So how hard would it be for someone to mod the game to give it pathfinder statistics??
I just recently started playing it and it's a great game but it would be better if it was Pathfinder. Has anyone modded it and if so does anyone know where to get it??
I'd try Neverwinter Nights 2. NWN was D&D 3.0. NWN2 was 3.5 making it closer to PF. The game had the option for developing new modules, adding classes and so on. There were even persistent online worlds developed for both NWN and NWN2 iirc. Both games featured sp, coop and DM options. The level editors were tile based with the community for the games constantly adding more tiles, models, etc. It should be possible to bring NWN2 into close alignment with PF but some systems (like CMA / CMD) developed for PF just aren't there. Still if you want the closest analogue to a paper and pencil D&D / PF game in a computer game, NWN / NWN2 is it.
Check out Neverwinter Vault (part of IGN) for tons of material. Type Neverwinter Vault in Google (or any other search engine) and you should get a link.
As another long-time NWN player I concur with Sigil.
However, a number of "adapted" rule mods were made- I know of both a traveler mod and a d20 modern mod- so it might be possible to get something with the same feel as pathfinder even if it isn't 100% true to the rules. You can still create new classes and spells, for instance.
NWN2's toolset is not nearly as robust as NWN's. You can (in theory) create more modern-looking areas and characters, but it's buggy as heck in addition to a much steeper learning curve. It's a big part of the reason NWN2 never really caught on as a natural replacement/successor to NWN in the broader multiplayer community (well, that and the DM option was more poorly constructed, if I'm remembering correctly).
I'm horribly biased though- NWN DM'd multiplayer campaigns in college was my first introduction to P&P style D&D so I'm rather sentimental about the whole thing.
It's been a few years, but I used to play around with the NWN2 Toolset (won 3rd place in a contest once, although they never sent me my damn T-shirt) and used to be active in the NWN2 Community. (And for the record, I personally found NWN2's Toolset way easier to use and far more flexible than NWN1's--and I'm a freaking secretary, I barely know a thing about video game design or programming).
I do remember some modders talking about making a rules adaptation to make NWN2 work under the Pathfinder ruleset, but I don't think anything came of it. I just ran a search at the NWN2 Vault (where most modules and mods live) and the only thing I could find is somebody did a Golarion deities package (which might be an IP violation, actually).
To the best of my knowledge: I do know it would take a lot of work (and well beyond my meager capabilities; the stuff I'm good at with the toolset is area design and dialogue editing, which required little scripting) but it would be possible, at least to a degree. You'd have to edit a lot of .tlk files--which is tricky business--and do the following:
- Add the new class abilities for all the classes
- Implement schools and bloodlines -- that's a lot of description typing right there, let alone implementing the abilities, but it's doable.
- Change the skill system. I DON'T know if you could actually adjust it fully to Pathfinder (no ranksx4 at character creation but +3 to class skills). You'd have to make it not give you a penalty to cross-class skills--and adjust it to the once a class skill, always a class skill rule, and I have no idea how that would work. Some of that might be more hard coded into the game, I don't know.
- Change how the domains work and add domain powers, if possible. Adding new 3.5 style domains wouldn't be hard but changing them would be difficult.
- Change it so you get a feat every other level (hopefully that is not hard coded and just a quick variable change).
- Edit the feats (how power attack scales, etc. plus add new ones).
- Add the CMB/CMD mechanic. The basic math of that would not be too hard, probably--but making sure the maneuver attempts related to that worked properly would probably take a lot of testing.
I would say of all of those you could at least add most of the new class abilities. But that by itself wouldn't make it feel like Pathfinder. I'd say the most important changes would be the feats, skills, and CMB/CMD and the last two would probably be the hardest. Probably you'd never do something that looks exactly like Pathfinder but you might at least be able to implement some of the ideas from it.
You'd need the toolset, time, a good computer, and knowledge of C+ to do it well--plus taking the time of learning how to edit the .tlk files and make hakpaks. It would probably be best do it with a team of people--one or two people per different aspect to edit in. And this last is probably why the project never caught on--getting enough people to do it who not only had the time and knowledge to do so, but that communicated with each other and kept each other going. Not easy for a volunteer project.
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NWN 2 didn't even properly fully model 3.5 and changes to Pathfinder would go a lot deeper than a mod could reach.
Just make a new game.
Great. THANKS you guys. NOW I've got to make a set of two-to-four NWN (OC, SoU, and HotU; and 2, and MotB) APs. That's just great. Thanks. >:(
(Actually it really is kind of a cool idea!) :)
I personally found NWN2's Toolset way easier to use and far more flexible than NWN1's--and I'm a freaking secretary, I barely know a thing about video game design or programming).
Everyone's personal experience will vary, of course. However my own experience and that of pretty much everyone I knew in the NWN1 community who tried to make the switch was the opposite. *shrugs* Different strokes and all that.
Sorry you never got your t-shirt! That sucks.
It also kind of depends on what "makes" Pathfinder for you- if it can't feel like Pathfinder without changing stuff that is hardcoded (like some of the skill problems you describe) then no, it's not possible. But if what "makes it Pathfinder" to you is how the races are constructed, what abilities the classes receive and how they are portrayed, and the setting of the system- then I think that is entirely possible. It just won't have -exactly- the same rules.
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Actually, there is already a group modding NWN to Pathfinder (including changing the hardcoded stuff like skills and such). At least one of those plans to make it a full time hosted player world. I frequent the NWN Bioware Social forums and it's popped up a few times. They are looking for help too I'll add.
...actually there might be two (not sure if they are different groups or not). Check here:
...as for NWN 2 I say Booooo! Boooooo! It's clunky, laggy, and I had more issues with it than I care to count. I've never seen such annorexic elves in all my life.
Aleron--thanks. I thought I had seen something like that awhile ago, but I couldn't find it.
NWN2--when did you play it? Because on release it was buggy as all hell but got much, much better with patches. I ran it on a not-stellar computer and it ran pretty well (post patching, mind).
Obsidian's notorious for bugs, to be fair. And NWN2 suffered because Atari had them revamp the NWN engine rather than make their own from scratch (which would have taken too long--but would have resulted in a much better product, probably).
What Obsidian's project are worth it for is writing. The OC had some issues (you don't get to the real story until halfway through), but writing-wise, Mask of the Betrayer is one of the best fantasy RPGs I've played since Planescape Torment (and makes sense after all--same group of writers). I do NOT give that comparison lightly. If you've never played MotB and you have the NWN2 software, I highly, highly recommend giving it a shot--even if the UI isn't your favorite and it lags.
NWN2 certainly has its problems but I think gets a lot more flak than it actually deserves. Plus gamers don't like change. There's always going to be a loud, "they changed it, now it sucks" contingent who badmouth the game and gives it worse reviews than it deserves (I am NOT saying anyone here is like that). Like I said, it definitely has its problems--it is not an efficient engine and the camera controls are awful, for example--but there's it's also a very complicated piece of work that accomplishes a great deal, and the official campaigns are very entertaining.
As for NWN2, I started when it did and gave it over a year and a half to get in order. I was pretty constantly disappointed. I actually really wanted to like it honestly, but between a nonexistent (then horribly broken) DM client, near constant crashing/lag(single and multiplayer), horrible path-finding, and graphics that were pretty sub-par (...the last I admit up front is my opinion entirely but the Elves honestly just looked terrible to me and utterly anorexic) I couldn't bring myself to stay with it.
I ended up working on NWN 1 again suffice to say and do think it is the superior product. I have pretty much given up on Obsidian entirely. I don't expect everyone to agree with me or my reasoning but it really did kill any fun I was having with so many bugs and constant issues. Patches, especially early on, just as often broke as much as they fixed. I had next to no fun in the singleplayer stuff including Mask of the Betrayer which I did try.
I don't think it was all bad, I honestly loved the favoured soul and warlock classes and some of the balancing changes they did, but as a system, GUI, and the rest did not make gaining those small things worth all the other aggravations.
By the end of my run, it was 'playable' but I still wasn't having fun with it sadly. It's definitely not an aversion to change, I gave it more than a fair run I believe.
In fairness, my only experience was with single player playing of the official campaigns and with designing and playing single player modules. Reading your post, I had forgotten that they had apparently borked multiplayer for quite awhile. I have 0 interest in multiplayer and the DM server, so I never explored those features and have absolutely no idea how they work--on NWN or NWN2. (NWN2 probably would have been a better project if it focused on one or the other than tried to do it all). I forget that for some people, the whole point of the original NWN WAS multiplayer--and yeah, obviously, I'm sure comparatively NWN2 must have been a disappointment, at least based on the bug reports I've seen regarding multiplayer.
So let me amend: I highly recommend giving NWN2 a second shot if you are looking for a single player experience. :) And especially Mask of the Betrayer.
Reference NWN one and two...
Mask of the Betrayer is excellent in most every way, story wise.
Visually, the character models look much better in NWN2 (Aleron - I've got to disagree with you: elves looked anorexic and had unrealistic... er... proportions... in NWN 1; also the phenotypes were kind of rediculous)
Visually, the character face models looked far, far better in NWN (seriously, all the NWN2 face models looked sleep-deprived like crazy)
Both the OCs were slow and grinding (though NWN2 got better as it went along)
NWN2... never played right. For whatever reason, I've heard all sorts of things about "older computers" and whatnot, but mine is juuuuuuuuuust getting to six years old, this December (old, yes, but not for when NWN2 came out), and I've never gotten it to play well. It plays, but the loading times are atrocious, and the way it crashes... sometimes for no reason... and that's with all the latest patches!
NWN's expansions Shadows of Undrentide and Hordes of the Underdark were actually a significant an improvement over the OC, as was Mask (I never played Storms of Zehir).
Nonetheless, I actually enjoy both of them, and especially the expansions... but only go through multiple replays of NWN, because it's all this computer runs smoothly. Even with updating my comp's stuff twice. Even on the lower end.
(ALSO: MotB should have had options to continue the romance from the OC, blast it all! Also, the OC for NWN2 should have had more romance options... I mean, why would a CN gnome illusionist just as crazy as Grobnar NOT go for the gnome, but the LG human paladin instead? Or why would Neeska be off the menu? Bah! Fantasy racism! :P :D)
[ALSO I'm totally still (SLOWLY!) working on making an Pencil and Paper version of all the NWNs now. I don't have time for this! Too many games to run already!]
EDIT: ALSO Aleron, thanks for the links!
I was mostly talking about the faces when I made the anorexic comment in NWN 2. I tried playing a half elf for the longest time and I swear everyone thought he was sickly or dying. It was that bad. It hurt to look at.
Regardless, I played/play NWN and NWN 2 mostly for the multiplayer and 2 failed it hard. Agree completely on the comment about it never playing quite right, even when I got a brand new computer just so NWN 2 would play better it made only a marginal difference and none toward the crashing.
You're welcome on the links. Been watching them myself as if they can seriously manage to make a good pathfinder server I'm so stopping by now and then.
I was mostly talking about the faces when I made the anorexic comment in NWN 2. I tried playing a half elf for the longest time and I swear everyone thought he was sickly or dying. It was that bad. It hurt to look at.
On that we can both definitely agree! One of my problems in NWN was that the portraits and my character never looked the same. The fixed that in NWN2... but made all the faces (and thus portraits) kind of hideous.
Regardless, I played/play NWN and NWN 2 mostly for the multiplayer and 2 failed it hard. Agree completely on the comment about it never playing quite right, even when I got a brand new computer just so NWN 2 would play better it made only a marginal difference and none toward the crashing.
I can accept that. I never got into the multiplayer stuff, myself. Sadly, I was just about to join an online community when they switched to NWN2, and my machine was never able to keep up with that nonsense.
You're welcome on the links. Been watching them myself as if they can seriously manage to make a good pathfinder server I'm so stopping by now and then.
Yeah, looks like it was last updated a month ago. My hope is that it's not a dead project, but then again, it could have made significant progress without anyone updating on that board in particular.
ALSO DeathQuaker, I'm curious how you'd rate Storm of Zehir. Did you ever play it? Is it worth it? Also, I was remiss in not saying this before, but I, too, am sorry you never got a T-shirt. That's pretty full of fail, right there, but kind of not-to-surprising, given the nature of online communities.
One of the most excellent (but information-consuming) changes in NWN2 from NWN was the item-creation functions. Not only did they look fantastic, but you could customize the daylights out of them. I also really wish that the crafting did you some good in the OCs. You were never able to out-do found items, nor name your items, nor improve things. I grant that technically Hordes had a limit for the weapon-enhancement (if gold wasn't one), but really, a found weapon was still better (for instance: Enserric was the only weapon in the game that was able to get a +13 modifier*). Also, crafting was another thing NWN2 did better, but never quite enough to justify it. Mask improved this a great deal, again, but it was just never quite up to standard, it seemed. Mask was by far the best, though.
I'm curious: would anyone here be interested in working with me in designing NWN (OC1 and Shadows and Hordes expansions OR OC2 and Mask expansions) for PnP play as well? Basically create (an) adventure path(s) out of it/them?
* Only for limited durations, and at the cost of 6 CON points, but still. Speaking of Enserric, it always bothered me that I couldn't put him in my shiny new golem body I crafted. I mean, they have a long conversation about that very thing and then proceed to go nowhere with it. I suppose they didn't want you to feel that you were wasting your money or whatever, if you upgraded Enserric, but it's still kind of silly, and seems like they could have just transferred whatever benefits to the golem. Even if they couldn't figure out how to do that, or didn't want to for whatever reason, they should at least have had a conversation option about it, since you had him right there the whole time! I also figured they thought it was a caster/martial disparity thing, but seriously that's a golden missed opportunity. To use the internet parlance, "I am disappoint."
There are a lot of good character models (mostly faces and hair) for NWN2 that look far better than the stock ones.
There are a lot of good character models (mostly faces and hair) for NWN2 that look far better than the stock ones.
Where? I mean, where do you get such things? Are they simply available in the Vault (created by others that weren't Bioware/Obsidian) or are you talking about shifting through the available faces from the game itself?
The ign neverwinter night Vault.
Link
Visually, the character models look much better in NWN2 (Aleron - I've got to disagree with you: elves looked anorexic and had unrealistic... er... proportions... in NWN 1; also the phenotypes were kind of rediculous)
The girth slider that was added in as part of a patch helps the anorexic elves thing a bit. Not much, but a bit.
And elves in D&D/Pathfinder are anorexic anyway. Especially in Pathfinder, when they can be 6' or taller but under 120 lbs. The only way I can justify elven proportions in D&D and Pathfinder without having them all look super skinny is to theorize that their bone structure is bird-like and less dense than other humanoids.
Both the OCs were slow and grinding (though NWN2 got better as it went along)
NWN2 could really have used the ability to skip the first act like NWN1 had. If people could start the game after Old Owl Well, then there would be fewer complaints about the campaign.
NWN's expansions Shadows of Undrentide and Hordes of the Underdark were actually a significant an improvement over the OC, as was Mask (I never played Storms of Zehir).
Storm of Zehir is different. If you want a story-heavy campaign with lots of NPC interaction, it's a bad campaign for that. If you prefer less dialogue and more explanation, it's decent. It's also got some good toolset innovations.
Ossian Studios put out a semi-official addition, Mask of the Betrayer, which was also pretty good but which seems to no longer be for sale.
(ALSO: MotB should have had options to continue the romance from the OC, blast it all!
I've heard that MotB wasn't originally intended to be a sequel to the original campaign, but was eventually forced to be a sequel because of the lackluster ending of its predecessor.
Also, the OC for NWN2 should have had more romance options... I mean, why would a CN gnome illusionist just as crazy as Grobnar NOT go for the gnome, but the LG human paladin instead? Or why would Neeska be off the menu? Bah! Fantasy racism! :P :D)
If you read some subtext into your dialogue with Neeshka, I think it actually plays as a better romance than Elanee's. Neverwinter Vault also has a ton of fan-created romance mods out there to satisfy just about anybody.
ALSO DeathQuaker, I'm curious how you'd rate Storm of Zehir. Did you ever play it? Is it worth it?
I did not get around to Storm of Zehir--right around the time it came out, I had found out Atari had been using SecuROM for DRM, and I had decided to boycott any publisher that used SecuROM for a variety of complicated reasons (look up "EA SecuROM Lawsuit" sometime if you're bored or just read around reclaimyourgame.com ). Atari DID have SecuROM removed from NWN2 in a patch (or else I'd never be recommending it), but by the time that happened I had moved on to other projects and hadn't gotten around to going back and trying it.
I had a friend who played Storm of Zehir and he enjoyed it--it sounded from his descriptions like it was a bit like the Savage Frontier games from the Gold Box series (which I enjoyed). I certainly would reinstall the game and buy Storm of Zehir.... when I have time. So many games, so little time...
Also, I was remiss in not saying this before, but I, too, am sorry you never got a T-shirt. That's pretty full of fail, right there, but kind of not-to-surprising, given the nature of online communities.
Thank you. Well, it was Obsidian's failure, not the community's. Rob, the Obsidian Rep at the Bioware Boards, took my contact info and I even asked him after I didn't get anything for awhile, and he said, "We'll get around to it" and nothing happened. Although all that doesn't surprise me either. I'm given the sense that most software developer employees are chained in a dungeon allowed only to move one foot in any direction from their PCs, and are fed Cheetos and Mountain Dew only once a day. So I can see that the effort might have failed due to caffeine deprivation or the inability to lift a t-shirt to put it in a mailing packet. ;D
One of the most excellent (but information-consuming) changes in NWN2 from NWN was the item-creation functions. Not only did they look fantastic, but you could customize the daylights out of them. I also really wish that the crafting did you some good in the OCs. You were never able to out-do found items, nor name your items, nor improve things. I grant that technically Hordes had a limit for the weapon-enhancement (if gold wasn't one), but really, a found weapon was still better (for instance: Enserric was the only weapon in the game that was able to get a +13 modifier*). Also, crafting was another thing NWN2 did better, but never quite enough to justify it. Mask improved this a great deal, again, but it was just never quite up to standard, it seemed. Mask was by far the best, though.
Not sure I'm following you right, but.... yes, item creation in NWN2 was awesome. I remember making a really cool cold iron acidic kukri I made (I named it something goofy like Acid Feyng) that I used forever. It royally pissed me off, in fact, that in the NWN2 OC, plot eventually hands you a weapon (is that Enserric? I actually don't remember) you pretty much have to use for part of the plot--why put an awesome magic item creation system in a game that then forces you to use one weapon? I tended to use my own handmade items except when plot demanded I use the other weapon.
I'm curious: would anyone here be interested in working with me in designing NWN (OC1 and Shadows and Hordes expansions OR OC2 and Mask expansions) for PnP play as well? Basically create (an) adventure path(s) out of it/them?
I'm somewhat interested, but I'm curious how you're putting them together. IIRC....
NWN1 OC is a standalone story.
SoU and HotU are to have the same hero (the "Hero of Neverwinter" is referenced as a different character)--so they are one "adventure path."
I would suggest for the first keeping as intended--write SoU and HotU as a separate "AP" -- maybe the NWN1 OC could be a standalone module, so to speak. And honestly, I'd prioritize working on the SoU/HotU story first, as it's a better one.
NWN2 OC and MotB are linked/to have the same hero, but the story is such that it's very dependent on having a single champion. Sure, the Knight Captain gets a lot of friends, but they get to be "the special one" because of the MacGuffin. It works for a single player video game, but adapting it for cooperative play on the tabletop would be tricky. Either the MacGuffin would have to be re-written that it was split between the party evenly (which would be odd and hard to handle right, but if done well, could actually be really cool)--which also means everybody loses their soul in MotB--or one PC gets to be the Knight Captain, which means everybody else has to be handed something else powerful/cool so that they can also get their chance to be in the spotlight.
That said, I really love a lot of the story elements of NWN2/MotB so that would be especially fun to work on.
And elves in D&D/Pathfinder are anorexic anyway. Especially in Pathfinder, when they can be 6' or taller but under 120 lbs. The only way I can justify elven proportions in D&D and Pathfinder without having them all look super skinny is to theorize that their bone structure is bird-like and less dense than other humanoids.
Agreed. I don't think the elves ever caught me off guard because I figured that's what they were supposed to look like.
Both the OCs were slow and grinding (though NWN2 got better as it went along).
NWN2 could really have used the ability to skip the first act like NWN1 had. If people could start the game after Old Owl Well, then there would be fewer complaints about the campaign.
IMO, the whole Old Owl Well part should have been skipped. You should have gotten there, you should have gotten a much faster-paced quest to get into the area where you needed to go, and then let it carry on from there. The "you have to be the guards' buttmonkey for three interminable quests that don't really mean anything" part was the annoying bit about the NWN2 OC. And once you get the stronghold, the game REALLY picks up speed and is fabulous. I think the problem was, they realized they wanted the challenge to be that you had to be a certain high level by the time you got to the stronghold, and so did a lot of time-wasting quests to level you up before the story could really continue. Could have been handled way better. The pacing in MotB was much tighter.
Ossian Studios put out a semi-official addition, Mask of the Betrayer, which was also pretty good but which seems to no longer be for sale.
You mean Mysteries of Westgate. :)
Looks like you can still buy it.
(ALSO: MotB should have had options to continue the romance from the OC, blast it all!
I've heard that MotB wasn't originally intended to be a sequel to the original campaign, but was eventually forced to be a sequel because of the lackluster ending of its predecessor.
I haven't heard that, but as I loathed and completely avoided the romances in the OC (I really, really wanted to punch the paladin in the face. Especially since I don't think I did ANYTHING to romance him, he's just all "but I wub you" and I'm like, "But I'm a Chaotic Neutral Tiefling Rogue, get the heck over yourself."), I had absolutely no disappointment that they were left behind. I wanted to replay as a guy so I could romance the Thayan wizardess, she seemed pretty cool. The hagspawn was at least way better than the two losers they try to force off on the female Knight Captain in the OC (and I didn't think much of the creepy stalker elf druid either). I think I at least led him on for awhile before I dumped him. Mmmm, Crispin Freeman's voice, yummy.
Also, the OC for NWN2 should have had more romance options... I mean, why would a CN gnome illusionist just as crazy as Grobnar NOT go for the gnome, but the LG human paladin instead? Or why would Neeska be off the menu? Bah! Fantasy racism! :P :D)
If you read some subtext into your dialogue with Neeshka, I think it actually plays as a better romance than Elanee's. Neverwinter Vault also has a ton of fan-created romance mods out there to satisfy just about anybody.
I remember reading somewhere that Neeshka was intended to be another romance option, but they had too little development time so wrote it out. I agree it was much easier to pretend that you were romancing Neeshka than actually play out any of the other romances as written (which is what I might have done... *whistles*).
You mean Mysteries of Westgate. :)
Yes, of course. It's a decent module with some fun moments and decent NPCs. The ending is a bit wonky and there's a character whose name sounds like "Man Titties," but it's still worth $10.
TOO MUCH STUFF TO FIT HERE! NICE! IT'S LIKE TALKING TO ME!
First: I understad that time-thing (guh) and yeah, that sounds about like I'd expect programmers to be treated.
Second: Enserric was the sentient, talking sword in the Hordes of the Underdark expansion for NWN. It was actually easy to miss him if you weren't an obsessive explorer, or you turned him down when he requested you rescue him (a frustratingly easy thing to do with a misstroke of a keyboard). He was a longsword, but could turn into a dagger or a greatsword if you wanted (but only once - once you chose which form he was you had that form for the rest of the game. Really, I thought Enserric was a golden opportunity of RP-and-silliness potential that was wasted in Hordes. But that's kind of off-topic.
Anyway, in the NWN OC there was no crafting, but the expansions for NWN added it. It... was terrible. You could make spiffy non-masterwork-no-way-to-enchant-it-save-for-continual flame-spell-blah weapons and armor and sell them for a minor gold boost. Weak. NWN 2 had a very interesting system that they nerfed with required-super-weapon (which was a cool super-weapon, I admit, it was just annoying to have to use theirs).
Third: The short version is that I was unclear on the PnP.
Shadows of Undrentide would actually make a find AP all on it's own, but due to level-plateau at twelve (or thirteen if you wring ever last drop of XP from the thing), I'd drop one more adventure (or two) involving the escape from the City of Shade (or possibly even assisting it in shifting to the material) and/or finding the Relic of the Reaper as the last step. One other possible thing would be to drop the Relic of the Reaper into the beginning of Shadows, but not give it a name, only a description, but hide the truth of it until, say, after Undrentide fell. Then a second AP (Hordes of the Underdark) following on the heels of the first in which the ultimate nature of the Relic would be revealed (as happens in that story). Also, Hordes would be an Epic AP, and would be very much so in the vein of those mentioned in "beyond the AP".
The NWN2 OC has the exact problems that all of them do with being single-player, and I think it could be modded for multiple people fairly easily by a) taking advantage of the Kingmaker Rules, b) making the weapon the thing that hits the Shadow King, but making the rituals things that require multiple participants (and prevent the blade-bearer from using) so that requires multiple people. This would be a fine AP on its own.
Mask would, again, be a great Epic AP-sequel. Only the blade bearer would lose their soul, BUT you're talking about taking on a godlike force, and distinct possibilities are present for those who were imbued with the various rituals (who weren't the blade-bearer) to utilize those powers against the various spirits in Rashemen. Who says the ritual-powers only work against the Shadow King? He was, at the core, a magical spirit. That seems perfect for Rashemen, to me. Possibly even building off of those.
Anyway, that's the gist of what I'm thinking at present.
1) Hack-n-slash-to-RP. Of what measure is an orc? And how dost one allow for dramatic, major shoves against orc armies without killing every last one? Aka: "Old Owl Well, you are terrible." Similar problems oft exist with the OC of NWN (especially Neverwinter and Luskan) and other elements of NWN2 OC (especially the Docks Sweeps and Warehouse raids). More survivalist elements sprinkled with Hack'n'Slash exist prominently in other chapters and Shadows of Undrentide. I'd suggest that instead of constant battle all throughout Undermountain, accords could be reached with various goals accomplished in exchange for rods for the puzzle or other tricks for the chains for level two. The Underdark portion of Hordes lives and breaths for interesting RP side-quests (with Hack'n'Slash dropped in for one or two bits for good measure). XP would have to be reworked, but that's not too hard a thing to do. Mask has a few points of Hack'n'Slash, but Hack'n'Slash isn't a problem so long as it's done in moderation. While this is a relatively easy drop-in for something like 4E (as in, it needs no change) 3.X/Pathfinder is going to take more work to figure out XP conversions and loot drops.
2) NPCs-make-the-story. All of the games are built around the PC (singular) interacting with the NPCs (multitudinous plural). Normal games are about the PCs (plural) interacting with the NPCs (semi-multitudinous plural). Many of the critical/recurring NPC roles will have to be reconsidered for a non-single-player experience. One thing that I'm thinking of is having the mercs from NWN still be available, but be kind of a back-up team and/or assistants. They might be mercenaries, or they might even be junior students that survived the slaughter of the Academy, or just would-be heroes who want to accompany or assist the PCs however they can (likely a combination of all three). Most likely they'd show up and/or be recruited for limited-time-use specifically in the areas of the city that would be suited to their specialties (Tommy/Daelen in the Prison, Sharwyn/Tommy in the Docks, Sharwyn/Linu in the Blacklake, Linu/Boddyknock in the Begger's Nest, etc). NWN2 OC could use the NPCs for various "ruler" positions using the Kingmaker's slots later (that would all be renamed in order to fit with the Knight Captain-as-Supreme theme of NWN, similar to how the improvements would both require special people and be finite in available options). In Shadows, the NPCs could easily be replaced by the PCs (or be other students; PCs could also be willing townsfolk or simply be passing through when the attack happens) and Deekin would be added seamlessly. In Hordes they'd start out like the NWN OC, but quickly be whittled down to just Deekin (or not) and in Mask they'd be available, recurring, important NPCs, but not necessarily party members (or they'd be itinerant, weaker members, at best, as the Power of Plot/PC actions compels them).
Also it was very weak that you couldn't recruit people like the Sleeping Man (an angel of good) to help you STOP THE (well, "a") DEVIL from taking over the world, even though you're his true love! I'm just sayin'.
Fifth: Mysteries of Westgate: sounds good-ish?
Sixth: [spoiler=In which I go 'blah, blah, blah, NWN2 romances are for the lose']The romances were a significant disappointment in NWN2 OC (and in NWN, but most all RP is in that one). There was also some pretty heavy confusion in Mask, because if you wanted to know if your previous romance was dead or not, you got a very definite answer of "... eh, maybe-sort-of, you don't know?" which was weak, at best. Cassavir was weak as a romantic sort "Er, yeah, uh, I mean, well, you see, though, uh, I'm like, er, really charismatic and, um, like, er well-spoken, um, and stuff like that, um, and, er, totally, eh, like a leader, er, that is, a leader of people, you know, while I'm a follower, um, in both word and deed, and, er, immune to fear, uh, well, what I mean is... I want to make sure monsters don't eat you today!" Smooth, Cassavir, smooth. Terribly romantic. Or not.
Then there's Elanee: "So, like, I've been stalking you - just a little! - since you were a child and I watched you grow up (unless we're both elves or you're similarly long-lived) and have been watching you so much that it's caused me to be negligent to my very minimal duties, and I am terribly jealous such that if you do anything nice to another woman I'm angry, because I love you and you should be mine." Yikes.
There were so many great options that were completely bypassed "just because", especially Neeshka (whose dialogue totally calls for it), Grobnar (I mean, you talk about springing his crotch enough), Khelgar (whom you help along major life revelations), and Zhjaeve (who honors and believes in you more than most of your long-term companions and is thus an outcast from her own people). Even Ammon would be more interesting. They took the three worst, most bland ideas they could have and put them as the only options. Qara or Sand would have made a fascinating struggle at the end, unlike Bishop who's only struggle was to kill you or let the Shadow King kill you himself. That was pretty weak. Even Bevil and Amie would have been fair (had the latter not died immediately with no chance of a save, thanks).
In Mask, the Red Wizard, Safiya, is very interesting and I liked her as an option. I'm annoyed, again, that Kaelyn is off-the-menu, but, eh, I got over it because of my experience with NWN2 OC, and at least this time they have a decent excuse (she's emotionally disabled in romance).
In Shadows it was pretty sad that you only had one option, only as a male, and only in the first chapter and proceed to never see her again.
In Hordes it was fairly well done, True Names notwithstanding, even with the ability to create silly tension (and even be successful, according to the dialogue box in the toolset) between a ghost and a living woman for guys (oddly, there was no similar option for tension caused by the ladies).
Anyway, I'm out!
Second: Enserric was the sentient, talking sword in the Hordes of the Underdark expansion for NWN. It was actually easy to miss him if you weren't an obsessive explorer, or you turned him down when he requested you rescue him (a frustratingly easy thing to do with a misstroke of a keyboard).
Ah, yes, I remember now. There was some bouncing between talk of NWN and NWN2 and I got confused.
He was a longsword, but could turn into a dagger or a greatsword if you wanted (but only once - once you chose which form he was you had that form for the rest of the game. Really, I thought Enserric was a golden opportunity of RP-and-silliness potential that was wasted in Hordes. But that's kind of off-topic.
Anyway, in the NWN OC there was no crafting, but the expansions for NWN added it.
I remember the crafting in HotU (and something to a very limited degree in SoU). But you had to go to the one person to upgrade, you couldn't craft yourself.
Third: The short version is that I was unclear on the PnP.NWN OC was, in fact, stand-alone, so that'd be an adventure path by itself. I agree entirely. It would focus on the surviving members of the Class of '72 and could easily have the mercs dropped in as NPCs. There's so much role-playing potential here that's not explored, it's difficult to even start, but it's also quite cool.
Actually that's a good point--everybody could be from the class and work together, that's great.
Shadows of Undrentide would actually make a find AP all on it's own, but due to level-plateau at twelve (or thirteen if you wring ever last drop of XP from the thing), I'd drop one more adventure (or two) involving the escape from the City of Shade (or possibly even assisting it in shifting to the material) and/or finding the Relic of the Reaper as the last step. One other possible thing would be to drop the Relic of the Reaper into the beginning of Shadows, but not give it a name, only a description, but hide the truth of it until, say, after Undrentide fell. Then a second AP (Hordes of the Underdark) following on the heels of the first in which the ultimate nature of the Relic would be revealed (as happens in that story). Also, Hordes would be an Epic AP, and would be very much so in the vein of those mentioned in "beyond the AP".
I think you could alternately combine the two into one--as you say, you had to squeeze the juice out of SoU to get all its flavor, and you could probably skip some of the sidequests or reduce them, getting to Undermountain by mid-level. It would ultimately be a long, long story, and end at level 20+ if not higher (remember you don't need to expect the heroes to be quite so high level because you're going to have a party of 4-6, not a solo hero).
If you DID do them separately, you could borrow from Jade Regent's caravan guidelines and flesh out the desert caravan travel in SoU.
The NWN2 OC has the exact problems that all of them do with being single-player,
Actually, not really. As you point out, NWN's OC has you the student of a militia school, and likewise SoU starts you off as someone's student with a number of classmates, so as you note, all the PCs can start as students. SoU/HotU gets complicated with Who Gets the Relic but that can be worked with.
and I think it could be modded for multiple people fairly easily by a) taking advantage of the Kingmaker Rules, b) making the weapon the thing that hits the Shadow King, but making the rituals things that require multiple participants (and prevent the blade-bearer from using) so that requires multiple people. This would be a fine AP on its own.
Going this route, I would also give the non-Kalach Cha characters different segments of the blade as they find them, so everybody gets a spelllike ability or something.
Mask would, again, be a great Epic AP-sequel. Only the blade bearer would lose their soul, BUT you're talking about taking on a godlike force, and distinct possibilities are present for those who were imbued with the various rituals (who weren't the blade-bearer) to utilize those powers against the various spirits in Rashemen. Who says the ritual-powers only work against the Shadow King? He was, at the core, a magical spirit. That seems perfect for Rashemen, to me. Possibly even building off of those.
I think having only one PC lose their soul (and get the various abilities related to that) is difficult because the primary motivation is to help that one character. The MOTIVATION for the story revolves around one person. That can get annoying to work with, and puts a lot of expectations on the players and GM to be able to work with that. You'd need to be sure everyone has a motivation to be involved beyond "I will help my friend."
And of course the biggest obstacle of all is this is a lot of work for something that could never officially be published, because it violates IP up the wazoo.
Some major hurdles
1) Hack-n-slash-to-RP. Of what measure is an orc? And how dost one allow for dramatic, major shoves against orc armies without killing every last one? (snip)
I would definitely go for being less true to the original, keeping the fights. Especially because a GM in a tabletop game can provide XP for roleplaying and additional quest XP for doing things well and overcoming non-combat challenges. The high level of monsters are for the video game challenge and because they are still the primary source of XP beyond scripted quest XP gains (which the computer cannot adjust to its discretion the way a GM can).
What you could do is list as "random encounters" some of the fights that show up in the stories, for GMs who want to hack'n'slash it up.
Your ideas for Undermountain is also good. Undermountain has also been fleshed out considerably in other modules so I would keep its portion relatively short and sweet.
2) NPCs-make-the-story. All of the games are built around the PC (singular) interacting with the NPCs (multitudinous plural).
Honestly, for the most part? I'd either write them out or write many of them as template characters for people to play AS PCs, for people who don't want to/don't have time to generate their own character. In other words, make the henchmen/companions the "iconics" for the APs. All of the henchmen from the NWN OC could work for this (I don't think you even need them for the quests you list, because they weren't actually required for those quests, they just tended to be the ideal people to take if you yourself didn't have certain skills, the issue of which becomes moot when you have a fully formed adventuring party). This mostly works fine for SoU/HotU as well. HotU gets a little complicated later on, but I think the drow chick can be an NPC guide and Aribeth can still be rescued, and the useless tiefling warrior can be found crushed under a rock.
NWN2 makes it harder as there are some plot relevant companions--Zhjaeve, Shandra Jerro, Ammon Jerro. Zhjaeve probably could just be an NPC who shows up to provide information. The party could choose to take them with her as a GM-played companion, or leave her at the stronghold to perform duties there. Bishop has his small role which could be rewritten if you didn't want to bother with him, or he actually works fine as an NPC without overshadowing the party.
Shandra is assigned to you, and could also remain an NPC (she is also lower level; you're basically on a long term escort quest with her so she works pretty well as is).
Of course,
I find her death at the hands of a brutal cutscene absolutely infuriating and frustrating. Because IF the game were tabletop, the PCs absolutely could have a chance to save her (or even try to resurrect/raise her). And I don't know if forcing her death is fair--but if she's savable, that also has to be dealt with.
Ammon likewise could probably be used as an NPC that accompanies the party when he's required. (IIRC, I actually didn't take him with me as a companion except when the game forced me to, because I didn't like him.)
Likewise, the companions in MotB have important roles to play--although IIRC, none of them are actually plot ESSENTIAL (IIRC, you can devour all of them if you want to and still get to the endgame just fine). So those you could probably write as NPCs who deliver the information they have to deliver, and then the party deals with them as they wish.
Another possibility would be to have the various henchmen/companions available as cohorts for anyone who takes the leadership feat (they'd then be lower level of course)--actually great for NWN2.
Deekin would be added seamlessly.
Yes, he could be seamlessly cut to pieces, burnt to ash, and then have a sphere of annihilation rolled over the ashes, just to be sure.
(Guess who my least favorite NWN companion is. GUESS.)
Also it was very weak that you couldn't recruit people like the Sleeping Man (an angel of good) to help you STOP THE (well, "a") DEVIL from taking over the world, even though you're his true love! I'm just sayin'.
Tabletop has no such restrictions--but I'd leave such a thing up to the GM. Certainly the PCs have the power to recruit anyone they want to, technically, if they do a good job and it makes sense for the NPC to help out.
Re romances: I think my favorite crowning moment of romantic awesome was getting to kiss Annah in Planescape: Torment, and no video game since then (that I've played) has done it as well.
If one were to redo the original NWN campaign as a Pathfinder adventure path, I think it would be best to take a look at what was originally planned:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=community_news.Detail&id=2700
That's the original outline for what was to be the NWN campaign. Development times and legal difficulties with Interplay at the time cut thigns short and forced some changes. Personally, I think the original outline sounds better than what we got.
SPOILERS! UNMARKED! BEWARE!
Second: Enserric was the sentient, talking sword in the Hordes of the Underdark expansion for NWN. It was actually easy to miss him if you weren't an obsessive explorer, or you turned him down when he requested you rescue him (a frustratingly easy thing to do with a misstroke of a keyboard).
Ah, yes, I remember now. There was some bouncing between talk of NWN and NWN2 and I got confused.
Easy to do, I need to clarify better.
I'm now going to cherry-pick things from across the post(s) 'cause, it'll help me be more clear. :)
I remember the crafting in HotU (and something to a very limited degree in SoU). But you had to go to the one person to upgrade, you couldn't craft yourself.
Exactly. That was problematic. Sure, you could make wands and scrolls and potions (all barely and that was never worth it), but there was no real support for making a crafter.
Third: The short version is that I was unclear on the PnP.
NWN OC was, in fact, stand-alone, so that'd be an adventure path by itself. I agree entirely. It would focus on the surviving members of the Class of '72 and could easily have the mercs dropped in as NPCs. There's so much role-playing potential here that's not explored, it's difficult to even start, but it's also quite cool.
Actually that's a good point--everybody could be from the class and work together, that's great.
Thanks! That's similar to what I was trying to get across with the Kalac-Cha, to, though, again, I wasn't clear. I'll go more into that later.
Shadows of Undrentide would actually make a find AP all on it's own, but due to level-plateau at twelve (or thirteen if you wring ever last drop of XP from the thing), I'd drop one more adventure (or two) involving the escape from the City of Shade (or possibly even assisting it in shifting to the material) and/or finding the Relic of the Reaper as the last step. One other possible thing would be to drop the Relic of the Reaper into the beginning of Shadows, but not give it a name, only a description, but hide the truth of it until, say, after Undrentide fell. Then a second AP (Hordes of the Underdark) following on the heels of the first in which the ultimate nature of the Relic would be revealed (as happens in that story). Also, Hordes would be an Epic AP, and would be very much so in the vein of those mentioned in "beyond the AP".
I think you could alternately combine the two into one--as you say, you had to squeeze the juice out of SoU to get all its flavor, and you could probably skip some of the sidequests or reduce them, getting to Undermountain by mid-level. It would ultimately be a long, long story, and end at level 20+ if not higher (remember you don't need to expect the heroes to be quite so high level because you're going to have a party of 4-6, not a solo hero).
This is true, but you'd really have to work hard at this. While a party of four could do things far more easily than a party of one, the game presumes 1-3 companions/henchman (the third being the golem you can create which is actually really powerful). I still think it'd need to go "epic" to really hit that mark well enough. That'd cause its own issues, but I think that the rules can support it fairly well.
If you DID do them separately, you could borrow from Jade Regent's caravan guidelines and flesh out the desert caravan travel in SoU.
THIS is an excellent idea! Actually, taking the KM stuff and applying it to NWN2, the Jade Regent caravan stuff and applying it to SoU, and the Serpent Skull ancient lost city (and the traps article) stuff and applying it to Undrentide itself... that... actually works out really well.
The NWN2 OC has the exact problems that all of them do with being single-player,
Actually, not really. As you point out, NWN's OC has you the student of a militia school, and likewise SoU starts you off as someone's student with a number of classmates, so as you note, all the PCs can start as students. SoU/HotU gets complicated with Who Gets the Relic but that can be worked with.
and I think it could be modded for multiple people fairly easily by a) taking advantage of the Kingmaker Rules, b) making the weapon the thing that hits the Shadow King, but making the rituals things that require multiple participants (and prevent the blade-bearer from using) so that requires multiple people. This would be a fine AP on its own.
Going this route, I would also give the non-Kalach Cha characters different segments of the blade as they find them, so everybody gets a spelllike ability or something.
First, all could be from the village. Replace Amie and/or Bevil (or have them as background characters) and you're golden for motive: revenge. The Kalac-cha might be the only shard/blade-bearer, but my idea of each of them being from the town gives them powerful motivation; making the shard-bearer unable to activate the rituals of purity means that the others not only get abilities. That's actually what I mean about the rituals of the light.
The Kalac-cha, by virtue of being the blade-bearer cannot be a participant in the rituals, while each person can only hold one (or two) rituals themselves, and each ritual requires multiple people. For example, web of purity can't be help by the same person who has Cleansing Nova (which is what happens in-game anyway, which is why you need Amon Jerro). The only thing about it is that there are five, as written, so, given a two-per-person limit, we might want to add one more (presuming a four-man team with one Kalac-cha). I'll post them down below (they're provided for free from GameBanshee, so I don't think there's any problem with it).
"Aurora Chain [Feat ID: 1747]
[Type of Feat: History], [Use: Selected], [Uses Per Day: 1]
[Installation: Neverwinter Nights (Base)]This power, bestowed by the Ritual of Purification, empowers the weapons of the caster and the caster's companions with 1 extra point of attack and damage bonus against evil opponents for every four levels of the caster. This effect lasts for five rounds.
Note: This ability may be used once per day."
"Cleansing Nova [Feat ID: 1744]
[Type of Feat: History], [Use: Selected], [Uses Per Day: 1]
[Installation: Neverwinter Nights (Base)]This power, bestowed by the Ritual of Purification, creates an immobile 5' wide cylinder of light that lasts for four seconds. Any undead or outsider that enters into the cylinder of light suffers 1 point of fire damage per character level of the caster per second. If any victim of this power is also within the area of effect of the Web of Purity, the damage of the Cleansing Nova is applied to all victims of that same Web of Purity.
Note: This ability may be used once per day. "
"Shining Shield [Feat ID: 1745]
[Type of Feat: History], [Use: Selected], [Uses Per Day: 1]
[Installation: Neverwinter Nights (Base)]This power, bestowed by the Ritual of Purification, gives the caster and caster's companions Negative Energy Protection and 3 points of Cold Resistance per character level of the caster. This effect lasts for two rounds.
Note: This ability may be used once per day."
"Soothing Light [Feat ID: 1746]
[Type of Feat: History], [Use: Selected], [Uses Per Day: 1]
[Installation: Neverwinter Nights (Base)]This power, bestowed by the Ritual of Purification, heals the caster and caster's companions of all negative effects and additionally provides them with rapid regeneration (healing one hit point per caster character level each round) for five rounds.
Note: This ability may be used once per day."
"Web of Purity [Feat ID: 1775]
[Type of Feat: History], [Use: Selected], [Uses Per Day: 1]
[Installation: Neverwinter Nights (Base)]This power, bestowed by the Ritual of Purification, will paralyze all undead and outsiders within 30' of the user for 3 rounds. Victims may make a Will save with a DC equal to 10 + (caster's character level/2) * (caster's Intelligence modifier) to prevent the effects. If any target in a Web of Purity is struck by the effect of the Cleansing Nova ritual, all other victims of the same Web of Purity suffer the effects of the Cleansing Nova.
Note: This ability may be used once per day."
So, looking at these and turning them into Pathfinder:
1) Aurora Chain: could be like a Smite attack for self or allies, that works against spirits (as defined in Mask) and undead (for inclusion of corporeal undead).
2) Cleansing Nova: could be something like an personal-range Flame Strike (with no components as a free action that doesn't harm you) that can be channeled by/into an active Web of Purity into making a greater radius.
3) Shining Shield: this could be like a mass variant of a Death Ward and a Fire Shield (both kinds that also defends against negative energy) effect (again, no components, free action, and doesn't provoke AoO, this one lasts one minute per level as death ward).
4) Soothing Light: I could see this as a kind of greater restoration-cum-maximized break enchantment effect with a rider effect that gives anyone under Shining Shield the benefits of fast healing (something low like one quarter of their level) per round in order to make it a teamwork-kind of thing.
5) Web of Purity: I could easily see this functioning as something like mass hold monster save that it specifically targets spirits (as defined by Mask) and coporeal undead and isn't a mind-affecting affect, which also channels Cleansing Nova (and would be described as an actual web of light).
6) <insert name here>: I could see this as being a Judgement Light-style of effect, only without the need for a judgment... kind of similar to a lesser version of the rest of them.
Mask would, again, be a great Epic AP-sequel. Only the blade bearer would lose their soul, BUT you're talking about taking on a godlike force, and distinct possibilities are present for those who were imbued with the various rituals (who weren't the blade-bearer) to utilize those powers against the various spirits in Rashemen. Who says the ritual-powers only work against the Shadow King? He was, at the core, a magical spirit. That seems perfect for Rashemen, to me. Possibly even building off of those.
I think having only one PC lose their soul (and get the various abilities related to that) is difficult because the primary motivation is to help that one character. The MOTIVATION for the story revolves around one person. That can get annoying to work with, and puts a lot of expectations on the players and GM to be able to work with that. You'd need to be sure everyone has a motivation to be involved beyond "I will help my friend."
Very true. Again, going back to the rituals of light, it might be that they are somehow tied to the whole thing themselves. Their abilities are (given the suggested modifications above) exceedingly potent in Rashemen, and that's an appealing thing.
Further, those with the ritual powers, while not required to stick together, certainly encouraged to do so for their own sake. Tying their character class into it helps immensely: male mages are under probation/parole by the witches, female spellcasters are potential witches, warriors of all stripes can join the ice troll lodge as a few examples.
Alternatively (or additionally), make the other PCs fundamental victims by virtue of their connection. Help for self-preservation, otherwise they'll be devoured. Note, this doesn't have to be the PCs choice. If a geas/(lesser) geas/mark of justice-like effect (not actually those effects so HD is ignored, alsoCL 40+) is put on them (by, say the Akachi-remnant), described as they (by virtue of being in such a close proximity in the burrow) are designated "first targets", meaning that if the spirit-eater's isn't controlled somehow, at critical levels, it'll eat them is a great ay to tie them in and one that would make a lot of sense.
And of course the biggest obstacle of all is this is a lot of work for something that could never officially be published, because it violates IP up the wazoo.
True, of course, but I'm not thinking of selling <it and/or them> at all, but presenting <it and/or them> for free and/or running it myself, locally! :)
Some major hurdles
1) Hack-n-slash-to-RP. Of what measure is an orc? And how dost one allow for dramatic, major shoves against orc armies without killing every last one? (snip)
I would definitely go for being less true to the original, keeping the fights. Especially because a GM in a tabletop game can provide XP for roleplaying and additional quest XP for doing things well and overcoming non-combat challenges. The high level of monsters are for the video game challenge and because they are still the primary source of XP beyond scripted quest XP gains (which the computer cannot adjust to its discretion the way a GM can).
What you could do is list as "random encounters" some of the fights that show up in the stories, for GMs who want to hack'n'slash it up.
Your ideas for Undermountain is also good. Undermountain has also been fleshed out considerably in other modules so I would keep its portion relatively short and sweet.
Excellent ideas all-round!
2) NPCs-make-the-story. All of the games are built around the PC (singular) interacting with the NPCs (multitudinous plural).
Honestly, for the most part? I'd either write them out or write many of them as template characters for people to play AS PCs, for people who don't want to/don't have time to generate their own character. In other words, make the henchmen/companions the "iconics" for the APs. All of the henchmen from the NWN OC could work for this (I don't think you even need them for the quests you list, because they weren't actually required for those quests, they just tended to be the ideal people to take if you yourself didn't have certain skills, the issue of which becomes moot when you have a fully formed adventuring party). This mostly works fine for SoU/HotU as well. HotU gets a little complicated later on, but I think the drow chick can be an NPC guide and Aribeth can still be rescued, and the useless tiefling warrior can be found crushed under a rock.
NWN2 makes it harder as there are some plot relevant companions--Zhjaeve, Shandra Jerro, Ammon Jerro. Zhjaeve probably could just be an NPC who shows up to provide information. The party could choose to take them with her as a GM-played companion, or leave her at the stronghold to perform duties there. Bishop has his small role which could be rewritten if you didn't want to bother with him, or he actually works fine as an NPC without overshadowing the party.
Shandra is assigned to you, and could also remain an NPC (she is also lower level; you're basically on a long term escort quest with her so she works pretty well as is).
Of course,
Spoiler:Ammon likewise could probably be used as an NPC that accompanies the party when he's required. (IIRC, I actually didn't take him with me as a companion except when the game forced me to, because I didn't like him.)Likewise, the companions in MotB have important roles to play--although IIRC, none of them are actually plot ESSENTIAL (IIRC, you can devour all of them if you want to and still get to the endgame just fine). So those you could probably write as NPCs who deliver the information they have to deliver, and then the party deals with them as they wish.
Another possibility would be to have the various henchmen/companions available as cohorts for anyone who takes the leadership feat (they'd then be lower level of course)--actually great for NWN2.
If one were to redo the original NWN campaign as a Pathfinder adventure path, I think it would be best to take a look at what was originally planned:
Linkification for your Edification
That's the original outline for what was to be the NWN campaign. Development times and legal difficulties with Interplay at the time cut thigns short and forced some changes. Personally, I think the original outline sounds better than what we got.
As far as the original outline, that sounds pretty good, but I'm not too positive it would work better than what we really got for an OC. Yes, it sounds far more epic and "deep"... but it also sounds far too self-important. Like its trying too hard to get a "message" across. I suspect that if all that were put into gameplay it would come down as heavy-handed and be a dark, frustrating game of doom, and the illusions popping up and fading out would be especially frustrating for players ("What do you mean, I didn't get any XP?! I just killed a lich! Oh, for... it was "an illusion". Great."). I think some of the concepts presented are far stronger than the OC as it stands, but it would need an equal amount of work to go from that document to a really good PC game.
But...
Using the Words of Power as extremely powerful magic makes sense to me, though I'd suggest it actually functions under the use of the Words of Power that Paizo has published, perhaps with a bit of finesse to make them function together in ritual in some way. That would be neat.
Causing inanity over time is also really cool, and something that Paizo has covered in the APG. That would be a powerful, neat mechanic. I'd suggest that the Wailing Death actually cause various forms of insanity (though the PCs, if they ever receive it, don't receive the kinds that makes them NPCs) as well as other problems, probably often random, but more scripted in the case of the PCs.
Replacing "lizardfolk" as presented in the document with "Ssarukh" in the game is actually a great idea... it just needs to be truly implemented (instead of lazy lizardfolk-called-ssarukh we have in the game). This necessitates a few changes, but I think it still works fairly well.
Yet another thing that would be pretty good is if more Yuan-Ti, actual lizardfolk, and the like were involved. After all, these crafted races are genetically the servants of the ssarukh race, so I could see them being a potent set of enemies in the game. This might add more to the intrigue of the game itself.
And now, an in-depth look at Henchmen, their stories, and similar in NWN, NWN2 and their various expansions.
Since both PCs (students) and mercs work for Aribeth and Fenthik, sometimes they might be regrouped according to what their superiors think, or perhaps the players all have the disease, and have unexpected bouts of weakness and failure: both allowing for a player to be absent and replaced by a merc for a session or two, allowing interaction with the NPCs, but the missing PC is also out doing something (instead of just fading away) or is otherwise occupied (again, instead of just suddenly silent and not doing anything). In some ways they could even be used for bonus XP for quest rewards (instead of and/or with random magic item enhancement) or even boons, ala Serpent Skull and Golarion NPC guide characters.
One other tool for story is Boddyknock Glinckle and Grimgnaw being seduced by the power of Morag's amulets (and thus be ignored later on after they turn traitor), and it would be a fascinating watch to see how things suss out with PCs who've succumbed to the influence (I'd treat it like a suggestion effect in Morag's presence, only with an extra will save per round).
All this is highly useful for purposes of blending the characters into the story, but also allows the PCs to both know and interact with but not drag around the other characters. "Down" times could be spent together at various mercenary-friendly locales (such as taverns or inns) to help compare notes. Another element in which they could be used, depending on PC build, is that to cut down on the hack-n-slash while not downplaying the PCs accomplishments or the scope of the violence. The mercs could be the "brute squad" so to speak, going in and causing a ruckus that draws attention away from the PCs who can then enter through more subtle means. Or, if there's multiple ways to enter a place, like there are in the Peninsula district, the mercs take the one the PCs don't, and can act as back-up, aid, and deus-ex-machina without worrying about the introduction of epic magic items like multiple at-will use Stones of Recall (though single-use stones, purchased in advanced from the Many Starred Cloak could be acceptable and make sense). Or if a PC dies and can't get raised (at least for a while), the nPC can replace them as a built-in back-up character. Deekin is as Deekin does and, though you might not like him DQ (understandable) he's rather popular, and would probably be sorely missed. I'd mostly have him just tag along after the party scribbling things, but not sticking his neck out or really being a hero. He'd take all the stuff that PCs don't really want, like item crafting or other such things. He'd also focus on stealth and craft (writing) to make sure it fit with character (he'd hang around behind everyone else and write their stories).
In the OC of NWN2, none of the henchman play plot-integral pieces save (in no particular order):
1) Bishop, 2) Cassavir, 3) Elanee, 4) Shandra, 5) Ammon, 6) Zjaeve 7) Sand. All the rest are able to be bypassed entirely. Elanee's is debatable and could easily be rewritten (though you'd need another way of getting stuff from the druids) as is Cassavir's (make a different leader of the people or nix him entirely - it would affect the necessary dialogue, but not by much). Bishop's role isn't completely essential, but does make an interesting story point. Sand's can easily be rewritten for any mage at all. Zjaeve isn't truly that critical, though she helps with a few things. She can be written out, but you'd need to pass her stuff on to someone else. That leaves Shandra and Ammon. What I'd recommend is that Shandra not actually be a fighter as she is in-game, but a warlock.
SPOILER WARNING:
That way, when the time comes for her to die, the PCs can actually choose between her and Ammon. They probably don't know or realize it's a choice, but that's how it would run. If she ends up dying and the PCs don't have a direct method of saving her, her death not only collapses the Haven (a stupid plot-point) but also Ammon unwittingly devours her soul via the infernal forces of the Haven simultaneously preventing her resurrection but finally reattaining his full power. It is only then that he realizes what's just happened. If, on the other hand, the PCs manage to save Shandra, Ammon's soul is devoured by his own granddaughter... again, not on purpose, but as a byproduct of the energies of the Haven being run by opposing infernal forces, it would just kind of happen. This would give Shandra a power-boost, and grant her insights into and knowledge of her grandfather, allow for the plot to progress, and allow for a lack of needing Ammon - she'd suddenly gain many of his abilities, including the web of purity and the ability to read true names. Until then, I'd recommend she be what amounts to a low-level Pathfinderized warlock. This also works because she could even be living like a commoner before that, and discover her dark powers suddenly and without warning manifesting before her eyes when fighting off the lizardfolk.
One other thing with a PnP: time. The passage of time is an important thing, and NWNOC didn't really get it across very well, nor Hordes nor NWN2OC. Get the point across to your players that time is passing. The Plague should take a few months at least in NWNOC. In Hordes... well, time is somewhat mutable as you're underground so much, it makes sense that time kind of fugues together, and hell is interminable, so that, too, makes sense. In NWN2OC, the passage of a year is needed to tell the story properly, in my opinion. It just doesn't work otherwise. Seasons help this kind of thing a great deal, I think.
Anyway, that's probably enough for now. :)
What do you guys think? As always, feel free to choose the parts you wish to respond to and ignore others.
Deekin would be added seamlessly.
Yes, he could be seamlessly cut to pieces, burnt to ash, and then have a sphere of annihilation rolled over the ashes, just to be sure.
(Guess who my least favorite NWN companion is. GUESS.)
Hm. I'm going to guess Gan! Am I right? I bet I am! What do I win!? Ooh, is it a T-Shirt*? :D
Also it was very weak that you couldn't recruit people like the Sleeping Man (an angel of good) to help you STOP THE (well, "a") DEVIL from taking over the world, even though you're his true love! I'm just sayin'.
Tabletop has no such restrictions--but I'd leave such a thing up to the GM. Certainly the PCs have the power to recruit anyone they want to, technically, if they do a good job and it makes sense for the NPC to help out.
True! Although I wasn't talking about PnP anymore, but rather the games themselves, you make a nice point.
Re romances: I think my favorite crowning moment of romantic awesome was getting to kiss Annah in Planescape: Torment, and no video game since then (that I've played) has done it as well.
I've heard much of this game and never gotten to play it myself. Sounds good, though!
*Sorry, I couldn't resist!
Another thing I stupidly forgot to mention reference PF optional rules that'd work great for many reasons:
The Jade Regent romance mechanics for building NPC romances and getting boons, much like in Mask. That's some great stuff and it would work well for much of the interaction with hench-person NPCs and those like Aribeth or Arin Gend.
The insanity-induction rules briefly alighted upon in Carrion Crown. Nicely, they'd be useful with the Words of Power thing for the first OC.
Also, reference Hench's in the NWN2 OC - I mentioned writing them out, but you don't have to. Even drag-parts like Old Owl Well don't have to be written out, they just need to be written over so they aren't actually drags on the story or "filler"/grindy quests.
Also, for Mask, although I didn't mention it, a geas/quest+lesser geas+mark of justice (basically a contingent curse) effect is almost exactly what the Spirit Eater mechanic in Mask of the Betrayer uses. Instead of making it a sliding scale of seriousness, I'd use the spell effects (maybe with an occasional enervation here or there) that are mitigated or even temporarily undone by consuming spirits, but have an increasing (or decreasing) frequency of them. The various other abilities are ways around that. It needs to be something that will catch up to the player eventually (thus the different effects) but isn't a constant chore to deal with and/or potential instant death sentence (like it became in Mask). Best part of the linked sacrifices is that the other PCs would suffer the same consequences as the Spirit Eater, whether they wanted to or not.
One other thing reference Mask is that while one character could be the Spirit Eater, not all the players have to import their characters from NWN. Others could be prisoners in the barrow for their own reasons. That place had many other trapped and sealed spirits, after all. And its quite possible that the close proximity in the barrow, again, made them the "first targets". Spirit magic is strange, after all.
Reference Shadows and Hordes, Shadows of Undrentide is supposed to occur in 1372 DR, at the exact same time of NWNOC. In between the end of that game and the beginning of Hordes, the PC(s) not only were trapped in the shadow plane, but had time to find a way out of there, and enjoy at least several months of fame beyond their home town, while the Harpers and Deekin both had time to spread the tales - the Harpers by word of mouth, and Deekin by having a best-selling book. That's several months in the making right there. By the time Shadows finishes (and the PC(s) have traveled halfway across a continent by caravan) and Hordes begins (and the PCs have gained around three levels from the end of Shadows) I'd say it's fair to presume that a full year has passed. In 1373 DR, if I recall, the city of Shade (where the PCs were bound for some time) returned to the material, which is ripe for adventure itself. It might even prove that one (or more) of the PCs wants to become a shade, which isn't beyond the realm of possibility, nor outside of the powers dealt with in Hordes which, with a geas, the anti-teleport of both Undermountain (the mythal-like effect) and the Underdark (faerzress), and the nature of being inextricably bound to Hell, doesn't break the game at all.
Also to clarify my response to the original idea for the NWN OC:
2) The important parallels and morals are laid on too thick and rely on detailed knowledge of the enemies' back-story, which there's no way for the PCs to get, as presented. There's a book of prophecies, true, but unless someone wants to max out their game's book-handling capability, there's just much lost there. Besides, what player would want to read that much small, painful text just to get overly heavy-handed parallels and "moral lessons" that obscure morality? And spreading it out into dialogue form would be just as bad. It's not a bad story, but it's not really a high-fantasy theme they're making. The one way I could see this working is with in-game cut-scenes the likes of which we didn't see until Hordes of the Underdark.
3) I actually like the story-as-presented in the NWNOC. I just don't like the story-as-applied-with-game play. The actual story of the OC is really good. The application of that story, complete with nothing-but-fetch-quests style of game play is what made it so odious, to me. Chapter one, okay, that's basically written as a fetch-quest-with-boss ending. Chapter two didn't have to be fetch-quests, though. It could have been done with RP, subtlety, and subterfuge, but instead it boils down to: grab two-to-four pieces of paper (meanwhile grab several ears), enter city; grab two seals, enter tower; grab four levers, enter top floor; end scene." Chapter three is the same - although there was a fetch-quest concept, it didn't need to have item triggers (just about the only form of questing the OC seemed to recognize) and instead could have been built around accomplishing triggers (such as merely finding the source-stones, instead of grab-and-return). Chapter four was not a fetch-quest, and it was better for it. Another problem with the gameplay as applied is that even most of the side-quests were, effectively, fetch-quests. Find all the lost tombs of Never; plunder their items; return for reward. Find all the art pieces; plunder them; return. Find all the bandit ears; plunder them; return. Find all the druids; free them (ooh, variety!); return. Find all the orc-leader heads; take them; return. And so on it goes. ALL of the side-quests are like that. So in between fetch-quests, you get... fetch-quests.
Hordes had only two "required" fetch quests (the four chains in Undermountain level two and the ring pieces in chapter four), while a third "required" could be done with your choice of two different fetch-quests, which means it was up to you how to handle it/solve the puzzle (getting past Undermountain level one). All the rest was mostly up to you how to handle it, or doesn't involve fetching items, or is optional.
Anyway, the point is that the OC really boiled down to repetitive fetch-quests for most of it, but it didn't have to, and the story was well-made, the application doesn't.