I always pick my character last to try and best fit the group, and right now I am about to start a new campaign with some friends who are playing a
Ninja
Ranger
Fighter
The ninja will be going for a sap master/CBM build, and the other 2 are going for damage (TWF Fighter).
The campaign is low magic, and I am at a loss for what to play. I am trying to find a way to work an inquisitor into this or druid so I can help control a little bit/buff and heal. Other than that I have even though of playing an abjuration wiz or an illusionist....even a tanking cleric but I cannot seem to find what makes sense to compliment this group.
Also, since the campaign is low magic any advice on what item creation feats would best serve these 3 if I chose to go that route?
thanks!
I recommend a bard. You'll be able to pinch heal, you'll have some effective enchantment spells, and you'll be able to buff those melee sorts into doing even more damage. You'll also have face skills and still be able to wade into melee as required.
I recommend a bard. You'll be able to pinch heal, you'll have some effective enchantment spells, and you'll be able to buff those melee sorts into doing even more damage. You'll also have face skills and still be able to wade into melee as required.
I currently play a bard as my "main" so I was trying to avoid playing a controller bard twice :(. The thought did cross my mind though.
Hmm, I'm wondering if the ranger is melee or ranged? Well, it doesn't matter really. I'm going to subvert the whole "play what you want" and just dip right into "don't get stuck playing the healer." Depending on entirely how low magic this world really is you need to consider if you'll be able to purchase wands of cure light wounds. If yes, you can hand them to the Ranger and they can heal your group. If no, you should consider going a route that will let you craft wands of Cure Light Wounds.
Looking at your options, which I see are Wizard, Inquisitor, and Druid, I offer this:
Wizard: The best battlefield controller in the game, hands down. If this is something you like, I'd probably go this route. Haste is going to do your group a lot of good, as you've got 3+ weapon users. Abjuration is one of the lesser schools of magic, so I'd probably go with Illusion instead. Simply because it's easier to find an illusion spell you want every level, and the Image line is wonderful if you're creative.
Inquisitor: Wouldn't be too difficult to work into the group, but you should be aware that you will be a hybrid weapon user (similar to a bard). They've got a lot of utility to offer a group, and this group needs utility, so it's not wasted. They're somewhat caster lite, though.
Druid: Perhaps your strongest option, though you may find some drawbacks in your campaign world. Druids are powerful battlefield controllers, but in less natural environments they tend to find their abilities limited (but not useless). They rely a lot on summoning companions to eat up space on the battlefield and have some decent utility. Access to basic healing spells (cure light) lets you grab Craft Wand and keep your party healed, and also allows you to pursue more situational spells that can be converted into summons (lesser restoration, cure disease, etc).
Consider also:
Cleric: A cleric is a great addition to the party as it provides lots of buffs, debuffs, and crowd control at higher levels. If you take the Evangelist archetype you'll lose some of your proficiencies, and take a small hit to your channel energy (who cares?) but gain the Bard's most powerful buffs from Bardic Performance. You lose a domain, but a single strong choice can easily rectify that. The Evangelist is also an incredibly strong summoner, as the action requirements for the evangelist's performance start at move and then quickly progress to swift action.
Bard: Basically the arcane version of an inquisitor with less of a focus on offense and more of a focus on utility. With the intense amount of archetypes out there it won't be hard to find a character you're interested in. The Sandman is my personal favorite, though I've seen much hooplah about the Arcane Duelist.
Hmm, I'm wondering if the ranger is melee or ranged? Well, it doesn't matter really. I'm going to subvert the whole "play what you want" and just dip right into "don't get stuck playing the healer." Depending on entirely how low magic this world really is you need to consider if you'll be able to purchase wands of cure light wounds. If yes, you can hand them to the Ranger and they can heal your group. If no, you should consider going a route that will let you craft wands of Cure Light Wounds.
Looking at your options, which I see are Wizard, Inquisitor, and Druid, I offer this:
Wizard: The best battlefield controller in the game, hands down. If this is something you like, I'd probably go this route. Haste is going to do your group a lot of good, as you've got 3+ weapon users. Abjuration is one of the lesser schools of magic, so I'd probably go with Illusion instead. Simply because it's easier to find an illusion spell you want every level, and the Image line is wonderful if you're creative.
Inquisitor: Wouldn't be too difficult to work into the group, but you should be aware that you will be a hybrid weapon user (similar to a bard). They've got a lot of utility to offer a group, and this group needs utility, so it's not wasted. They're somewhat caster lite, though.
Druid: Perhaps your strongest option, though you may find some drawbacks in your campaign world. Druids are powerful battlefield controllers, but in less natural environments they tend to find their abilities limited (but not useless). They rely a lot on summoning companions to eat up space on the battlefield and have some decent utility. Access to basic healing spells (cure light) lets you grab Craft Wand and keep your party healed, and also allows you to pursue more situational spells that can be converted into summons (lesser restoration, cure disease, etc).Consider also:
Cleric: A cleric is a great addition to the party as it provides lots of buffs, debuffs, and crowd control at higher levels. If you take the Evangelist archetype...
I am leaning towards druid as it seems to make the most sense and can really aid the group (summons take hits and help flank and I can go into form and cast with the right feats meaning I do not die). This has pretty much cinched it for me, shame I can never play an illusionist in a good setting though!
I recommend a bard. You'll be able to pinch heal, you'll have some effective enchantment spells, and you'll be able to buff those melee sorts into doing even more damage. You'll also have face skills and still be able to wade into melee as required.
I recommend a bard. You'll be able to pinch heal, you'll have some effective enchantment spells, and you'll be able to buff those melee sorts into doing even more damage. You'll also have face skills and still be able to wade into melee as required.The other fifth wheel. ^^
That's more clever than I originally realized.
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Then consider a witch. You also get some healing abilities, as well as debuffs and control spells. Great for softening up targets for the bruisers, or preventing incoming damage.
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Hedge Witch : Patron Healing
Can heal well. Now you have all the major spells needed for this roll. And with spontanus cure you don't have to use spell slots on it after level 4.
Can debuff with the right hexes.
Can control the battle space with the rigth spells.
The real down side is how meny spells per day you get. With filling all of the roles you will be straped on spells per day.
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Trying to compliment a 4 person group
Tell them not to fight and that you think they're all pretty.
The campaign is low magic, and I am at a loss for what to play. I am trying to find a way to work an inquisitor into this or druid so I can help control a little bit/buff and heal. Other than that I have even though of playing an abjuration wiz or an illusionist....even a tanking cleric but I cannot seem to find what makes sense to compliment this group.
Inquisitor, Druid, Bard or tanking Cleric all seem like great options for a four man group with three other melee archetypes.
If you are considering Item Creation feats, for the long run, Cleric or Druid will have the best selection of items available (stat enhancers, resist cloaks, etc.), thanks to their much larger spell-lists / spells known.
Hedge Witch : Patron Healing
Can heal well. Now you have all the major spells needed for this roll. And with spontanus cure you don't have to use spell slots on it after level 4.
Can debuff with the right hexes.
Can control the battle space with the rigth spells.
The real down side is how meny spells per day you get. With filling all of the roles you will be straped on spells per day.
The Hedge Witch is a dull, middling archetype. Spontaneous healing is mediocre at the very best, as most healing should be done through Cure Light Wounds wands which the Witch can begin crafting as early as 5th level. Empathic healing is even worse. You cure the disease/poison, sure, but you're forced to take the penalty of a failed save anyway? This is usually ability damage, which is going to require lesser restoration to heal- and the witch can't cast that. Neutralize poison & Remove disease are both witch spells, however.
A witch interested in taking up the healing secondary role is better served taking one or both of the healing hexes and craft wand at 5th level. The heal skill is also an excellent use of skill points due to its ability to spontaneously treat poisons & diseases.
Someone never bothered to look at the Healing Patron.
A normal witch is a secondary healer. But a witch that actually wants to be a healer can replace a cleric. Will they be better than a cleric who's 100% devoted to healing? Probably not, but how many cleric players are 100% devoted to it? The ones I play with sure aren't. I think the average cleric player is going to invest some time and effort into a few other areas of the class as well.
You're right, I'd forgotten the spells that the healing patron offered. Still, I stand by my assessment. The hedge witch is a crappy archetype. But then, I feel that's true of any character who attempts to take on a healing role in combat. Healing should be an out-of-combat role or emergencies only.
That is why you want spontanus cure.
So cure spells do not have to be prepared a head of time. You can pick all the crowed control, summons, and other spells you want to cast. And still cast cure if needed.
Spontaneous curing is decent (especially if it allows you to spontaneous cast heal - most spontaneous curing does not as it specifies cure spells only), but empathic healing is really poor imo. So the guy makes the next save without any bonus, and if he fails, the witch gets the damage. Yes, because a caster is exactly the right guy to take ability damage for other people...
Anyway, for this group, I think the witch offers just about enough of everything casterish to work.
Anyway, for this group, I think the witch offers just about enough of everything casterish to work.
I agree. With the inclusion of hexes the witch won't be as tied to the 15 minute adventuring day as other casters, and that's going to be a good thing in this caster-lite group.
You're short a cleric and wizard.
So either druid, or mystic theurge.
Or a witch/druid/theurge, for some fun flavor. Even better if you can talk your GM into the 3.5 Arcane Hierophant PrC, which is basically a druidic theurge.
Those aren't bad options. This party is actually one of the few that would actively support the Mystic Theurge. Particularly because you won't have another full caster hanging around showing you what spells you could have had if you'd stayed pure.
Those aren't bad options. This party is actually one of the few that would actively support the Mystic Theurge. Particularly because you won't have another full caster hanging around showing you what spells you could have had if you'd stayed pure.
after reading another thread, I thought Druid/witch MT would be useful in this situation, which is pretty rare. Also, we openly use 3.5 provided it doesnt contradict something going on in PF.
Those aren't bad options. This party is actually one of the few that would actively support the Mystic Theurge. Particularly because you won't have another full caster hanging around showing you what spells you could have had if you'd stayed pure.after reading another thread, I thought Druid/witch MT would be useful in this situation, which is pretty rare. Also, we openly use 3.5 provided it doesnt contradict something going on in PF.
Plus, the flavor is hard to beat. Try looking up the Arcane Hierophant from 3.5, masters of the wild I think. SunsetPsychosis mentioned it earlier, and it's exactly what you're looking for (if your DM approves). It's essentially a mystic theurge that is specifically tailored for a druid/arcane combination. It progresses wildshape, combines your familiar and animal companion into a single entity, and has better skills, BAB, and HD. It still has all the trappings of a regular theurge build, and if I recall requires a little longer to enter. I'd say it's roughly equivalent to a mystic theurge but pushes the flavor more and you end up losing less from two classes that put a large focus on their class features (unlike wizard and cleric).
Plus, the flavor is hard to beat. Try looking up the Arcane Hierophant from 3.5, masters of the wild I think. SunsetPsychosis mentioned it earlier, and it's exactly what you're looking for (if your DM approves). It's essentially a mystic theurge that is specifically tailored for a druid/arcane combination. It progresses wildshape, combines your familiar and animal companion into a single entity, and has better skills, BAB, and HD. It still has all the trappings of a regular theurge build, and if I recall requires a little longer to enter. I'd say it's roughly equivalent to a mystic theurge but pushes the flavor more and you end up losing less from two classes that put a large focus on their class features (unlike wizard and cleric).Those aren't bad options. This party is actually one of the few that would actively support the Mystic Theurge. Particularly because you won't have another full caster hanging around showing you what spells you could have had if you'd stayed pure.after reading another thread, I thought Druid/witch MT would be useful in this situation, which is pretty rare. Also, we openly use 3.5 provided it doesnt contradict something going on in PF.
seems like there is an updated PF one
http://rpg.divnull.com/wiki/index.php/Arcane_Hierophant_(Pathfinder)
i am pretty sure he will allow it, so ty!
The hierophant is from Races of the Wild, btw. Generally, I'd say a single-class witch can pull full-time caster duty due to having some normally divine spells (i.e. neutralize poison, heal, raise dead) on its list. A witch with a healing patron and/or the hedge witch archetype should cover most divine caster rolls decently. Sure, she might get a few spells after a full-class cleric would, but so would she as a theurge as well.
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after reading another thread, I thought Druid/witch MT would be useful in this situation, which is pretty rare. Also, we openly use 3.5 provided it doesnt contradict something going on in PF.
holy crap man why didnt you say this in the beginning!!!
then i would roll a sorcerer 3, cleric 3, into mystic theurge, take the healing domain with the feats: spontainous healer (complete divine), and arcane deciple... you will be an unstoppable healing machine MUHAHAHAH!!!
no but seriously all the sorcerer goodness of fireballs and the utility of a cleric, its me favorite healing build.
*got my 3.5 prestige classes screwed up*
If you do go cleric/sorc for theurge don't forget Empyreal (Celestial) bloodline that let's you use Wisdom as your sorc casting stat.
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Theurge is a serious nerfed character in an already-suboptimal party.
Witch is perfect, get some CLW wands to enhance healing and control the battlefield.
If making the power move, Oracle of Heavens with Awesome Display as a gnome pumps out DC 18 Color sprays at 1st level that can take down 6th level monsters, while healing and controlling the battlefield.
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Theurge is a serious nerfed character in an already-suboptimal party.
Witch is perfect, get some CLW wands to enhance healing and control the battlefield.
If making the power move, Oracle of Heavens with Awesome Display as a gnome pumps out DC 18 Color sprays at 1st level that can take down 6th level monsters, while healing and controlling the battlefield.
what you talkin bout williace? it will out heal your oricle and give an insane amount of diversity on the fly. at this point his party dosent need more damage/control, it needs healing and caster buffing/utility
then i would roll a sorcerer 3, cleric 3, into ultimate magus, take the healing domain with the feats: spontainous healer (complete divine), and arcane deciple... you will be an unstoppable healing machine MUHAHAHAH!!!
How is a cleric/sorcerer entering a class that specifically requires and progresses two separate arcane classes?
Ultimate Magus is a right powerful prestige class, but that strength is dulled by the fact that arcane spells have a lot of overlap and you're likely just taking a hit to spell progression for more spells and, later, free metamagic.
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Someone did a breakout of spellcount to prove the theurge has more spells deal is a myth. There is a point it becomes true, but then you're so far behind it's silly.
It will be 9th level before your theurge could cast useful 3rd level spells (haste?), meanwhile the straight classes are casting 5th level spells, and have almost the same spell count.
Meanwhile, this isn't 3.5... clerics and especially wizards (and sorcs) have level dependent powerful abilities that you cut off. The end result ends up feeling like you are a companion levels behind the rest of the team.
It's just a weak setup, I've seen them played. Granted I've never been in a campaign that went beyond 12th in Pathfinder, but for those mid-levels they suck, hardcore.
You can get pretty much that same diversity by playing witches. And Evangilist clerics now do the bardsong thing better than bards, thanks to full spell progression and domains (and the team is already full of skill monkeys).
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Someone did a breakout of spellcount to prove the theurge has more spells deal is a myth. There is a point it becomes true, but then you're so far behind it's silly.
It will be 9th level before your theurge could cast useful 3rd level spells (haste?), meanwhile the straight classes are casting 5th level spells, and have almost the same spell count.
Meanwhile, this isn't 3.5... clerics and especially wizards (and sorcs) have level dependent powerful abilities that you cut off. The end result ends up feeling like you are a companion levels behind the rest of the team.
It's just a weak setup, I've seen them played. Granted I've never been in a campaign that went beyond 12th in Pathfinder, but for those mid-levels they suck, hardcore.
You can get pretty much that same diversity by playing witches. And Evangilist clerics now do the bardsong thing better than bards, thanks to full spell progression and domains (and the team is already full of skill monkeys).
i would agree with you IF you were tying to fulfill a DPR role... but his 4 man group has 3 pure DPR classes, he doesn't need to add to that dps, he needs to keep them up. and giving his caster the abilitity to splurge spells left and right without fear of losing out on his ability to add to damage, if he chooses to, is not under powered at all. i've played this character and had my DM adding extra random encounters to burn off my excess healing spells, at 5th level(15 + channel positive). his exact words were " do you ever ****ing run out of healing?" so i disagree with your POV from my first hand experience. but keep in mind im a "lets down this boss" type not a "i need to top the meeter" type, to put it in WOW terms.
If you do go cleric/sorc for theurge don't forget Empyreal (Celestial) bloodline that let's you use Wisdom as your sorc casting stat.ooo which source is that from? i don't think i've ever seen that before.
I believe it's in Ultimate Magic, but I'm at work and don't have my books handy.
Threadjack over, resume discussion.
Hedge Witch : Patron Healing
Can heal well. Now you have all the major spells needed for this roll. And with spontanus cure you don't have to use spell slots on it after level 4.
Can debuff with the right hexes.
Can control the battle space with the rigth spells.
The real down side is how meny spells per day you get. With filling all of the roles you will be straped on spells per day.
I Second that but, make it a witch Crater, Brew potion as Hex, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Wand, hell maybe Scribe scroll. To cover up some of the healing weakness. It will be about have the right spell at the right time. Utility Scrolls, Peals, Stat Item, Healing Wands and even more utility spells. Healing Hex.
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I have played a MT. It is a wast of time. When you compare it to a single class caster. Yes you have more spells per day but there much lower level. And with casting stats in 3.5 and PF. You will only have one good DC spell list. Over all the MT is lacking in it's ability to be effective at any thing.
The Witch replaces the MT with a class. That dose much more then just cast spells. With the extra power in the form of Hexes. With out playing the price in spell levels. Far better then a MT in so meny ways. Witch will out class any MT you can post of equal level.
A friend of mine played a witch with the caludrn hex, and healing hex. They are good for low level. The problem we ran in to is after level 5. They no longer worked as well. Evil Eye, Fly, Cakle, Misfortune, Slumber. Are all good witch hexes and stay useful as you level up.
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The Witch replaces the MT with a class. That dose much more then just cast spells. With the extra power in the form of Hexes. With out playing the price in spell levels. Far better then a MT in so meny ways. Witch will out class any MT you can post of equal level.
i dont see how you figure that. a cleric alone has a better selection of spells, couple that with a sorcerer's ability to cast utility spells at will. no way a witch can "out class " a MT. you play your class smart and you can be just as useful with lower level spells, as your witch can with 2 spell levels higher (only 1 if you go 4 sorcerer/6 cleric /10 MT)
oh and heaven forbid that you familiar dies
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Hedge Witch 10
Elf
Patron : Healing
Feats:
Spell Penatration, Greater Spell Penatration, Spell Focus Transmutation, Greater Spell Focus Transmutation, Improved Familiar
Hexes :
Evil Eye, Fly, Slumber, Misfortune
Basic Spell List
4(0)
detect magic, light, mending, stabilize
4(1st)
command, enlarge person(2), ray of enfeeblement.
4(2nd)
web(2), pox pustules, spectral hand(for cure spells at range if needed)
3(3rd)
bestow curse, heroism(2)
3(4th)
black tentacles, crushing dispair, dimension door
2(5th)
baleful polymorph, dominate person
What can a Witch at level 10 do a MT can not?
Cast level 4 and 5 spells.
Over come SR with a caster level 14+Int mod for all spells.
Hex the bad guys with evil eye, misfortune, or slumber as needed.
So what can a MT at level 10 do that a Witch can not?
Cast more level 3 and below spells.
Cast arcane and divine spells from scrolls.
Did I miss any thing?
came back to check on thread
see it is lit up
I was debating a MT, but I think a druid the whole way through would work well, random encounters may hurt your if you dont have the right spells prepped I suppose, but you can always run!
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Well, no... I see nothing on your list that a straight-wizard can't cast. So for that odd concept, a wizard will be able to cast your apparently make-or-break spells far faster (wall of stone as a 9th level character, not 12), and have more feats and, if you sum up the number of spells, almost as many.
The issue is there's not a ton of "flexibility" that people think the Theurge brings to the table; the lose the flexibility granted far better by higher level magic. Meanwhile, the straight wizard has higher HP, better BAB for the rays, and level-dependent powers fully online.
The witch may not be able to make your character (the wizard does), but solves the issue of being a controller/healer type.
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Not so hard; HP come from favored class bonus. Only half-elves get it for cleric and wiz, and nobody gets it from theurge. The 2 extra HP from starting a cleric are overtaken @ 5.
BAB works itself out exactly; my fault on the math there. They have the same BAB through all but the highest levels.
Regardless, you're sacrificing a lot for almost no gain; Theurge really needed more powers; it should have been updated to PFS to at least partially keep level-dependent powers / channeling.
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Did I miss any thing?
yes you did.... your healing list.
im not going to list my feats just my spell list, i will show you how wrong you are in this situation.
level 10 MT
cleric 6/ sorcerer/7 (MT3) level 10
now keep in mind ALL of these spells are able to be converted into healing AT WILL
headband of mental ass whoop +4 wisdom +7 modifier
cleric:
5+1
1. santuary x2, obscuring mist x2, divine favor, D CLW
5+1
2. darkness, enthrall x2, restoration lesser, silence D CMW
4+1
3. bestow curse, blindness/defness, D darness, meld into stone, D CSW
socerer:
spells known
1. 5 (8PD)
ray of EF, true strike, E retreat, enlarge person, charm person
2 3 (7PD)
web, H laughter, inviso.
3. 2 (6PD)
hold person, fireball
ok now lets play who is the better healer,in terms of raw healing AND healing based utility i win. in terms of survivability i win again. now i will admit that you have a control aspect that my character does not... but with 3 high damage classes as my front line i dont need to constantly bee wasting my standard actions hexing when i could be melded into stone waiting with E retreat active waiting to assist with my utility. total number of casts per day?
me = 38
you = 20?
are you sure MT dosent have as many spells per day as you???
i can cast a healing spell EVERY OTHER ROUND and still have more utility then you will THEN add channel positive to that and i have the equivalent of over 45 healing spells per day!!!!so PLEASE tell me how in gods name not having acess to 4 and 5th level spells allow me NOT to pull my weight, and then some, in fights.
FYI i didnt even open a book other then the core rule book in making this character. if i sat down and really tweaked him you would cry.
get your head out of your theory crafting ass and get a clue please.
and one more thing, hes giving me access to 3.5 feats. in a pure pathfinder setting you might be correct, but in this instance you are DEAD WRONG.