Thanks Mike!
That looks good :)
Reckon if we just took that tone to everyone who turned up at the table with that sort of build we might see a social change? :p
The only change it provided for me was an increase in table oreo consumption.
So.. not likely.
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Given that I may go Half Elf or Half Orc (Though as taking Toothy for an extra attack would require me to take TWF to minimise the penalties on my main attack, this is less appealing) the extra Con was mainly to make up for 7 Int.
With 14 Con I can afford to give up favoured class hp to gain a 2nd skill point.
Alternatively, by going Human I could get:
Str: 18
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 16
I would still get my 2hp each lvl due to Con plus favoured bonus, I would still get 2 Skill points due to 1 + being Human. I would also get an additional Feat. Also, with Cha at 16 I have gained a +1 on saves, extra LoH, more AC and To Hit when Smiting.
What I would lose out on is:
+2 Will save
+2 against Enchantment
+2 Perception
Low Light Vision
Alternatively I could of course get the Half Elf bonuses and the higher Cha, however I would then be only at 1 skill per lvl
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If you want to be good out the gates, you need stat dump and an 18 Str to start. He's wanting to be good, from day 1. You can do this as a half-elf, half-Orc, or human. 16 Cha is ideal to take care of oath of Vengence.
If you want to maximize saves, take traits for +1 Will/Fort. I never take iron will, so wouldn't trade the half-elf bonus for toothy or a bonus feat.
Str: 18
Int: 7 (sorry fanboys, RP it just means you have few skills and are bad at knowledge by RAW)
Wis: 10
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Chr: 16
Then Power attack, with Cleave @ 1 if human. Toothy is actually a great idea, assuming you don't mind diplomacy as your only skill.
You either deal 2d6+6 at +5 or 2d6 + 9 at +4, so right out of the gates you are powerful. Bite deals d4 +4. Smite is +3.
18 Str owns the low levels, and even the high once it becomes a 20 (22). And as you say in PFS for those of us who rarely play that is important.
I generally consider Oath of Vengence "strictly better", it's almost to the point of never where a pally trades swift-action lay on hands to channel.
Edit: oh, and toothy doesn't hurt your primary attack. It does become a secondary, meaning -5 to hit, but TWF doesn't even help that.
You can debate the use of a falchion vs greatsword; but until you improve crit @ 9 the 2 damage > crit range.
Go multi attack on toothy. Same benefit, fewer prerequisites.
The rules you want for mixing natural weapons and manufactured ones are in the bestiary, those are the correct ones as per the FAQ.
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If you want to be good out the gates, you need stat dump and an 18 Str to start. He's wanting to be good, from day 1. You can do this as a half-elf, half-Orc, or human. 16 Cha is ideal to take care of oath of Vengence.
Str: 18
Int: 7 (sorry fanboys, RP it just means you have few skills and are bad at knowledge by RAW)
Wis: 10
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Chr: 16Then Power attack, with Cleave @ 1 if human. Toothy is actually a great idea, assuming you don't mind diplomacy as your only skill.
You either deal 2d6+6 at +5 or 2d6 + 9 at +4, so right out of the gates you are powerful. Bite deals d4 +4. Smite is +3.
18 Str owns the low levels, and even the high once it becomes a 20 (22). And as you say in PFS for those of us who rarely play that is important.
I generally consider Oath of Vengence "strictly better", it's almost to the point of never where a pally trades swift-action lay on hands to channel.
Edit: oh, and toothy doesn't hurt your primary attack. It does become a secondary, meaning -5 to hit, but TWF doesn't even help that.
You can debate the use of a falchion vs greatsword; but until you improve crit @ 9 the 2 damage > crit range.
That's what I thought, but reading the Core:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.If it is indeed simply the Bite attack getting a negative then I think Toothy would be cool (you can get this as one of the two traits right? It does not have to be the actual Toothy 'Race' trait that replaces Ferocity? Also, is the Bite not only half Str damage? So d4+2? and as a secondary attack would PA only give it +1? I admit Natural Attacks confuse me a bit
Given that I won't be getting Weapon Focus, or at least by the sounds of it not before I get Furious Focus, then Greatsword for early levels is all good.
Only 1 skill point would be painful, but the Toothy fun, Dark Vision and +1 to all saves (If I replace Ferocity) could make it worthwhile - especially Dark Vision
I should become a dentist. This keeps comming up
atural Attacks and Weapon Attacks (10/30/09)
Q: The rules for Natural Attacks and weapons from the Core book are different from what is in the Bestiary. The Core rules say that if combining natural and weapon attacks that they are treated as if using two-weapon fighting, but the Bestiary matches to what is in the 3.5 rules. Which is correct?
A: (James Jacobs 10/30/09) Part of the problem, alas, is that this is a rules mechanic that Jason was wrestling with up to the very last second. The Bestiary rules are correct. The part in the core rules that contradicts this is a fragment, alas, that stuck in there. It should be cleaned up, I agree. It's unfortunate that the confusion is in there, but again, as far as I understand the game and as far as I've been using the rules for the last several volumes of Pathfinder, the rules from the Bestiary are the correct ones. [Source]
Beastiary- Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
Great, so only -5, no need for TWF. Counts as secondary but not off hand, so does that mean I get full Str bonus and PA is +2? Or is it still .5 Str and PA +1?
Also, when I gain an Iterative attack I still get to be Toothy, right? :)
-its explicitly 1/2 strength (since its a secondary attack, and i believe the intent is for 1/2 the bonus on power attack.
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I have to admit, this keeps suprising me. I've never done PFS so don't know what its like, but in typical games I've done if there is a caster there is going to be plenty of Will saves being required, and there are usually a decent number of casters. The idea of games where I rarely need a Will save seems crazy...though rather refreshing
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The problem with paladins is that they simply do not have enough spellcasting for it to amount to a damn. Money is generally not a problem once in the double-digit levels, meaning any neato-keen spell you want is just a cash+UMD away....so what "absolutely phenomenal" spells did you have in mind which are worth taking the feat?
Though you only get access to 4 spells (1/spell level), you can, of course, prepare them multiple times, and they are often better than the standard paladin selections (imo).
By level, those spells are:
1st: Vanish, Beguiling Gift, Touch of Gracelessness, Murderous Command, Ray of Sickening, Ear-Piercing Scream, Wrath
2nd: Blindness/Deafness, Gallant Inspiration, Glitterdust, Heroism, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Piercing Shriek, Pyrotechnics, Sound Burst, Hold Person
3rd: Haste, Displacement, Invisibility Sphere, Overwhelming Grief, Slow, Thunderous Drums, Dispel Magic, Good Hope
4th: Dimension Door, Dominate Person, Greater Invisibility, Wall of Sound, Battlemind Link, Divine Power, Hold Monster, Stoneskin, Blessing of Fervor, Spiritual Ally
My personal choices are bolded. Now, due to my archetype choices I tend to make, certain spells like Stoneskin don't make my list (because I'd rather get them through the archetype), but, aside from the 1st level spells, the other spells are more difficult to come by, and having them on your spell list means you don't need to worry about the chance of failure with UMD. I will admit, some of the choices on there aren't the best ones, but I felt that all of those choices complimented the paladin's ability to act as either a self or party buffer, as the case may be.
@TarkXT: Indeed I did. Added. Thx.
You left Good Hope off your list sir.
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Well, first a 13 int on a pally is VERY tough to pull off. This is also PFS; so no 4th level spells; only at the very end of your career do you get 3rd.
For a pally type, Litany is the best splash. But when we're talking 1st and 2nd level spells with a pally, I'd buy wands and focus on UMD before I used a precious feat. Haste is really the exception here, but by the time you can cast it you can have the boots to use it as a swift action.
If you are Andoran or Silver Crusade (as most Pallies are), you'll rarely need more than diplomacy as a skill. UMD is nice, and of course if you are a rider you need ride/handle animal, but as a 2 hander I would keep the wisdom over 1 skill point. When in doubt, if he sticks human and is willing to give up his "toughness" favored class bonus he gets 3 with a 7 int. That first skill point costs 4 build points.
I face more will saves in PFS than any other; especially with every module writer on low level scenarios using color spray. They avoid compulsions though; in fact, I have only seen that in the "module scenarios" (harrowing). They don't like PVP.
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Perception is not a class skill and with -2 from Wis it now takes 2 skill points just to be 0. 4 Skill points to be where you would be as a Half Elf. 4 build points and 4 lvls of a skill would give me +2 to perception.
Sense Motive is a bit better as its a class skill, but again, getting -2 to it almost seems counter productive if the argument is keeping Int for skills
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Perception is not a class skill and with -2 from Wis it now takes 2 skill points just to be 0. 4 Skill points to be where you would be as a Half Elf. 4 build points and 4 lvls of a skill would give me +2 to perception.
True...if you're straight class. Multiclass is another matter:
Theme: halfling who wants to see the world and learn a bit of everything....
STR-13 (bump 4th)
DEX+15 (bump 8th)
CON:13 (bump 12th)
INT:14
WIS:08
CHA+16
racial alternativess: Outrider, Underfoot
traits: Freedom Fighter [Andoran halfling], Dangerously Curious
01 fight1 [dragoon] Mounted Combat, Skill Focus:Ride, Two Weapon Fighting
02 mnk1 [Zen Archer] Perfect strike, Precise Shot
03 pala1 Quick Draw
...has two ranged attacks or two melee attacks at 2nd level, as well as a mount attack.
Equipment: Riding Dog, two MW shortswords, STR+1 composite longbow, studded leather barding, scrolls of CLW, Mage Armor, Shield, half-dozen 50gp "masterwork tools" for various skills.
Class skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (dungeoneering) (engineering) (history) (religion), Perception, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Stealth, Survival, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Skill bonuses: Handle Animal +2 (Outrider), Perception +2 (halfling), Ride +5 /+8(9th) (Outrider + Skill Focus), Stealth +4 (size), Use Magic Device +1 (Dangerously Curious).
04 pala2 STR>14
...simultaneously purchase Belt of Giant Strength +2 and MW STR+3 composite longbow.
05 pala3 Indomitable Mount
06 pala4
07 pala5 [bonded mount], Boon Companion
Equipment: Belt of Giant Strength +2, +1/Seeking STR+3 composite longbow, +1 lance, Bracers of Armor +2, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Elven chain barding for badger mount
Tricks: badger has burrow and climb speeds; takes Dazzling Display, Extra Rage and Intimidating Prowess as feats.
08 mnk2 [Zen] Weapon Focus:Longbow, Combat Reflexes
09 fight2 [dragoon] Ride-by Attack, Power Attack
10 pala6
11 pala7 Spirited Charge
12 pala8
Base saving throws at 12th, after bumps but before equipment: Fort +16, Ref +11, Will +12
I hate Halflings, but I really like that one!