Greetings!
Another rule question I have to discuss with you guys out there.
This time it's about the magus. He uses a weapon (let us say a scimitar) in his main hand. To be able to cast a spell as well with his full round actions then he must have one hand free.
I will paste in the description from the Magus:
Spell Combat (Ex)At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
So by reading that I acknowledge the following:
* You need a free hand to cast the spell
* The magus choose to cast if he want to use the weapon attacks or the spell first.
* He cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks
Reading this makes me come to the conclusion that a magus could choose to take the unarmed strike/Improved unarmed strike ability and then TWF feat to gain an offhand unarmed attack which won't interfere with the magus spell combat rules as long as he makes the offhand attack together with the other attacks. Since having unarmed hands = free hand and also to be noted that unarmed strike doesn't necessary mean a hand attack but can as well be a kick, knee, head etc which also leave a hand free.
Pasting in a section from the D&D 3.5 Official Main FAQ:
Can a monk (my own comment: or any character with the unarmed strike feat. However they will not be able to use flurry of blows) fight with two weapons? Can she combine a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her penalties on attack rolls?A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other
character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her
attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand
weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with
a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but
remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special
monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for twoweapon
fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.
So basically a Magus can strike with his Scimitar and then make an offhand unarmed strike and then finally following it up with a spell then. This would be extremely hard to fit in since it requires quite a few extra feats which already is a problem, but it should still be doable, right?
Best Regards!
/Thrilled
You answered your own question: "the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast." You can either cast or attack with your "off-hand," not both. Also, since Spell Combat is a full-round action, you cannot also take a full-attack action for fighting with two weapons.
Note that the rules for fighting with two weapons are pretty straightforward: you can only attack with one "off-hand weapon" (be it armor spikes, one end of a double weapon, shield bash, unarmed strike, etc.). Monks and the flurry rules are a specific exception in 3.5 (and flurries do not stack with Two-Weapon Fighting in Pathfinder).
You answered your own question: "the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast." You can either cast or attack with your "off-hand," not both. Also, since Spell Combat is a full-round action, you cannot also take a full-attack action for fighting with two weapons.
Note that the rules for fighting with two weapons are pretty straightforward: you can only attack with one "off-hand weapon" (be it armor spikes, one end of a double weapon, shield bash, unarmed strike, etc.). Monks and the flurry rules are a specific exception in 3.5 (and flurries do not stack with Two-Weapon Fighting in Pathfinder).
Thanks for the explaination...
However can you give me a link to official words that flurry doesn't stack with TWF in pathfinder? Been looking like a madman and I have not found anything about that.
Also it could still be worth to have TWF and unarmed since when you choose not to cast a spell with the offhand then you can instead get extra offhand attacks. Still it would cost you tons of feats, but it is plausible ;)
/Thrilled
However can you give me a link to official words that flurry doesn't stack with TWF in pathfinder? Been looking like a madman and I have not found anything about that.
Flurry of blows no longer grants extra attacks- instead, it grants the feats Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting when performing a flurry. It can't stack with the TWF chain because it is the TWF chain.
However can you give me a link to official words that flurry doesn't stack with TWF in pathfinder? Been looking like a madman and I have not found anything about that.
Core Rulebook pg. 57: "Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon... as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat... At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon fighting... At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting..." (emphasis mine)
Also it could still be worth to have TWF and unarmed since when you choose not to cast a spell with the offhand then you can instead get extra offhand attacks. Still it would cost you tons of feats, but it is plausible ;)
It's an option, sure. The cost isn't so much in feats (two to four out of ten or eleven) as in Dex, depending on how you allocate ability scores.
I've been working on a magus (hexcrafter, staff magus) with Improved Unarmed Strike. The main constraint I've been running into is fitting in everything else I want out of the character using 15-Point Buy (i.e., Eldritch Heritage for arcane bond with the character's signature staff).
However can you give me a link to official words that flurry doesn't stack with TWF in pathfinder? Been looking like a madman and I have not found anything about that.Core Rulebook pg. 57: "Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon... as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat... At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon fighting... At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting..." (emphasis mine)
Also it could still be worth to have TWF and unarmed since when you choose not to cast a spell with the offhand then you can instead get extra offhand attacks. Still it would cost you tons of feats, but it is plausible ;)It's an option, sure. The cost isn't so much in feats (two to four out of ten or eleven) as in Dex, depending on how you allocate ability scores.
I've been working on a magus (hexcrafter, staff magus) with Improved Unarmed Strike. The main constraint I've been running into is fitting in everything else I want out of the character using 15-Point Buy (i.e., Eldritch Heritage for arcane bond with the character's signature staff).
Sean + Dragonchess: Thanks a ton for making it so much more clear regarding flurry+twf :)
Dragonchess: Since you seem to be an experienced player and especially diving into the Magus. Would you mind give me more details about "must have" feats for a magus?
Thanks in advance!
/Thrilled
Dragonchess: Since you seem to be an experienced player and especially diving into the Magus. Would you mind give me more details about "must have" feats for a magus?
Oh, I wouldn't say "especially diving into the magus." I just enjoy trying to take a concept (in this case a "supernatural martial artist" with more emphasis on the supernatural than martial artist; i.e., a "qinggong monk" based on spellcasting rather than ki) and translate it into game mechanics.
As far as "must have" feats for a magus, it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Improved Initiative is high on the list for any character. Quicken Spell is almost always worthwhile for a caster at higher levels. Intensified Spell is a good choice to gain extra utility from burning hands, shocking grasp, and other low-level spells with damage per level caps. If you wish to concentrate primarily on melee damage, then Dervish Dance, Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, and possibly Improved Critical (Scimitar) will be important for use with the Spellstrike magus ability (assuming a high Dex; if high Str, then Dervish Dance and Weapon Finesse are not needed); Cleave and Cleaving Finish may also be useful. For a hexcrafter, Accursed Hex is worth looking at (and so is Hex Strike if Improved Unarmed Strike is also taken). If the magus takes the Familiar arcana, then Evolved Familiar (as long as Cha is 13+) and Improved Familiar should be strongly considered.
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How that works in this case?
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
You answered your own question: "the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast." You can either cast or attack with your "off-hand," not both. Also, since Spell Combat is a full-round action, you cannot also take a full-attack action for fighting with two weapons.
Note that the rules for fighting with two weapons are pretty straightforward: you can only attack with one "off-hand weapon" (be it armor spikes, one end of a double weapon, shield bash, unarmed strike, etc.). Monks and the flurry rules are a specific exception in 3.5 (and flurries do not stack with Two-Weapon Fighting in Pathfinder).
Where in the rules for TWF does it say the TWF is its own special full attack action? I don't see that anywhere. All it does is add 1-3 extra attacks to your limit.
From Two-weapon fighting under the special attatks section CRB:If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
the design team recently ruled that you cannot 2 weapon fight with a 2-hander and armor spikes (even though the spikes don't require a free hand to use) because your extra attacks are limited by the number of hands you have available regardless of what limb you would be attacking with (and specifically stated, in a discussion about spiked gauntlets, that even if you let go with one hand it doesn't work because that hand has already been used up for attacking). for that reason you could not combine spellstrike/spell combat with unarmed off-hand attacks: your hand will either be 'used up' on casting or on hitting (even though you could technically be hitting with a foot/head/etc). with the appropriate feats you could fight like a regular magus one round and then 2wf with unarmed strikes as offhand weapon the next if you don't want to waste a spell or whatever. or with 2 levels of alchemist and the vestigal arm discovery you could get a 3 limb which opens up the option of "multi-weapon fighting" (instead of 2wf)... but that will likely generate some headaches- and might just result in your GM swatting you upside the head.
@morius- if you make a spellstrike/spell combat attack first then make your normal attacks, if you miss the initial attack the charge remains until one of your regular attacks hits and it takes effect normally; if you use SS/SC for your last attack and miss the charge remains normally until you discharge it- usually by successfully attacking (either with an AoO, or in your attacks the following run); if you use SS/SC while you're still holding a charge the original charge is lost and the new one follows the standard rules.
edit: monks can flurry with a single weapon (only one of their hands), so technically RAW might be able to combine a flurry with SS/SC... you'd have to stack the penalties, i'm sure its not RAI, and GMs might disallow it because both abilities say they work like 2wf (but i mention it for the sake of thoroughness)