So, we are starting up a new game and one of the players who isn't too familiar with the rules wants to play a rogue. I know that rogues are considered one of the worst classes on these boards. I assume because they are based only off of sneak attack, and it is triky to set those up / some things are flat out immune to it.
So far we have been trying to minimize the situations in which she would lose sneak attack / find something else for her to do in combat. She does have darkvision, which helps a bit for the concealment negating sneak attacks. And (Counting animal companions built for combat) there are 6 melee characters counting her, so flanking should deffinitely be possible. At later levels she will likely have a decent UMD, but right now she has a charisma penalty, so using magic items won't really work.
The problem I'm thinking will be that she doesn't have any other melee strategy other than sneak attack that is even remotely viable. She uses weapon finesse, so while she can hit, her damage without sneak attack is 1d6+0, which is really, really lame.
We have suggested the Archaeologist archetype for bard, or the vivesectionist for alchemist, but she gets a bit confounded by lots of options in combat. regocnises this, and wants to keep things simple, and while spells would give her something useful when she can't sneak attack, there are too many options for her to consider it.
Any advise on how to build a useable rogue, or other options would be greatly apreciated.
Level range?
The dervish dancer feat is about as good as it gets for low level rogues afaik
-Play a ninja. The invisibility power they get at second level* comes in very handy for sneak attacks. You can retool the "look" ninja pretty much however you want. I am sorry if you've heard this, but it should be floated as an option
-Combat expertise and imp feint. You can go "look a monkey" with your move action and sneak attack with your standard action.
-Use improved initiative to go first.
"Brute" type rogues can also be viable. Play a half-orc, max Strength, and use a falchion. Take the Thug archetype and work towards Cornugon Smash and Shatter Defenses. Take advantage of the racial Intimidate bonus and Intimidate enemies, which will eventually let you gain Sneak Attack on a full attack without assistance via Shatter Defenses. The Shaken debuff is also a useful one and can synergize well with other party members.
I had a build somewhere which focused on scout (already mentioned) and it's interaction with the thug archetype. Basically you could make enemies run away in terror by slapping them silly.
Feats:
1st: Weapon Finesse
Human Bonus: Sap Adept
3rd: Knockout Artist
5th: Sap Mastery
Rogue Talents:
2nd: Ninja Trick (Unarmed Combat Training)
4th: Combat Trick (Enforcer)
So at 5th level, whenever you charge someone, they are flatfooted (thanks to scout). Since they are flat footed, you deal double nonlethal sneak attack damage (6d6, thanks to sap mastery).
Since you were using your pimp-hand to deal the damage, you deal 1.5 times your level in extra damage due to sap adept and knockout artist. (In this case at level 5, 9 extra damage)
Now Enforcer comes into play, you can intimidate your foe as a free action, because you dealth nonlethal damage (Hope you didn't dump cha). If you succeed, they are shaken for a number of rounds based on the damage you just did (6d6 + 9 minimum), so lets say, forever, basically.
Thats -2 to attacks, skills, saves.
...Or you could switch all those rounds of shaken for one round of frightend where:
Quote:
A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear.
Which is basically taking any enemy out of the fight for one round, guarunteed and best part is, no save. And since the target for intimidate is static (10 + HD + wis mod), boost it enough (I recommend a cane that gives you an enhancement bonus to intimidate) and you don't have to worry about the enemy making a lucky roll.
Very dex and charisma focused, so probably not your average skill rogue, but does good damage and control against foes that are affected by nonlethal damage.
prototype00
Edit: Though I realize now that you were looking for something simple, and perhaps with all the interactions, this build isn't exactly that. Apologies.
Build a high str rogue. I've played a very good rogues whose Str was higher than his Dex. This way you can claw back the Weapon finesse feat and put into something useful or fun- I like Skill Focus Stealth and Weapon Focus personally, Quick Draw is another good option.
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Fetchling Ninja dual-wielding wazikashis. They are somewhat broken based on what I have witnessed. Great at stealth and blending in (disguise self and 50% miss chance in dim light. Shadow walk at later levels) Chances of crit are high with two attacks 18-20 threat range, and 15-20 with keen or improve critical. I also like the use sleight of hand often, and utilizing disguise self and blending in with crowds can go a long way robbing folks.
Level range?
The dervish dancer feat is about as good as it gets for low level rogues afaik
We are starting at 2nd level. She will be playing a tifling with high dex and int with an interest in trapfinding/disabling, so I am looking for arhetypes that either grant those or retain them from the rogue. Dervish dance is fairly good, but it is still a lot less damage then out fighter, paladin, or melee druid will be dealing, so not a full solution.
While possibly mechanically superior the high strength concepts wouldn't really fly. She (like me) gets a character in her head and then decides how best to create that character, so changeing the race or something like that wouldn't really fly.
@arioreo Thanks for pointing out scout, that might well be what is needed at 4th level onwards!
A rogue that can't sneak attack isn't going to deal competitive damage to other classes, especially at low levels when Strength-based melee classes dominate. It's hard to beat the fighter swinging at a +6 for 2d6+11 at 2nd level. That's pretty much how it is.
From a raw damage perspective, ninja > rogue. Ninjas also get more abilities to allow them sneak attack.
You could go the Dervish Dance route. Talk the GM into allowing it to apply to a rapier for more rogue-appropriate thematic approach. It could be done by 2nd level if the Combat Trick rogue talent was used. It also doesn't really require any archetypes to work. A 2nd level rogue with an 18 Dex using Dervish Dance with a rapier would be hitting at a +5 for 1d6+4. Not amazing, but not terrible. High Dex also means she could still use a shortbow or throw daggers for some more versatility.
Alternately, Two-Weapon Fighting is a staple of rogues for those situations when you can get sneak attack. The pros are the fact that you get to add sneak attack on every hit, the cons being the TWF penalties can be rough on the already accuracy-challenged rogue and the fact you lose out when you can't full attack.
A druid wildshapes almost perpetually.
4th level: 4 hours
5th level: 5 hours
6th level: 6 hours x2= 12 hours (typical adventuring day)
8th level= 8 hours x 3= 24 hours. Good bye human hello velociraptor.
We are starting at 2nd level. She will be playing a tifling with high dex and int with an interest in trapfinding/disabling, so I am looking for arhetypes that either grant those or retain them from the rogue. Dervish dance is fairly good, but it is still a lot less damage then out fighter, paladin, or melee druid will be dealing, so not a full solution.You are looking at things wrong. A fighter should be doing more damage, that's all they have. A rogue has a lot of additional things to bring to the party (skills forinstance). If they did as much damage, the fighter would be obsolete.
Furthermore, the paladin's and melee druid's high damage output is limited by their number of smites and (I assume) number of wild shapes. A rogue does it's thing without any limited resource. That's very different.
Comparing them just doesn't work. With dervish dance and the occasional sneak attack (even if just one per round), your damage will be good enough to be relevant. What you lack in damage can be made up by other stuff.
@arioreo Thanks for pointing out scout, that might well be what is needed at 4th level onwards!My pleasure.
You misunderstand, I don't expect the rogue to deal more damage without sneak attack, I'm worrying about the damage even being noticed... although now that I think about it, since the damage would be multiplied on a critical, this route would not be insignificant... really I just don't want her to feel completely useless when we are fighting something that can't be sneak attacked.
That should be far less of a problem than 3.5, when EVERYTHING was immune to sneak attack. I think the only thing you need to worry about are
- Aeons ,Elementals, Incorporeal (unless using a ghost touch attack), Oozes, Proteans (50% ignore) ,Swarms
Functionally, barbarians and rogues with uncanny dodge are almost impossible to sneak attack without bluffing them or immobilizing them.
Try it in actual play. You may find it's not bad.
Remember to use acrobatics to flank. There's no advantage in a 5ft step until much later, when multiple attacks are possible. Even then, I'll take one sneak attack over two regular most of the time.