I'm putting my Ptolus campaign to rest in a few weeks and I've made all Player's Guides available to my players. They've narrowed their immediate preferences down to four, and now they ask me for my preference. But I love 'em all! So what can you tell me and why?
The nominated Adventure Paths are:
Serpent's Skull
Kingmaker
Jade Regent
Legacy of Fire
Which would YOU choose? Oh, we're all in our 40s, have played D&D for a minimum of 20 years and are switching over to Pathfinder now.
I would go with Legacy of Fire, personally, but if your group likes more free-form campaigns they might prefer Kingmaker.
I don't know anything about Jade Regent, so I can't really comment on it.
If people are cool with cultures outside europe in their fantasy I would say go with Jade Regent. It starts off in a fairly standard (and familiar if you've been around a while) setting, and takes you to a couple exotic locals.
Serpent Skull is good too, though some people here complain about it (course there is nothing in existance that someone doesn't complain about). Gives you a lot of action and exploration and plenty of roleplaying opportunities as well.
I'm not familiar enough with Kingmaker to have an opinion, and nearly so with Legacy of Fire, though I will say that as much as I personally like the middle east themes, it looks to me like it might not go over well with some groups as it is very focused on those themes.
I would not recommend running any AP until you have all six parts in hand (got burned that way twice myself--you can't foreshadow properly just based on the one-paragraph summaries). So I'd save Jade Regent for later.
Kingmaker and Legacy of Fire are polar opposites. Kingmaker needs a group that knows what it wants to do and proactively goes out and does it. A group with that temperament will probably feel railroaded by Legacy. Conversely, a group that is happy to follow along with a railroad as long as it's scenic and exciting will likely prefer Legacy and find Kingmaker dull.
Legacy is probably easier to run. Kingmaker takes a lot of fleshing out, and you have to worry about the kingdom-building and mass combat mechanics, both of which are arguably broken. But many groups hit the later parts of the Legacy railroad and really resent them. You might look specifically at the transitions among modules 3-6 and think about how your group might react to them. (We did that and decided it was not for us.)
I can't speak to Serpent's Skull--we will probably do it after Council of Thieves, so I haven't read any of it.
Thank you very much for your replies. I sent the following one-sentence description to my players. We'll see what they say:
You'll get the most freedom in Kingmaker
You'll get a Middle Eastern experience with a cool story and some awesome locations in Legacy of Fire
You'll get the most immediate feeling of being in an nice action movie with Serpent's Skull
You'll get the most cultural bang for your buck in Jade Regent.
I can't wait to see what they say.
For a group of folks playing over 20 years, go Kingmaker.
It has Hex exploration (making it easy to customize and add stuff in) like the good old AD&D days of yesteryear. Also, it's epic in scope between founding a Kingdom and a really cool BBEG. Finally, you can drop the kingdom building and/or mass combat rules if you dont like them and just describe it in the background, though you may have to add stuff into volume #5 to make up some XP.
Other than that, I would echo the Carrion Crown AP recommendation. Especially if you old hats enjoyed Ravenloft of yore and like a gothic horror type of campaign.
Btw, I'm in my 40s too.
Legacy of Fire is great with an arabian nights flavor.
Serpent Skull starts great (1-3), but ends "meh" (4-6) imho. It also has a bazillion NPCs to run with all these factions around, and I imagine #3 will get repetitive combat-wise as you clear the city.
First two Jade Regent are unbelievably awesome. Hope it keeps it's momentum.
Of those options:
Legacy of Fire, for it's great Arabian feel. The great locations are also a huge plus. (But you have to like Arabian feel, IMO.)
Honorable Mention:
Kingmaker. A fairly unique experience (for non-old-schoolers, at least), with a lot of support. Loads of freedom for those who like that sort of thing, as well as loads of freedom for the DM to add whatever he/she wants to add.
To somewhat reiterate:
Legacy of Fire is amazing. (Also note that LoF plays somewhat "quick" compared to other APs; I would budget just over a year, personally.)
Kingmaker is also great, but for the exact opposite reason. (Also note that KM plays fairly "slow" compared to other APs; I would budget 3 years, personally.)
Jade Regent isn't out yet. Mary Yamato speaks wisdom: don't run APs that aren't out.
And Serpent's Skull is really, really bad. Don't do it. (See my review if curious.)
Siobharek question?
Have you played Al-Qadim or Birthright?
Nope, so it will be a new experience in that regard.
HOWEVER, and this is in response to the many good points from Erik Freund, Sunderstone and Arnwyn, I worry that my players aren't proactive enough to go all exploring.
Erik, your Serpen't Skull review sends a cold shiver down my spine. I think I'm going to take a long hard look at it again, and then consider how to change it for my players.
Mary Yamato, your comments hit the mark. And I think my group in the long run will enjoy Legacy's story more. We'll see.
Thank you again, one and all! I will post here once my group has made up its mind. I suspect their decision will be to have me decide...
Kingmaker is huge fun. I don't recommend it for new players unless you have a player that enjoys detail management. Kingdom building and army management require a fair amount of paperwork. Might not be so fun for new players.
Serpent's Skull seems like it would be fun for new players. Allows you to explore many of the elements that make D&D great without focusing too heavily on one area too much.
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To somewhat reiterate:
Legacy of Fire is amazing. (Also note that LoF plays somewhat "quick" compared to other APs; I would budget just over a year, personally.)
Kingmaker is also great, but for the exact opposite reason. (Also note that KM plays fairly "slow" compared to other APs; I would budget 3 years, personally.)
Jade Regent isn't out yet. Mary Yamato speaks wisdom: don't run APs that aren't out.
And Serpent's Skull is really, really bad. Don't do it. (See my review if curious.)
Heh. We did LoF in 6 months and Kingmaker in 9.
Of the 4 you have chosen I would say go with Legacy of Fire, It's my favourite AP and really evokes the arabian style setting. Kingmaker is cool too but it needs a lot of work. Serpent's Skull I'm running through at the moment. It's OK but I have not yet got to book 3 which is where the problems start.
I would reiterate the idea of not starting an AP until it is fully released. This allows you to adjust the campaign as a whole and avoid problems later on.
One other tip if you are running Kingmaker or Serpent's Skull is to get the map packs. I laminated each map and stuck it on the wall where we play. It really enhanced the experience IMHO and allowed me to use OHP pens to show the entent of the player's explorations. Avoid this for LoF though, the map pack here is a waste of money as it's just reprints of the maps from the AP itself.
My final tip is once you have chosen your AP go to that AP's thread on this board and start reading. This is a great way to find fan made support materials as well as identifying issues that crop up in the campaign and potential solutions that people have suggested. It's also useful to read the obituary thread for an AP you are running. As well as being a good read this thread will help you identify potentially deadly encounters and plan accordingly.
I would reiterate the idea of not starting an AP until it is fully released. This allows you to adjust the campaign as a whole and avoid problems later on.
Along with Mary Yamato, Erik Freund, and FallofCamelot, I'm going to quote and state this as well. It really is best to wait until you have all the volumes of an AP before starting.
This can't be said enough, AFAIC.
Along with Mary Yamato, Erik Freund, and FallofCamelot, I'm going to quote and state this as well. It really is best to wait until you have all the volumes of an AP before starting.
This can't be said enough, AFAIC.
I agree, and that's why it right now looks to be Kingmaker. One of my players has made it very clear that a Middle Eastern theme isn't for him, so that's out. On the other hand, he'd really like to get his feet wet with kingdom-building, etc., so that sounds fun. So it seems it's off to the Kingmaker fora to see if the rules are as broken as you say...
Not really broken, more like exploitable. I guess it will depend on your players. I dont like the Kingdom building rules because they are clunky and time consuming.
If I ever run Kingmaker (in RL or pbp), i'd skip the actual kingdom building rules and describe it more in the background.
THANK YOU
My players have decided. I used some of the comments here about Serpent's Skull to put that to bed, and I emphasized the requirements for proactive player participation (all alliterative - allright!) in Kingmaker, and that was the end result. Kingmaker it is.
Thank you all, once again.
Good Luck :)
Move to Brooklyn NY, so I can join the game. Kingmaker is my favorite AP so far. :)
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To be clear none of the AP's are bad but in best Orwellian tradition some are more equal than others.
If you are running Kingmaker I would also advise that you check out "The Book of the River Nations" which expands on the exploration and kingdom building stuff considerably.
You can find it here.
This is turning out to be quite the well-planned campaign. I've bought the relevant PDF's, bought a print copy of The River Kingdoms and I'm still waiting for the Map Folio.
The group has embraced the concept, so for now we're looking at perhaps a bunch of Brevoy/Rostland veterans (yes, Middle Age) who, aided by a couple of young 'uns, are to settle the area.
Possile characters are:
- A Cavalier of the Blue Rose
- An Evoker
- A cleric or paladin of Abadar
- A fighter-type
- And either a bard (arcane duelist), a ranger/cleric (Erastil) or an Inquisitor (Heretic)/cleric
Seems pretty cool, and I can't wait for the next session in three weeks.