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So I've never quite understood how to treat a monster which has an ability score of "-". Most of the time the ability never comes into play, but I have a case where there is a evil incorporeal wizard who is going to use Hand of the Apprentice on the PCs. According to the rules the damage dealt from the weapon is still determined by using the STR stat, but an incorporeal creature has a STR of "-".
So what do I do? Is the STR modifier at -5? -6? 0? After years of playing Pathfinder I've never had to finally figure out this quark of the rules.
I tried to look at the skills for a hint and it seems that by skills alone the rules treat a "-" the same as a 0 and not -5 or -6. Does anyone know for sure how to treat this? Thanks.
Ability scores of "-" are supposed to have an ability modifier of "0" should it come into play, as in the case of an undead barbarian Con's modifer to rage rounds.
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Ability scores of "-" are supposed to have an ability modifier of "0" should it come into play, as in the case of an undead barbarian Con's modifer to rage rounds.
Do you know where this is listed in the rules? Otherwise I know my players will argue that the modifier should be -5? (I have looked but can't find it anywhere). Thanks.
I am away from the books, now, but I *think* you could find it either in the Core Rulebook under the Ability Score section OR in the Bestiary, somewhere.
Some undeads or constructs, perhaps, could be "reverse engineered" to calculate the modifier.
I think you use Dexterity modifier. This from http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Incorporeal-Ex-
(second sentence of last paragraph).
It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB.
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Ability scores of "-" are supposed to have an ability modifier of "0" should it come into play, as in the case of an undead barbarian Con's modifer to rage rounds.Do you know where this is listed in the rules? Otherwise I know my players will argue that the modifier should be -5? (I have looked but can't find it anywhere). Thanks.
Core rulebook p. 16: "Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks". There are similar notes for Constitution and Intelligence.
Here, I found this: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ability_Scores#Nonabilities
It's the old SRD, perhaps in Pathfinder things changed.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
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I think you use Dexterity modifier. This from http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Incorporeal-Ex-
(second sentence of last paragraph).It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB.
Good find, though this doesn't appear in the CRB condition text (p. 567) and incorporeal monsters also get to add their CHA bonus to AC as deflection from the Bestiary, which doesn't necessarily apply to PC-classed characters who become incorporeal.
Ability scores of "-" are supposed to have an ability modifier of "0" should it come into play, as in the case of an undead barbarian Con's modifer to rage rounds.
Undead barbarians use their Charisma for Rage rounds.
No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution(such as when calculating a breath weapon’s DC).
Hope your barb didn't dump his charisma before getting turned into a mummy.
Ability scores of "-" are supposed to have an ability modifier of "0" should it come into play, as in the case of an undead barbarian Con's modifer to rage rounds.Undead barbarians use their Charisma for Rage rounds.
No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution(such as when calculating a breath weapon’s DC).Hope your barb didn't dump his charisma before getting turned into a mummy.
Yes, I'm quite adept at posting wrong rules lately. Oh, well...
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This is all great, but I see a new interesting rules question within this thread.
According to the incorporeal rules "It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB." So if an incorporeal wizard uses Hand of the Apprentice to attack the PCs it would use it's DEX modifier instead of it's STR modifier when rolling for damage? It does matter in this case as it's STR is "-" but it's DEX is 14.
And just for fun I'll add in one more question! I was reading on some of the boards about Hand of the Apprentice and some people were saying that when using this ability the weapon being used only has a crit range of 20/x2 because the weapon they are using is a "thrown weapon". And the rules for thrown weapon are as follows:
Thrown Weapons: The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit.
So what happens if the weapon you are using is a +1 Keen Longsword? Does it still have a crit range of just 20 instead of 19-20? And does it still do the +1 damage?
So in the end an incorporeal wizard using Hand of the Apprentice on a +1 Keen Longsword would use it's DEX modifier to hit and do damage and only have a crit range of 20? Is that correct?
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So what happens if the weapon you are using is a +1 Keen Longsword? Does it still have a crit range of just 20 instead of 19-20? And does it still do the +1 damage?
So in the end an incorporeal wizard using Hand of the Apprentice on a +1 Keen Longsword would use it's DEX modifier to hit and do damage and only have a crit range of 20? Is that correct?
"Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen", p. 471. It would still apply +1 to attack rolls and damage.
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And just for fun I'll add in one more question! I was reading on some of the boards about Hand of the Apprentice and some people were saying that when using this ability the weapon being used only has a crit range of 20/x2 because the weapon they are using is a "thrown weapon". And the rules for thrown weapon are as follows:
Thrown Weapons: The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit.
So what happens if the weapon you are using is a +1 Keen Longsword? Does it still have a crit range of just 20 instead of 19-20? And does it still do the +1 damage?
So in the end an incorporeal wizard using Hand of the Apprentice on a +1 Keen Longsword would use it's DEX modifier to hit and do damage and only have a crit range of 20? Is that correct?
To deal with Hand of the Apprentice more fully (since, to be honest, I haven't taken much interest in the details before):
It's a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, not an improvised thrown weapon. I believe the weapon is treated as if it was designed to be thrown, so it keeps its normal threat range and any applicable special and magic effects, except those that involve combat manoeuvres. However, it's a thrown weapon, so keen doesn't work as I mentioned just before.
The wizard uses his INT modifier on attack rolls. The previous discussion has debated whether an incorporeal wizard uses his Strength non-modifier (+0) or his DEX modifier (+2) to damage. CRB seems to support the former, Bestiary the latter.