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Animal companions get multiattack if they have the requisite 3 natural attacks at a certain point.
but how does that work with animals that don't have secondary natural attacks?
like the eagle? and the leopard?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/eagle.html#_eagle
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/cat.html#_cat-leopard
the only animal in the core book listed with a secondary natural attack is the horse/pony.
RAW these animals don't gain any benefit from having the mulitattack feat, but they don't satisfy the condition in the druid multiattack text to qualify for getting another attack with one of their primary natural attacks at -5.
Greetings, fellow traveller.
The multiattack feat an animal companion benefits from states:
An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.
So, here e. g. the wolf would benefit with its single bite attack. Apart from that - you are correct, this benefit is not that beneficial at all. I couldn't find anything in the FAQ either.
Ruyan.
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The druid multiattack ability is only good with some the possible normal AC's:
From the Univeral Monster Rules chart on natural attacks, only the following are not primary:
hoof, tentacle, wing, pincers, tail slap, and "other"
And those only count as secondary if there is another attack.
So if we look at the normal list of animal companions out of the core book (and PRD) we end up with the folloiwng:
Ape = 2 claws/bite (no secondary)
Badger = Bite/2 claws (no secondary)
Bear = Bite/ 2claws (no secondary)
Bird = bite/ 2 talons (no secondary)
* Boar = gore (Gets the second gore @ -5 with the multiattack)
* camel = bite (gets a second bite @ -5 with the multiattack)
cat, big = bite/ 2 claws (no secondary)
cat, small = bite/ 2 claws (no secondary)
* Crocodile = bite (gets a second bite @ -5 with the multiattack)
Dinosaur = 2 talons/bite (no secondary)
* dog = bite (gets a second bite @ -5 with the multiattack)
* horse = bite/ 2 hooves (has a secondary!)
pony = 2 hooves (because it does not have a primary, this counts as a primary)
* Shark = bite (gets a second bite @ -5 with the multiattack)
* snake, constrictor = bite (gets a second bite @ -5 with the multiattack)
* snake, viper = bite (gets a second bite @ -5 with the multiattack)
* wolf = bite (gets a second bite @ -5 with the multiattack)
the * marks the animals that make use out of that ability in one way or another.
I wonder if that was intentional not to give the others any benefit from that ability.
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The druid multiattack ability is only good with some the possible normal AC's:
From the Univeral Monster Rules chart on natural attacks, only the following are not primary:
hoof, tentacle, wing, pincers, tail slap, and "other"And those only count as secondary if there is another attack.
So if we look at the normal list of animal companions out of the core book (and PRD) we end up with the folloiwng:
Ape = 2 claws/bite (no secondary)
Badger = Bite/2 claws (no secondary)
Bear = Bite/ 2claws (no secondary)
Bird = bite/ 2 talons (no secondary)
* Boar = gore (Gets the second gore @ -5 with the multiattack)
* camel = bite (gets a second bite @ -5 with the multiattack)
cat, big = bite/ 2 claws (no secondary)
cat, small = bite/ 2 claws (no secondary)
* Crocodile = bite (gets a second bite @ -5 with the multiattack)
Dinosaur = 2 talons/bite (no secondary)
* dog = bite (gets a second bite @ -5 with the multiattack)
* horse = bite/ 2 hooves (has a secondary!)
pony = 2 hooves (because it does not have a primary, this counts as a primary)
* Shark = bite (gets a second bite @ -5 with the multiattack)
* snake, constrictor = bite (gets a second bite @ -5 with the multiattack)
* snake, viper = bite (gets a second bite @ -5 with the multiattack)
* wolf = bite (gets a second bite @ -5 with the multiattack)the * marks the animals that make use out of that ability in one way or another.
I wonder if that was intentional not to give the others any benefit from that ability.
You're reading it wrong.
It's designed purely to offset the penalty of any natural attack that is currently being flagged as secondary. Like when you are mixing manufactured weapons and natural weapons, or when they have a mixture of secondary attacks.Any animal companion that doesn't have 3 natural attacks gets an additional attack every full attack action.
If they do have 3 or more natural attacks any of the secondary attacks have the penalty reduced.
If they do have 3 or more natural attacks but none are secondary then they get no benefit from this feat.
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You're reading it wrong.
It's designed purely to offset the penalty of any natural attack that is currently being flagged as secondary. Like when you are mixing manufactured weapons and natural weapons, or when they have a mixture of secondary attacks.Any animal companion that doesn't have 3 natural attacks gets an additional attack every full attack action.
If they do have 3 or more natural attacks any of the secondary attacks have the penalty reduced.
If they do have 3 or more natural attacks but none are secondary then they get no benefit from this feat.
I am not reading it wrong. The animals that I list above that do not have the * do not gain any benefit from the multiattack feat, this is 8 out of 17 animal companions listed in the core book. And the animals that only have one attack benefit from it as per listed and bolded below:
Multiattack: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty.
They were struggling with the natural attack rules right up to the last minute. Most likely it was overlooked that the secondary attack mechanic was going to be downgraded by making most creatures attacks all primary.
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You're reading it wrong.
It's designed purely to offset the penalty of any natural attack that is currently being flagged as secondary. Like when you are mixing manufactured weapons and natural weapons, or when they have a mixture of secondary attacks.Any animal companion that doesn't have 3 natural attacks gets an additional attack every full attack action.
If they do have 3 or more natural attacks any of the secondary attacks have the penalty reduced.
If they do have 3 or more natural attacks but none are secondary then they get no benefit from this feat.
I am not reading it wrong. The animals that I list above that do not have the * do not gain any benefit from the multiattack feat, this is 8 out of 17 animal companions listed in the core book. And the animals that only have one attack benefit from it as per listed and bolded below:
Multiattack: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty.
you are reading it wrong because you are quoting just the description from the Core rulebook which has been supplanted by the new version in the Beastiary. Use those rulings for all natural attack questions.
This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.
Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.
Benefit: The creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5 penalty.
With those rules, yes several of the animal companions don't get much if anything out of this feat. This feat is more for the ones who don't have multiple attack options or are routinely going to be using manufactured weapons (armor spikes, glabrezu beards, polymorphed into humanoid forms, etc).
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you are reading it wrong because you are quoting just the description from the Core rulebook which has been supplanted by the new version in the Beastiary. Use those rulings for all natural attack questions.With those rules, yes several of the animal companions don't get much if anything out of this feat. This feat is more for the ones who don't have multiple attack options or are routinely going to...
This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.
Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.
Benefit: The creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5 penalty.
So, how does it effect differently with the mobs that I have above, for example: (i use these four since they show the basics)
Ape = 2 claws/bite
Boar = gore
horse = bite/ 2 hooves
pony = 2 hooves
My reading would have the Ape not getting any benefit, the boar getting an extra gore with a -5 to hit, the horse gaining the benefit of being able to use it's hooves at a -2 to hit instead of a -5, and the pony gaining no benefit. Please tell me how I am wrong.
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you are reading it wrong because you are quoting just the description from the Core rulebook which has been supplanted by the new version in the Beastiary. Use those rulings for all natural attack questions.With those rules, yes several of the animal companions don't get much if anything out of this feat. This feat is more for the ones who don't have multiple attack options or are routinely going to...
This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.
Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.
Benefit: The creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5 penalty.So, how does it effect differently with the mobs that I have above, for example: (i use these four since they show the basics)
Ape = 2 claws/bite
Boar = gore
horse = bite/ 2 hooves
pony = 2 hooves
My reading would have the Ape not getting any benefit, the boar getting an extra gore with a -5 to hit, the horse gaining the benefit of being able to use it's hooves at a -2 to hit instead of a -5, and the pony gaining no benefit. Please tell me how I am wrong.
Ok.
The ape gets nothing normally (unless he picks up a club/axe/etc in which case his natural attacks are just at -2) and the rest get an extra attack per round and the horse (only) would have it's penalty to hit lowered to a -2.The animal companion rules work WITH multi-attack by granting any companion with LESS THAN 3 natural attacks an extra attack then the multi-attack feat itself would lower any penalty they have with secondary attacks to a -2.
You get BOTH options not just one.
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Ok.
The ape gets nothing normally (unless he picks up a club/axe/etc in which case his natural attacks are just at -2) and the rest get an extra attack per round and the horse (only) would have it's penalty to hit lowered to a -2.The animal companion rules work WITH multi-attack by granting any companion with LESS THAN 3 natural attacks an extra attack then the multi-attack feat itself would lower any penalty they have with secondary attacks to a -2.
You get BOTH options not just one.
but per the core rule book, for the druid animal companion special ability, if they have 3 or more natural attacks, then they only get the benefit for multiattack (the -3 for secondary attacks). They do not get both. It is instead and not in addition.
per the PRD
Multiattack: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty.
The boar and the pony are the only two out of my shortened list that do not have the required 3 or more natural attacks, thus they would get the additional attack per full attack action. The Ape and the horse both have 3 or more, thus they only get the normal benefits of multiattack, which (unless you give the ape a weapon) would not benefit the ape in the slightest. Since the horse only has the secondary natural attack to have the minus on.
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Ok.
The ape gets nothing normally (unless he picks up a club/axe/etc in which case his natural attacks are just at -2) and the rest get an extra attack per round and the horse (only) would have it's penalty to hit lowered to a -2.The animal companion rules work WITH multi-attack by granting any companion with LESS THAN 3 natural attacks an extra attack then the multi-attack feat itself would lower any penalty they have with secondary attacks to a -2.
You get BOTH options not just one.but per the core rule book, for the druid animal companion special ability, if they have 3 or more natural attacks, then they only get the benefit for multiattack (the -3 for secondary attacks). They do not get both. It is instead and not in addition.
per the PRD
Multiattack: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty.The boar and the pony are the only two out of my shortened list that do not have the required 3 or more natural attacks, thus they would get the additional attack per full attack action. The Ape and the horse both have 3 or more, thus they only get the normal benefits of multiattack, which (unless you give the ape a weapon) would not benefit the ape in the slightest. Since the horse only has the secondary natural attack to have the minus on.
I always forget horses have a bite but that reinforces my point. The ape and the horse get a regular multi attack so now they can use manufactured weapons as well as natural attacks. the pny and boar get an extra attack since using manufactured weapons would preclude them from ever using their natural attacks anyway.
(armor Spikes are nasty with beast strength and speed behind them).|
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and an eagle or tiger with three attacks already gets no benefit, and cannot mix its attacks with manufactured weapons like an ape (arguably, and with spending feats)
I agree with BNW, it looks like an oversight with changes to primary/secondary natural attacks for creatures. RAI, its probably meant to give any animal without a secondary natural attack an attack at -5, or if they have a secondary natural attack/more than three attacks, reduce the penalty to -2. so an eagle/cat/ape would get an additional attack at -5. a boar would get an additional attack at -5. horses would get their bite, and hooves and an additional attack at -5 ( which, by the time they get multiattack, are primary attacks anyway ). RAI, not RAW currently =P
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and an eagle or tiger with three attacks already gets no benefit, and cannot mix its attacks with manufactured weapons like an ape (arguably, and with spending feats)
I agree with BNW, it looks like an oversight with changes to primary/secondary natural attacks for creatures. RAI, its probably meant to give any animal without a secondary natural attack an attack at -5, or if they have a secondary natural attack/more than three attacks, reduce the penalty to -2. so an eagle/cat/ape would get an additional attack at -5. a boar would get an additional attack at -5. horses would get their bite, and hooves and an additional attack at -5 ( which, by the time they get multiattack, are primary attacks anyway ). RAI, not RAW currently =P
Well first every animal can be equipped and use manufactured weapons, it's called spikes on their armor. Dogs, horses and birds have been armored and equipped with cutting/stabbing weapons for millenia. Animal companions are just specifically better at it then most other animals.
Second I fail to see the issue, so several of them don't automatically get a benefit from this feat. It costs them nothing to get they lose nothing for having it, and at the level they get it they will more than likely be scraping for every DPR boost they can get so their masters will probably find a way to take advantage of this feat somehow.
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because its supposed to be a benefit. if you don't receive any extra attack from it, its not exactly a benefit is it?
And I'd like to see armored spikes work on a snake or eagle.
dog / bear i could see, a'la brotherhood of the wolf. but that's still a martial weapon proficiency, and armor proficiency ( 2 feats ) to get a secondary attack. otherwise if you're just throwing armored spikes on a chain shirt barding, you get a -2 AC penalty applied to attack rolls due to non-proficiency in the armor, and a -4 penalty for nonproficiency in the martial weapon. and a -5 for it being a secondary attack. unless you're treating it as the primary attack? in which case the cat/badger/horse's claws/hooves become secondary ?
because its supposed to be a benefit. if you don't receive any extra attack from it, its not exactly a benefit is it?
I agree with BigNorseWolf's assessment: It was carried over from 3.5, but then they changed the natural attack rules without updating the animal companion rules.
* horse = bite/ 2 hooves (has a secondary!)
Actually, I don't know a horse animal companion benefits either! My understanding is that the hoof attacks are only secondary because horses have the Docile quality, but a level 4 horse companion loses the Docile quality when it becomes Combat Trained.
Do Animal Companions get a second attack for having a +6 BAB?
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Do Animal Companions get a second attack for having a +6 BAB?
No. Natural attacks do not use the iterative attack rules so they never get an additional attack for having a BaB of +6 (or higher).
However with the latest dev post once any animal companion gets the multi-attack feat the DO get one additional attack each round with any natural attack they currently have.
This is the exact opposite of what the feat states but the devs have repeatedly stated that was their intent.
Do Animal Companions get a second attack for having a +6 BAB?No. Natural attacks do not use the iterative attack rules so they never get an additional attack for having a BaB of +6 (or higher).
However with the latest dev post once any animal companion gets the multi-attack feat the DO get one additional attack each round with any natural attack they currently have.
This is the exact opposite of what the feat states but the devs have repeatedly stated that was their intent.
Can you provide a link to one of those statements?
Something with secondary weapons gets multi attack.
Something without secondary weapons (even something like a velociraptor with 5 primaries) gets an extra attack.
That ruling seems very.. odd to me.