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Hi folks,
Had a sorcerer using magical lineage trait in conjunction with the merciful spell metamagic feat to shoot non-lethal magic missiles all day long yesterday. I allowed it as I couldn't find a ruling quickly (no net access), we were behind time, and it wasn't game-breaking in this particular situation. [EDIT: fixed a missed reference, thanks Andrew! Not enough coffee yet]
It seems RAW legal (though clearly against RAI). I've seen lots of discussion on using this combo, and the related unlimited-healing-glorious-spark-orison debate. Mark indicated that the glorious heat update would appear in the Additional Resources list but it hasn't made it in there yet, and there doesn't seem to be a ruling on the ability of magical lineage trait to reduce a spell below its original level. Both of these clarifications would be appreciated when there's time to get to them (I know folks are busy). I've already ruled it illegal in future at my tables, but it would be nice to have a ruling to back that up.
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Hi folks,
Had a sorcerer using magical lineage trait in conjunction with the merciful spell metamagic feat to shoot non-lethal magic missiles all day long yesterday. I allowed it as I couldn't find a ruling quickly (no net access), we were behind time, and it wasn't game-breaking in this particular situation. I realize now it was illegal (sorcerers don't *have* zero-level spell slots, so they can't cast cantrips).
But for a wizard, it seems RAW legal (though clearly against RAI). I've seen lots of discussion on using this combo, and the related unlimited-healing-glorious-spark-orison debate. Mark indicated that the glorious heat update would appear in the Additional Resources list but it hasn't made it in there yet, and there doesn't seem to be a ruling on the ability of magical lineage trait to reduce a spell below its original level. Both of these clarifications would be appreciated when there's time to get to them (I know folks are busy). I've already ruled it illegal in future at my tables, but it would be nice to have a ruling to back that up.
Correction:
Cantrips: Sorcerers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.
Sorcerers do get cantrips. They aren't on their chart of spells per day, because you can use cantrips at will. But at 1st level, they get 4 known cantrips.
Merciful Spell (Metamagic)
Your damaging spells subdue rather than kill.
Benefit: You can alter spells that inflict damage to inflict nonlethal damage instead. Spells that inflict damage of a particular type (such as fire) inflict nonlethal damage of that same type. A merciful spell does not use up a higher-level spell slot than the spell's actual level.
7 Magical Lineage: One of your parents was a gifted
spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but
developed many magical items and perhaps even a new
spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this
greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait.
When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its
actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s f inal
adjusted level.
My thoughts is, that magic missile would be considered a 0 level spell ONLY for adjusting its final level when applying a meta magic feat to it. But after applying Merciful Spell, you would not add a level, since Merciful Spell doesn't add a level, therefore magic missile would be adjusted to a 1st level spell. It doesn't revert to 0 level in this instance.
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Gah - don't know where that came from... of course, that's right. So it's not clear-cut for either the sorc or the wizard.Correction:
Sure it is. The trait doesn't allow you to cast the spell at less than its original level. It just lets you consider the spell 1 level lower while figuring out your adjusted level due to applying a metamagic feat. If the level isn't adjusted, then it doesn't apply. You cannot cast magic missile as a 0-level spell.
Additionally, a Sorcerer must cast the spell that has a meta-magic feat applied as a full-round action (which can be interrupted quite easily).
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Additionally, a Sorcerer must cast the spell that has a meta-magic feat applied as a full-round action (which can be interrupted quite easily).
It's a full round action which just means they don't also get a move action (5ft step is still ok)
This is different then a casting time of 1 round which makes the spell casting continue until the beginning of your next turn.
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My thoughts is, that magic missile would be considered a 0 level spell ONLY for adjusting its final level when applying a meta magic feat to it. But after applying Merciful Spell, you would not add a level, since Merciful Spell doesn't add a level, therefore magic missile would be adjusted to a 1st level spell. It doesn't revert to 0 level in this instance.
Sorry, I'm not following your logic here... it clearly says that it reduces the spell's actual level by one for determining the final adjusted level. So the final adjusted level will be (1-1)+0=0. EDIT: unless you're saying that the trait doesn't apply at all to Merciful Spell, since that metamagic feat doesn't adjust the level, I could see that.
Of course I still don't think it works since a cantrip isn't necessarily the same thing as a 0 level spell.
Either way, unlimited merciful magic missles isn't that bad, the real problem starts when you get Magi spellstriking merciful shocking grasp every round.
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Sure it is. The trait doesn't allow you to cast the spell at less than its original level.
So it's not clear-cut for either the sorc or the wizard.
Alas, that's not how the trait reads...
APG p. 329: "Magical Lineage: One of your parents was a gifted
spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also
developed many magical items and perhaps even a new
spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this
greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When
you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level
as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level."
I agree, it *should* say it reduces the adjustment, but it doesn't - says it reduces the spell's level by one.
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Remember that you need to use common sense when interpreting rules for PFRPG. In this instance it's probably a good assumption any GM can make to say that the trait will reduce any metamagic down to a minimum of 0 adjustment. Not every situation should need to be FAQed, otherwise we should just play a computer game or use a robot for a GM!
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I agree, it *should* say it reduces the adjustment, but it doesn't - says it reduces the spell's level by one.
Actually it doesn’t say it reduces the spell’s level at all.
treat its actual level
as 1 lower
To follow up on this.
When you "treat" something like something else, in order to do a calculation, it doesn't change that something. That something is still what it is. All it does is change the final outcome of said calculation.
In this case, if that something is a 5th level spell, and no actual calculation is done, then that something is still a 5th level spell. If the meta-magic feat added 1 to the level, then you'd treat the 5th level spell like a 4th level spell, add 1 and get 5 (instead of 6). If the meta-magic feat added 3 to the level, then you'd treat the 5th level spell like a 4th level spell, add 3, and get 7 (instead of 8.)
Additionally, there is no such thing as a 0-level spell.
Cantrips and Orisons are different animals, and just because the "level" of your spell might change to 0 (assuming you want to interpret the trait incorrectly), does not make it a cantrip. You can not cast a 0-level spell at will. You can cast cantrips and orisons at will.
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Additionally, there is no such thing as a 0-level spell.Cantrips and Orisons are different animals, and just because the "level" of your spell might change to 0 (assuming you want to interpret the trait incorrectly), does not make it a cantrip. You can not cast a 0-level spell at will. You can cast cantrips and orisons at will.
Actually, Cantrips and Orisons *are* 0-level spells:
Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from an opposition school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).
The same text exists for Orisons, except for the text about opposition schools and changing "cantrips" to "orisons."
The spell lists in both the Core Rulebook and in the PRD both refer to "0-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells (Cantrips)" and "0-Level Cleric Spells (Orisons)"
It's clear that the two terms are defined as 0-level spells. The names are throwbacks to the original AD&D Unearthed Arcana, if I recall correctly, and were kept by WotC in 3E for flavor and tradition. When Paizo made 0-level spells non-expendable, they kept the names, but functionally, they are still just 0-level spells.
Can you cite a reference to a 0-level spell that is not a cantrip or orison?
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I recently had this come up and this is my RAW handling of it. If you look at each class entry, Cantrips is a class feature separate from Spells. Therefore, any Cantrip (or Orison for the same discussion on Orisons) that is listed in a legally available PFS publication can be prepared in a Cantrip slot. However, since Cantrips are a separate class feature form spells, then Spells cannot be prepared in Cantrip slots. Luckily, since the rules state that Cantrips, "are cast like any other spells" then meta-magic feats can be applied to Cantrips. In that case they take up your # per Day slots as usual and would then be limited in how many time you can cast them.
So, in summary, Cantrips and Orisons are separate class features from Spells and, given their unique ability to be continuously recast, cannot accommodate Spells (in the rules mechanic - class feature, RAW sense of the word).
So, a Merciful Ray of Frost or Acid Splash can be cast all day long. However, a Merciful Magic Missile or Shocking Grasp, although mathematically a 0th level spell, must still take up the MINIMUM available non-cantrip slot which is still a 1st level spell slot.
"Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table 3–16 under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but
it uses up two of his available slots (see below)." - Core Rule Book page 79
"Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Chapter 10. A wizard must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time." - Core Rule Book Page 78
Is it just me or does this say "for determining the spell’s final
ADJUSTED level." As far as I know, you cannot adjust a spell to a lower spell level slot. Since this only applies to the adjusted level, and not the actual level, I would think you could NOT cast magic missile as a 0-level spell.Am I wrong in thinking this?
according to the developers, you can't reduce a spells level below the starting level
We had someone necro'ing old threads with appropriate FAQ updates, which I thought was nice for making searching the old threads useful, but he was chided for all the necros and he stopped...
shame really.
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There is no way to cast spells bellow their book listed level. You can cast Them in Higher slots , but not lower slots. Metamagic feats all have a level adjustment +0 +1 +2 +3 +4 etc. There is no way to use feats like magical lineage in conjunction to metamagic feats to cast a spell bellow its indended level.
This comes up periodically, although why somone had to necro a 3 year old thread over it..
Here is a quote from
Hey there Folks,
Magical Lineage was never intended as a way for you to actually lower a spell's level. It was put in to allow you to reduce the increase from a metamagic feat. So, no unlimited magic missiles. I will see to it that the language of this ability is clarified soon and I will get this added to the FAQ.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I didnt check if this was ever faqed tho as that is from 2012. You can assume the same is true for any ability that lowers the cost of a metamagic feat.