under the PfE spell, it cannot control things. However, if the protective spell is PfE and the intelligent item is not evil, then the PfE does not protect. The other alignments work the same. If the intelligent item is neutral, you are hosed.

/cevah

[Alphavoltario]

Cevah wrote:

Part 1) Answer is 'b'. The intelligent item is trying to wrest control from another controller, so the charisma check occurs.

/cevah

Yes, unless it's already possessing you. In that case refer to possession rules here:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult- rules/magical-possession/

Unless there is a better place to describe the 'takeover' from a Intelligent Item.

No issues with conclusion drawn to Part 2.

[Kayerloth]

Quote:

Also as Kayerloth said in regards to your 'Part 2': I have to disagree; the spell of <Protection from (X/Y/Z)> allows a re-roll on a Charm/Compulsion save with a +2 bonus, and will stop further mental control* source for the remainder of the spell. A weapon asserting its agenda is a possession effect if only for the purpose of this interaction so instead we look at the secondary part of the spell "This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target." which will stop the item's control if not only for the duration of the Protection spell (1 min/ level). Unfortunately if the item is neutral in alignment this won't work... just have someone knock the item out of your hand (intelligent items are their own conduit for this possession).

And for the record my response is probably influenced by old school AD&D. I'd have no real issue if that's what my GM went with the above, but it's not, strictly IMO, an issue of mind control or possession, but a legacy intent and wording from a much less codified period of the game. It's two close allies and friends (Item and Wielder) having a real vicious falling out over <fill in the blank> and one is doing everything it can to make the other do it their way. Such as twisting out of their grasp, nagging them to death, yelling nasty things at foes attempting to start a fight with their enemies etc.. Perhaps in this case knowing their friend is 'not right in the head do to magical influence' and trying very hard to not let them screw up while befuddled.

[Dave Justus]

I'd probably go with the CHR check, but with limited options.

The intelligent item dominance reads quite a bit different from spells like dominate person. It certainly doesn't read as controlling the bearer action by action, indeed until you get to the 'extreme circumstances' section it seems more like the item refusing to activate any powers unless the concessions are made.

The 'extreme circumstances' section certainly does convey controlling actions, at least long enough to get a fight started or ended. It doesn't seem to imply full, long term control though.

With that in mind, I'd probably allow the item to force the user to not fight at all, or perhaps take a swipe or two at the dominator (depending on swords personality) with a successful CHR check. I wouldn't let the item negate the spell entirely though, taking the character out of the fight or giving a brief window of clarity is the best I think it could manage.