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This is late to the party but just thought of it:
Clarify Perception as a non-action check that happens at the start of your turn, which only has to be rolled if a perception DC changed for the thing(s) to be perceived (and if it's possible to fail). And clarify that the observer is flat footed against an attacker that is not perceived.
This solves the "in plain sight" clause of stealth that causes much of the problems when trying to stealth from one bit of cover/concealment to another, without having to re-write stealth, create a new "hidden" condition, or designating a stealthed thing as invisible (which is recursive since invis grants bonus to stealth).
Since any observer observes on their own turn, not the stealther's, the stealther's movement and attacks from stealth are resolved without their coming into potential view being an issue on their turn.
This means a rogue can move from cover to sneak attack, or move from cover to cover and remain hidden, or with spring attack, move from cover, attack, move to cover and re-roll stealth. The observer would get a chance each turn to perceive.
Yea, want to run it up the flag pole before the new stealth rules are finalized. Since this way they wouldn't have to re-write anything or possibly cause more confusion with a new 'hidden' condition.
This way too, the caveats already in stealth (bluff to distract and sniping) just apply to the stealther's starting condition. Distraction/bluff: If a stealther starts his turn percieved (observed) must make a bluff check, if they can make it to cover or concealment, can make the stealth check at the given penalty to end the turn unobserved (forcing the observer to make a perception check). They should clarify that the bluff check is a standard action (making it normally impossible to distract and attack in the same round, or at least no different than how feint already works), but otherwise can leave it as is. Sniping: They could also clarify that sniping has a penalty to the stealth check, as opposed to the run-by attack using spring attack, because is attempting to use the same square of cover/concealment both before, during, and after the attack, and doesn't require a feat. But there too, they can leave it pretty much alone.
forgive my ignoracen, but what are the new stealth rules?
My problem with a rule like that is that it takes away the PC's ability to be reactive to stimulus.
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
If a rogue pops out from behind cover his ability to hide has just changed. Taking away a PC's ability to react to that change leaves them very vulnerable, or forces them to take a move action to actively perceive, what would probably be fairly noticeable. If I'm understanding what you've written, you're essentially giving the rogue continued invisibility through a "hidden" condition. So that they can sneak up on me and still continue to have a big bonus to stealth. If I'm misunderstanding you, please clarify.
Clarify Perception as a non-action check that happens at the start of your turn
Of course, an active check can also be made as a move action. Not suggesting changing that.
They rules as written don't account for how people look the other way occasionally, focus on something else, and don't have 360 degree vision, so, whereas in real life you can sneak up behind someone, you can't in the game without some house-ruling - Since there's no facing, as soon as someone does not have cover or concealment they're spotted.
This issue is part of why they are re-writing stealth. Design recognizes one should be able to sneak up from hiding to attack, move from hiding behind one tree to hide behind another without being noticed, etc.
They are changing stealth to reflect this. My thread is just asking if there's a better way - rather than to a major re-write of stealth, add a new condition, etc. might be simpler and more effective to look at how perception works, and clarify THAT a little bit rather than re-invent the wheel.
This is late to the party but just thought of it:
Clarify Perception as a non-action check that happens at the start of your turn, which only has to be rolled if a perception DC changed for the thing(s) to be perceived (and if it's possible to fail). And clarify that the observer is flat footed against an attacker that is not perceived.
This solves the "in plain sight" clause of stealth that causes much of the problems when trying to stealth from one bit of cover/concealment to another, without having to re-write stealth, create a new "hidden" condition, or designating a stealthed thing as invisible (which is recursive since invis grants bonus to stealth).
Since any observer observes on their own turn, not the stealther's, the stealther's movement and attacks from stealth are resolved without their coming into potential view being an issue on their turn.
This means a rogue can move from cover to sneak attack, or move from cover to cover and remain hidden, or with spring attack, move from cover, attack, move to cover and re-roll stealth. The observer would get a chance each turn to perceive.
I don't like it. Perception should always be on. The game is turned based so we can make playing easier, but to say your perception turns off would not really make sense. You should not get quasi-invisibility against me because it is not my turn.
I don't like it. Perception should always be on. The game is turned based so we can make playing easier, but to say your perception turns off would not really make sense. You should not get quasi-invisibility against me because it is not my turn.
Perceived things stay perceived.
This fix is relatively simple - If you aren't aware of someone by the end of your turn, then you aren't aware of them. That gives them an advantage on their turn, either to move about unnoticed or attack. They still have some hurdles to stay unnoticed (which are already defined in the rules), and you get another chance each turn regardless.
Yea, I agree, it should not be that you shut your eyes and cover your ears when it's not your turn, and I'm not saying that. But the problem they're trying to fix, imo, stems from is the opposite issue. It's not a problem with the stealth rules at all, rather that perception's an automatic can't fail alarm system that triggers the second anything moves into a square that does not provide cover or concealment. That's just as silly. Sneaking up behind someone, or moving from cover to cover unnoticed is as common in real life as it is in fiction. People are not perfectly aware 360 degrees around them every second.
They're talking about fixing it though creating a new condition, "hidden" (like a lesser invisibility). I suspect that could cause more confusion than it solves, and am suggesting that to fix perception might accomplish the same thing, and make more sense over all.
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Just adding my '2cp' here
I read a little story about Jack and how he couldn't steal a chicken for his dinner and what I read here adds just a little bit more flavor to cover the 5ft step he has to make in front of the porch between the hedges. If farmer John is rubbing his eyes than the perception check doesn't work and the sneaky character doesn't lose his stealth because a perception check didn't work.
The reason I bring this up is that there is TOTALLY a reason why someone should be able to sneak by in front of someone without that person automatically knowing they are there
Real life doesn't belong in Fantasy life but if it can happen in Real life shouldn't it also be able to happen in Fantasy life?
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I don't like it. Perception should always be on. The game is turned based so we can make playing easier, but to say your perception turns off would not really make sense. You should not get quasi-invisibility against me because it is not my turn.
alright, but a stealthy person should be able to wait til you look away just enough to move a minute bit from cover to cover so they stay hidden...
I know I can't watch everything
and fluff should definitely play a part
you got smoke from the dying fire in your eyes and you wiped away the tears...
do I want someone to sneak up on me? NO WAY!!! but, should someone be able to sneak up on me, yes! things happen and RAW new and old kinda have it so that still stealth means nothing compared to any perception; especially if its super sensitive (blindsense, tremorsense, etc)
as a character, give me a way to bypass those then I guess, if I'm going to play a steathly player without having to go up against rules that say "always notices" and the like...
I don't like it. Perception should always be on. The game is turned based so we can make playing easier, but to say your perception turns off would not really make sense. You should not get quasi-invisibility against me because it is not my turn.Yea, I agree, it should not be that you shut your eyes and cover your ears when it's not your turn, and I'm not saying that.
Mechanically that is what is going on though. I think a better fix would be as long as you don't end your turn in an open area you can stay stealthed. That allows you to walk/run up to someone who is out in the open and could not be walked up on otherwise so you can get sneak attack damage. It also allows you to quickly move from one hiding place to the next, but if you stop in the middle of open plains there is no way to not be seen whether it is my turn or not.
I don't like it. Perception should always be on. The game is turned based so we can make playing easier, but to say your perception turns off would not really make sense. You should not get quasi-invisibility against me because it is not my turn.
alright, but a stealthy person should be able to wait til you look away just enough to move a minute bit from cover to cover so they stay hidden...
We agree on that.
Seems clear this approach wouldn't make things simpler as I'd hoped.
Just to take about it a bit more, though, consider Claude Rains the Invisible Man, and Waldo (from the "Where's Waldo" puzzles). Claude has the benefit of a condition, but Waldo doesn't. Waldo is plainly visible and in line of sight (with out without some cover/concealment), but you don't know he's there initially, and you have to look pretty carefully to become aware of him. I see that as the big difference between a quasi-invisible condition, and being hidden. One is a state of the thing, the other is the state of the observer.
Now, once you spot Waldo, you can find him again easily. You're aware of him now. If he was an enemy, you could notice if he moved behind a tree and guard yourself against him. However, before you spot him Waldo could probably move a bit without necessarily drawing your attention (assuming other movement in the scene, etc), depite the fact he remains in view or even breaks cover. Putting this in D&D terms - all you need is normal cover or concealment to be unnoticed initially, and once unnoticed, you have some latitude to remain that way. Once someone's aware of you, that latitude is gone. Question is, how to model that.
If you get rid of the off-turn insta-spot, the stealth rules actually do a pretty good job of that as is. They have a poor choice of words with "direct observation", but replace that with "observer has made their perception check to notice you", what you're given then is a rule where if someone's spotted you, you have to do some bluffing and dive for cover, otherwise they'll be able to keep track of you - Waldo says "look a monkey!" the observer turns and goes "huh, what?" when he looks back, Waldo is lost in the background again. Barring that, Waldo can't lose himself in the crowd. The observer's keeping tabs on him. Likewise, if Waldo emerges and remains in an open area, he becomes easy to spot - mechanically, where the observer is unaware of him, he needs to end his turn in some sort cover or concealment to keep it hard for the observer to become aware of him. If the observer is already aware of him, well, he's out of luck unless he can shake the observer's notice ("look a monkey"), because the observer keeping tabs on him would be aware he moved behind that tree so easily see his head poking out. If he's unnoticed behind the tree and steps out into the open and stays there, he's not even trying to hide, he's making himself noticeable.