Wounds, vigor, nonlethal damage and being knocked out - UC

[Lady of Dorkness]

So I'm having some trouble with what to do about nonlethal damage and how to knock people unconscious by using the new variant rule from Ultimate Combat called "Wounds and Vigor".

By the old rules: "When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered. You can only take a standard action or a move action in each round (in addition to free, immediate, and swift actions). You cease being staggered when your current hit points once again exceed your nonlethal damage.

When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless."

The Wounds and Vigor variant rule: "When a creature takes nonlethal damage, it takes that damage in vigor points only, even if the attack deals more damage than the creature has vigor points. If the creature has no vigor points (and no temporary vigor points), each time that creature takes damage from an attack that deals nonlethal damage, it takes either 1 wound point of damage, or a number of wound points in damage equal to the attack's critical hit modifier if the attack is a critical hit."

(both quotes taken from http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/)

[Aris Kosmopoulos]

Hello,
I am also using the rules considering Wound and vigor and I just entered the forum in order to find the answer in the above question!
Surprisingly no one has answered. Since I cannot offer any official answer I will just describe how I am ruling it in case it helps you in any way.

According to the standard rules you fall unconscious when non lethal damage exceed your current hit points. So IMHO it is not balanced to fall unconscious just when your vigor points become 0 since vigor points are less than the old HP. This would lead to an easier way of making someone falling unconscious.

The way I rule it is that someone also has an extra number of non-lethal hit points to loose until his wound threshold, until he falls unconscious. So for example lets say that you have:

10 Vigor points
20 Wound points
10 wound threshold
20 wound points minus 10 wound threshold => 10 Non-lethal HP

If someone hits you for 11 non-lethal damage you will loose all vigor points and 1 non-lethal hit point.

Balancing considerations:
a) The number of non-lethal HP you have are equal to your wound points minus your wound threshold. In the above example they are 10.
b) You fall unconscious when your Vigor points are 0 AND your non-lethal HP are 0.
c) non-lethal HP return in the same rate/way as Vigor
d) If you receive a critical while your Vigor points are 0 and you non-lethal HP above 0 then you also receive a number of wounds equal to the critical hit modifier. This is the only way to receive wound points by non-lethal damage.

Other example, you have
0 Vigor points
21 Wound points (because of toughness feat level 1)
10 wound threshold => (21 - 10 = 11) Non-lethal HP

Case:
a) You receive 11 non-lethal damage => you loose 11 non-lethal HP and you fall unconscious.
b) You receive 12 non-lethal damage => you loose 11 non-lethal HP and you fall unconscious no extra wound point is received.
c) You receive 10 non-lethal damage from a critical hit with x2 multiplier => you loose 10 non-lethal HP BUT you do NOT fall unconscious and you receive 2 wound points.
d) You receive 20 non-lethal damage from a critical hit with x2 multiplier => you loose 11 non-lethal HP and you fall unconscious and you receive 2 wound points.

At least this works for me, I hope it helps,
Best wishes!

[Aeshuura]

Wow, I am just considering using the Wounds/Vigor rules, and I was considering this as well. Thank you Aris. I think this will work nicely. I should have seen it, but instead I started thinking all kinds of convoluted Fort saves and what not!

Anyway, how has the wound/vigor system worked out for you guys? Do you still like it? Are you still using it? It seems to help out the PCs at lower levels, namely level 1 and 2, when they would only have a few hit points normally.

Well, again, thanks for bringing this point up.