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I am kinda baffled with the caravan rules when it comes to the hopelessness of fixing the caravan with magic (mending, make whole etc to fix the damage, and/or healing to fix the guards), versus feeding the people (where even the humble Goodberry spell has effect).
On a related note, I could not help raise an eyebrow when my bard with +8 in Knowledge (Engineering) had nothing to offer in terms of hastening the effort. He needs to have crafts and profession skills to contribute. Extensive knowledge on how wagons work does nothing.
Caravan, why are you so hard to fix?
Yes, but funny anyhow.
If there were many clumsy, perverted and fun people like you the world would be a better place.
and for your problem well you know it just how it works....
If there were many clumsy, perverted and fun people like you the world would be a better place.
and for your problem well you know it just how it works....
Clumsy? Perverted?
As for the second one, I just think it seems odd. I just imagine if Jesus joined a caravan that took 100 damage, his magical healing powers and other assorted miracles would do nothing... but luckily, he is a carpenter.
Rule Zero, folks.
Generally, if PCs come up with useful ideas based on their skills or feats or spells, I'd certainly add that to the list of useful things to do. Encourage PC initiative on things like this, and you get less in the way of monofocused minmaxed combat monsters.
If you reward something, you get more of it. Reward player creativity and initiative.
Appropriate Knowledge checks could certainly substitute for Craft/Profession checks. Appropriate spells should give a benefit of one sort or another. Someone with Appraise should let the PCs get some more valuable cargoes (or something along those lines.)
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You could try doing something with the repair rules in Ultimate Combat:
Repairing a Vehicle: The fastest and easiest way to repair a vehicle is with the mending and make whole spells, but more mundane methods can also be used. Craft (carpentry) can be used to repair most vehicles made of wood; because of their specialized construction, water vehicles require Craft (ships) to repair. Depending on the nature of the damage, such skills like Craft (cloth), Craft (alchemy), Knowledge (engineering), and even various professions can be used to repair vehicles, if the GM approves. In general, a day's worth of work by a single person using the appropriate skill to repair a vehicle requires 10 gp of raw material and a DC 10 skill check, and repairs 10 points of damage on a success, or 5 hit points on a failure.
While UC does have rules for wagons, the HP totals are about double to triple those given in the caravan rules. This doesn't matter for the skill checks, as the caravan rules actually heal more, but I'd consider reducing the amount spells can fix. In particular, if mending healed 1d4 with every casting, there'd be no reason to ever take wainwrights; spamming the 0-level spell would do the job faster and for free. I would have make whole repair half the normal amount per casting, and only allow mending to let a spellcaster to fill in for a wainwright with no bonuses.
I am kinda baffled with the caravan rules when it comes to the hopelessness of fixing the caravan with magic (mending, make whole etc to fix the damage, and/or healing to fix the guards), versus feeding the people (where even the humble Goodberry spell has effect).
On a related note, I could not help raise an eyebrow when my bard with +8 in Knowledge (Engineering) had nothing to offer in terms of hastening the effort. He needs to have crafts and profession skills to contribute. Extensive knowledge on how wagons work does nothing.
Caravan, why are you so hard to fix?
Well, I haven't had an opportunity to put the caravan rules through their paces, so I can't say that they aren't borked.
However, to your bard - no, Knowledge (Engineering) isn't going to speed up the wagon repair effort. The skill descriptor is:
Knowledge (Engineering) - buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications.
NOT
Knowledge (Engineering) - the design of anything.
The skill, RAW, is clearly limited to engineering as it relates to the construction of structures. Does it make perfect sense as we define engineering today? No. It does prevent it from becoming an uber-skill that can apply to everything a player might want.
If I were GMing it, however, I'd let it be a substitute skill (at a penalty) if nobody had the necessary Craft & Profession skills.
If there is ANY skill that does not need to be restricted, it is knowledge (engineering).
Arcana, dungeoneering, nature, planes and religion all have combat uses, and are all likely to be VERY useful outside combat for the average adventurer.
Local, history and nobility can all be used to learn key information to gain an edge in a politically geared campaign.
Then we are left with Engineering and geography. And Geography at least have some obvious uses, like giving you an edge by knowing what manner of landscape you are going to deal with in a certain region.
Engineering, as it stands, has ONE application as far as I have seen: "Is it safe to step on this bridge/enter this building?". And if THAT was the point, why strip the most appropriate term (Architecture) from the old skill, in order to keep the term (engineering) that seems like it does not apply at all.
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Knowledge
Check: Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).
Craft
Check: You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the craft’s daily tasks, how to supervise untrained helpers, and how to handle common problems.
Knowledge gives you the ability to design. Not the ability to work with your hands in making somthing. Knowledge is a pure mental skill. Why craft is a physical skill.
If there is ANY skill that does not need to be restricted, it is knowledge (engineering).
Arcana, dungeoneering, nature, planes and religion all have combat uses, and are all likely to be VERY useful outside combat for the average adventurer.
Local, history and nobility can all be used to learn key information to gain an edge in a politically geared campaign.
Then we are left with Engineering and geography. And Geography at least have some obvious uses, like giving you an edge by knowing what manner of landscape you are going to deal with in a certain region.
Engineering, as it stands, has ONE application as far as I have seen: "Is it safe to step on this bridge/enter this building?". And if THAT was the point, why strip the most appropriate term (Architecture) from the old skill, in order to keep the term (engineering) that seems like it does not apply at all.
As an engineer in real life, i can assure you, that the knowledge about engineering doesn't really help you in doing those repairs, at least not without practicall knowledge which is represented with the craft and profession skills.
I met a lot of engineers who thought, just because they studied the topic, they would have more practical knowledge then someone whoe learned the practical part of the profession and mostly they were proven wrong...
Implying fixing a wagon is beyond an engineer? Gotta tell that one to my father sometime, he would have a laugh.
But that is irrelevant. When it comes to skills in Pathfinder, it is not even remotely related to what you can and cannot do in real life. It is a question of getting back what you invest in a skill. An issue of game balance. Of 1 skill point = 1 skill point.
As it stands, I find NO justification for Knowledge (Engineering) to exist. Because there is no use that cannot be covered by another skill, and be heaps and loads BETTER.
Profession (Wis, Trained Only) // Check: You can earn half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession's daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems. You can also answer questions about your Profession. Basic questions are DC 10, while more complex questions are DC 15 or higher.
You can answer questions in your field of profession (in which architect and engineer are used as examples). So why does the knowledge skill even exist, when you can cover BOTH theory AND practical application with profession?
Also, every class except Barbarian have Profession as a class skill. Knowledge (Engineering) is a relatively exclusive skill, only class skill for Bard, Fighter and Wizard of the core classes, and Adept, Aristocrat and Expert among the NPC classes. By the right of exclusivity, you would think it would be the other way around.
+1 more for Aid Another.
Aid another has little effect in the caravan rules though.