From what I can tell, bucklers are NOT in your off-hand, there for, you could use Dervish Dance, and lose nothing. Seeing how I remember many Arabian nights like movies, I recall many Scimitar users having buckler like shields.
Does Weapon Finesse still get a -1 from armor penalty with a buckler? I guess I could always get a Mithral Buckler. I wasn't ever quite clear on that with bucklers.
Can I actually use Dervish Dancer with a buckler? It says off-hand, but a buckler is not in your off-hand. My GM claims buckler always takes up the off-hand slot, even if you where two weapon fighting, which seems a bit extreme.
How does Buckler Mastery work now? I am not to sure how it works, I had assumed it simply means you don't get a -1 attack bonus when using a buckler with TWF, but I think it might imply that you add light shield damage when "shield bashing" with your off hand, while you add your off hand weapon. Would that mean with Buckler mastery you could effectively use Two weapon fighintg with a buckler as your off hand weapon while still getting Dervish Dance benefits? "Only for your main hand ofcourse." Not that I would actually try this. Unless I was anything but a rogue. "Congrats, you do 1d3 extra damage per turn at the cost of -2 and a feat."
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Benefit: You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
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Ah, I forgot to mention. A shield is always considered to be in the 'shield arm', though in the case of a buckler you can use an off hand weapon with the shield arm with that -1 penalty. Even a weapon like the buckler-gun is considered an off-hand weapon, probably because of the buckler.
Benefit: You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
Prerequisite: Shield ProficiencyBenefit: You can perform a shield bash with a buckler. When wielding a weapon in the same hand as your buckler, you may elect to either ignore the −1 atack penalty or gain a +1 shield bonus to AC.
Special: A buckler counts as a light weapon and has the same weapon profile as a light shield.
Again though, that is a weird worded sounding feat.
Benefit: You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.
This would mean your off hands are free to do what ever they want at a -1. Again though, as far as balance goes, to pull this off you would need a few feats, and you wouldn't really get a whole lot out of it. "Unless you where a rogue."
That bucklergun sounds fun :p .
I just notice that buckler mastery isn't an official feat, so never mind, that feat is useless. :p
However, the other question still remains. Your off-hand is completely free while using a buckler. There is literally nothing stopping it.
I personally don't see how you can get too much imbalance out of it, so I don't see why it would be illegal.
Also, does weapon finesse apply for bucklers as well? Probably, but I just want to make sure.
When the Dervish Dance feat says "a shield in your off hand", I think it's pushing it to not count a buckler. You're kind of straining at the word "in", when probably they mean "with".
But was that not always the advantage of using a buckler? To have a completely free hand?
Also consider that with a light or heavy shield you can still hold things in your shield hand. To me this would mean that your buckler arm is still completely free to do what it wants. Since officially there is no way you can make an extra attack with the shield hand without losing this feat, I personally don't see how this can get out of hand.
"Someone can now have a +10 buckler on their character?" Maybe, but otherwise you would have redirected you wealth in some other way. Again though, that is why I ask. :p
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I'd like to point out one more time that the shield arm- the arm that holds the shield- is considered the off hand. So if you wield the scimitar in the shield arm, you'll have nothing on your main hand and a shield and scimitar in the off hand. You'll have a free MAIN hand. Of course, we could ignore the definition of the shield arm and say that if there is ONE hand free, the dervish dance works, but the rules seem fairly clear about the intent to only wield a scimitar.
If you're going for style (which it seems you are), then you could say that the scimitar has a buckler-like hand guard, it just confers no in game value, which is better than actually assuming you can use the buckler in the main hand and taking that -1. True, you'd be missing out on that +3 ac with a +2 buckler when you don't attack- then a quickdraw shield is probably the one you want if the bonus to AC is intended at-range. Readying or dropping a shield doesn't provoke an attack.
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I'd like to point out one more time that the shield arm- the arm that holds the shield- is considered the off hand. So if you wield the scimitar in the shield arm, you'll have nothing on your main hand and a shield and scimitar in the off hand. You'll have a free MAIN hand. Of course, we could ignore the definition of the shield arm and say that if there is ONE hand free, the dervish dance works, but the rules seem fairly clear about the intent to only wield a scimitar.
If you're going for style (which it seems you are), then you could say that the scimitar has a buckler-like hand guard, it just confers no in game value, which is better than actually assuming you can use the buckler in the main hand and taking that -1. True, you'd be missing out on that +3 ac with a +2 buckler when you don't attack- then a quickdraw shield is probably the one you want if the bonus to AC is intended at-range. Readying or dropping a shield doesn't provoke an attack.
Incorrect. The line about shields being in the off-hand has been errata'd out (it was only there to describe the most common usage). A player who is not attacking on their turn has neither a main nor an off-hand. A player who is attacking on their turn must choose one weapon to be the "main hand" and all others are the "off hand". This is true even if the "main hand" or "off hand" weapon is not in a hand (the term "hand" is a hold-over all the way from 3rd ed where you DID have to pick right/left handed).
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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But was that not always the advantage of using a buckler? To have a completely free hand?
That doesn't make it impossible for an individual feat to disallow it. It's not like if we say Thing X doesn't work, then somehow we're categorically disallowing all the perks of the buckler.
For instance, you can use a MW buckler nonproficiently and while using Weapon Finesse because there's no ACP to worry about. You can switch between melee weapons and bows without having to unequip it first. You can decide to take the -1 to hit in exchange for 2-handing your one-handed weapon for some extra damage if you want. You can cast spells with somatic components with your buckler arm. The list goes on.
None of that requires that we have to interpret Dervish Dance in a certain way.
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But was that not always the advantage of using a buckler? To have a completely free hand?That doesn't make it impossible for an individual feat to disallow it. It's not like if we say Thing X doesn't work, then somehow we're categorically disallowing all the perks of the buckler.
For instance, you can use a MW buckler nonproficiently and while using Weapon Finesse because there's no ACP to worry about. You can switch between melee weapons and bows without having to unequip it first. You can decide to take the -1 to hit in exchange for 2-handing your one-handed weapon for some extra damage if you want. You can cast spells with somatic components with your buckler arm. The list goes on.
None of that requires that we have to interpret Dervish Dance in a certain way.
I agree with pretty much all of the above.
And to the OP: The Dervish Dance feat uses "no shields or extra weapons" as a balancing point. To try and bypass that is essentially cheese in my book.
But was that not always the advantage of using a buckler? To have a completely free hand?That doesn't make it impossible for an individual feat to disallow it. It's not like if we say Thing X doesn't work, then somehow we're categorically disallowing all the perks of the buckler.
For instance, you can use a MW buckler nonproficiently and while using Weapon Finesse because there's no ACP to worry about. You can switch between melee weapons and bows without having to unequip it first. You can decide to take the -1 to hit in exchange for 2-handing your one-handed weapon for some extra damage if you want. You can cast spells with somatic components with your buckler arm. The list goes on.
None of that requires that we have to interpret Dervish Dance in a certain way.
I agree with pretty much all of the above.
And to the OP: The Dervish Dance feat uses "no shields or extra weapons" as a balancing point. To try and bypass that is essentially cheese in my book.
Fair enough, the feat needs to be worded better though, since it specifically says off hand when it could instead of saying
" You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."
Could have said " You cannot use this feat if you are using a shield or carrying a weapon in your off hand."
That seems to simple of a fix that it makes me think they may have wanted people to use bucklers. I would still allow it, since the gold would simply go elsewhere.