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Your job as a paladin is to help the helpless escape from the clutches of a great evil.
Your job as a hell knight is to help uphold said evil. There is no investigation. he is a slave. WHY he is a slave is irrelevant, its LEGAL.
There is the rub, slavery is not in and of itself evil. Not good but not evil.
And your Job as a Hellknight is to enforce the Hellknight code. If that slave holder is evil and curel and harming his slaves you can bet he has broken more then one of those codes.
As a Hellknight it is your duty to see his slave returned and see that he to pays for his crimes.
*dons his helmet*
Just so! The Seeker has the right of it.
Debt slavery, and slavery as an implement of empire serve the greater good of all in their way. And though the laws of my Empire do not mandate manumission, Hellknights have stepped in before to correct the excesses of the unjust, even offering manumission to the wronged in some cases. Chattel slavery, in the sense you describe, is little more than theft. There is no justice in that. Many are the slaveholders that must answer for the history and condition of the people pledged to them.
But you err, Norse Wolf. Those that are 'helpless' ought be enslaved. We face a moral imperative to enslave them.
You speak highly of the virtues of savage, disordered kingdoms. More food, you claim, for men grow their own crops! More security, for men are permitted to keep weapons! In brief, I will describe the lives of peoples without Law: nasty, brutish and short. The people of Cheliax are more numerous and greater than the savages from afar. They are not butchered by bugbears in the night. They need not fear the dark. They may walk the streets with the reasonable guarantee of safety. How is this? Not the patronage of devils nor the armies of Thrune. The strength of Discipline. The protection of Order. When a Hellknight instructs, people listen and better themselves. The threat of retribution forces the lords and temples to reign in their excesses.
By what logic and reason can you look on a world populated by dragons and giants, cannibals and ghouls, all the myriad of evils that exist to part a man from his life and peace, and yet cling to abstract and baseless notions of good? A myth of justice and Good without Order? Hear me, there is one truth: the only safeguard of men is power, the strength to impose Order on this world. In the absence of this Order, only violence upon violence, civil war and chaos. The worst aspects of humanity allowed to run rampant and all must pay the price.
The helpless cannot help themselves. They lack the strength of body, mind or will to embrace or understand Order. Do you liberate children because they are slaves to their parents? It is the same.
How long will this take? At the thought of millenia of work ahead, you despair. How feeble, then, the will of the Chaotic savage. How fleeting your focus. I would say, since you are no paladin Norse Wolf, that we have nothing more to discuss and that my scourge is likely to fall on those more wicked long before it finds you.
If I understand you correctly, there are two important core beliefs at the heart of the Hellknight Orders.
Concepts of duty, honor, and truthfulness are not part of “human/dwarven/elven/etc” nature, that such beings are basically foolish and despicable, and that must order be forcibly imposed for the “benefit” of such creatures.
Lawful Society is extremely fragile and weak. For order to survive, all must be enslaved to some (any?) code of law. Obedience must be compelled by any means necessary.
So the Paladin Hellknight, regardless of his/her personal actions, is not enforcing justice and promoting general safety, but instead he/she working to create a state of “universal enslavement.”Does anyone else see a problem with this?
You have been too long in the dark. You see the light of truth but cringe as it burns your eyes.
Universal slavery. Slavery, each of us one to another, that is a remarkable description. I endorse it. What else does one call obligation to Justice? When one has done wrongly, reneged on their word or transgressed than we are each of us impelled to take action. Every man a tyrant is as much a statement of my own duties as a Hellknight as the duties of every man, woman and child. Create Order, that Good might follow.
Ethics and Morality, by any other name, are the restriction of self-indulgence and wantonness. They are the chains we don to better ourselves. When you give your word, you bolt a lock, on yourself and on another. Every law, contract, promise, code and tradition is the same, a reflection of the greater principle of Law.
To change the nature of man, overcome the temptations and weaknesses and take power for ourselves ... can there be a greater good?
No, I see no problem with this. Some laws and codes cease to be useful, yes, and become perverted. We know them by their failure to create justice. But the Chain and the Measure remind us that justice is not Good, but rather its precondition. And you would do well to realize that.
*removes his helmet*
I hope I am also expressing the degree to which I think a degree of cultural relativism is essential to understanding the Hellknight outlook. The church of Aroden had, in the eyes of the founder and his disciples, failed the world and humanity. It gave shelter to demons thanks to lying tongues, and Aroden's weakness (whatever that was) somehow led to his death which plunged Cheliax into decades of brutal civil war.
The Hellknights represent to Cheliax authority separate from and held to a greater standard than the soldiers of the empire and the retainers of the lords, and so they are, within Cheliax, very much the people's heroes. And from what I understand of the setting, the "civilized" states of the Inner Sea understand the rest of Avistan and Garund as wild, savage places where people vie in every moment with horrible dangers just to survive. The truth may very well be that some kingdoms enjoy greater standards of living and fewer crimes than Egorian or Westcrown, but those are viewed as exceptions, not the rule. Proof of concept, that lawful, organized and even tyrannized places are the right way to go.
As for slavery, I am still not sure we've gotten a clear picture of the whole institution of slavery across all of Cheliax. My Hellknight character above believes in the rightness of a very Roman system of slavery, mostly because (though he doesn't have the vocabulary for it) he believes that social advancement is an appropriate social safety net that protects the social order and that the accumulation of disenfranchised people at the bottom of the social order creates perverse incentives for the slaveowners to exploit and abuse and thus incentives for the slaves to rise up and use violence to improve their lot.
If I were playing a LE Hellknight Inquisitor instead of a LG Hellknight Paladin, he might employ the same arguments but spin things to justify HIS PERSONAL accumulation of wealth and slaves, and no doubt his approach to 'cruelty', 'pain' and 'discipline' would be less rigid and more self-serving than the LG Hellknight Paladin's own. The LE type would probably return slaves to their owners in ALL cases order to protect the status quo because that status quo benefits him, while the LG type would be more circumspect and concerned with determining who is most to blame for the present disruption of Order so he can best correct things.
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I've been following this thread with great interest (especially Kegluneq's in character posts as a paladin/Hellknight, which are just awesome to read, btw).
I love paladins. They are probably my favorite class to play. A paladin is never above the law, but works within it to the best of their ability. Now, there are those paladins that err on the side of law, just as those that err more on the side of good. Of course, there are those that try to strike the proper balance between the two.
Alot of what I'm seeing here are paladins that would err on the side of Good, but a Hellknight does no such thing (and a Hellknight paladin especially would not). A Hellknght (especially a Hellknight paladin) would err on the side of Law with the goal being that the greater good is being accomplished. This is due to The Measure and The Chain.
The Measure (which covers dozens of volumes)is a listing of crimes, highly specific, and described in detail. There is no punishment listed for these crimes by the way, just 'cold, unquestionable reasoning for castigation.' Many Hellknights carry their own abridged versions with them wherever they go.
The Chain is the discipline that binds the very heart of the Hellknights. It concerns itself with three virtues, order, discipline, and mercilessness, each divided into twin dictates. They govern every aspect of a Hellknight's life - personal, societal, and practical.
Order - The thing a Hellknight strives for above all else. For it is through Order that they see a world without want, without waste, and without fear. With everything they do, Hellknights try to reorder the world into a society that is tame, precise, and civilized.
The first dictate here is Obsolescence. The Hellknights look to a time when they are no longer needed because society will at that time be able to police itself without any help from the order. They are working toward a day in which they are no longer needed.
The second dictate is Every Man a Tyrant. Hellknights believe that every man must claim the right to exact law upon the land, not just the Hellknights themselves. That all must enforce order, and if need be, punishment, when it is necessary.
Discipline - This is the core of the Hellknight. Through discipline, one is best able to bring order. Without it, no injustice can be made right. And before justice can be brought to the world, the Hellknight must first conquer themselves.
The first dictate of Discipline is 'Emotion Is Weakness.' Emotion stands in the way of logical thought and decision making. There is no place for sentiment in the heart and mind of a Hellknight.
The second dictate, Execution by Flame, is not as straight forward as that statement seems. It is the concept that anything worth doing requires sacrifice. That by casting away something, one can become greater. It is interesting to note here that there is specific mention of facing the flames of Hell, as every Hellknight must do at some point. For in doing so they either will lose their fear. Or their lives.
Mercilessness - The law through which the Hellknight strives to achieve their vision. It is not an allowance for cruelty as one may think from seeing the word itself. Rather it is a demand for controlled, decisive, and severe action in all things. There can be no regret, no pity, no leniency once judgment is made. None are above reprimand
The dictate, Society Cannot Survive Mercy, is an interesting one. The Hellknight knows they will encounter legitimate excuses or reasons in the course of their work. But the law must apply equally to all. There can be no exceptions, for to allow them is to mire society with chaos. Criminals are punished for their crimes, not for their intentions.
None Are Innocent, the second dictate, puts forth that none are above reproach in the application of the law. Even the Hellknights themselves must answer for any sins and misdeeds they have done.
Many would-be Hellknights (and just as many armigers lacking the necessary mental or physical fortitude) are crushed under weight of this burden. The greatest test of a Hellknight comes when they're face to face with devils summoned from Hell's very depths. For it is through these confrontations that that the realities of existence are truly discovered, that The Measure and The Chain are truly tested. To survive is to come away validated.
A Hellknight paladin would be a great force for Order, and for Good. For in following the Chain, they have the tools to objectively, without emotional attachment, function in the both in society and in the wild. I've seen it said that Dr. Martin Luther King would make a great paladin. Perhaps. I think an even better example would be Mr. Spock from Star Trek, especially as seen in the earlier movies. Spock, specifically the one from Wrath of Khan, would have made not only an awesome paladin, but an equally awesome Hellknight paladin. 'The needs of the many outweigh those of the few, or the one.' That is what a Hellknight paladin would say before sacrificing themselves in the manner that Spock did.
I can get behind a Hellknight paladin. The name might frighten me a little, but once I understood what they were about, I don't think that I would have a problem with one at all. In fact, I'm looking to test my group of players (specifically the Holy Gun paladin) with the appearance of a Hellknight in my campaign. He's heard the horror stories about Hellknights and so will be in for a surprise when he actually encounters one that is not only a Hellknight, but a paladin as well.
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I am still waiting for anyone to explain why the paladin has to be concerned about the law of the land at all, anymore than a LE assassins guild does.
*dons his helmet*
As am I. Disorder anywhere lessens us all. Improper laws are better than chaos, though the difference is slim.
*removes his helmet*
I've been following this thread with great interest (especially Kegluneq's in character posts as a paladin/Hellknight, which are just awesome to read, btw).
I love paladins. They ... *snip snip snip * ...
Glad to hear it! It is always pleasant to be validated when one is engaged in something potentially silly.
Some useful reference for my approach.
Spock's utilitarianism is a good criterion for action for just about any paladin. And, in fact, I think it would be useful to construct a list of criteria for paladins to fall back on when faced with their own moral/ethical conflicts. Because far, far too many paladin alignment discussions fall apart into restatement of different values and volley after volley of opinions regarding whether a paladin should 'fall' in any given conflict. Heck, we could even divide them up by region, religion or nationality to suggest the character of paladins in different places on Golarion. For instance, I suspect that a Keleshite paladin from Qadira would approach most quandaries differently than your typical Chellish paladin.
Now, if Spock had some scary armor ...
Oh, also:
*dons his helmet*
This one has learned well.
But Holy Gun is still just awful. Just awful.
*removes his helmet, shaking his head in shame at the other paladin*
I am still waiting for anyone to explain why the paladin has to be concerned about the law of the land at all, anymore than a LE assassins guild does.
If you had read the paladin code you would not have to ask this.
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There is the rub, slavery is not in and of itself evil. Not good but not evil.
Your job as a paladin is to help the helpless escape from the clutches of a great evil.
Your job as a hell knight is to help uphold said evil. There is no investigation. he is a slave. WHY he is a slave is irrelevant, its LEGAL.
However, Gods of Good seem to take a very dim view of it (to say the least).
See for example this excerpt of the Bestiary (page 168) : "buying or forcibly domesticating intelligent creatures like griffons is still recognized as slavery by most good deities", which strongly implies that said good deities do not like slavery one bit.
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However, Gods of Good seem to take a very dim view of it (to say the least).
See for example this excerpt of the Bestiary (page 168) : "buying or forcibly domesticating intelligent creatures like griffons is still recognized as slavery by most good deities", which strongly implies that said good deities do not like slavery one bit.
*dons his helmet*
I have awaited this reasoning.
Tell me, which of the gods names himself patron of animal husbandry and domestication? Erastil, patron of hunting and farming, often holds that distinction. Lawful and Good, a patron of acts and community before civilization but a fine patron nonetheless.
Does Erastil count a cow upon a farm as a slave?
I have known many a paladin and soldier who returned home to their farm when their weapons were no longer needed, but never have I met one who suffered Erastil's wrath for the 'imprisonment' or 'murder' of livestock. Where, then, does Erastil's patience end? One cow? Two? A hundred? Would it be different if the farmer kept swine? Or sheep? Why, then, should Erastil frown on the keeping of men? As a patron of family, his priests teach that children are to be disciplined and taught well until they are capable of confronting the world on their own. So it is with the holding of slaves.
You seem to believe that slavery and humanity are incompatible. But this is not so: chattel, brutal slavery and dignity are incompatible because of the brutality and wrongdoing of the slave-holder. Obligations extend both ways.
It boils my blood to see Andoran cities decry slavery only to demand "community service" from those who cannot pay their taxes or have given some minor offense. Revolting hypocrisy. It is all I can do to remember Mercilessness and Discipline and remain unmoved.
*removes his helmet*
There is the rub, slavery is not in and of itself evil. Not good but not evil.
Slavery is an evil. Indentured servitude is not. Debt slavery might or might not be.
And your Job as a Hellknight is to enforce the Hellknight code. If that slave holder is evil and curel and harming his slaves you can bet he has broken more then one of those codes.
I'm sure there's enough leeway there for a "reasonable" number of lashes from a whip for attempting to steal your own person, all in the cause of better instruction.
Unless the slave owner can put his field next to the river lands, post no guards and use no chains holding people against their will is evil.
As a Hellknight it is your duty to see his slave returned and see that he to pays for his crimes.
Ok, you're a paladin in andor. 3 o clock in the morning a half starved half naked halfling girl runs into your camp, covered in mud. She cries "Help! This man kidnapped me from my village when i was 10 and forced me to work 18 hours a day with no pay at his castle!" Your priests neigh infallible judgement, and his detect lies spell confirm she is speaking the truth. Is there any doubt that a paladin, or any good hearted adventurer, should leap into action to defend her and help her keep her freedom?
Now, in terms of GOOD, what changes when you're in Cheliax? 3 o clock in the morning a half starved half naked halfling girl runs into your camp, covered in mud. She cries "Help! This man kidnapped me from my village when i was 10 and forced me to work 18 hours a day with no pay at his castle and he had a halfling hunting license!" Your priests neigh infallible judgement, and his detect lies spell confirm she is speaking the truth. Is there any doubt that a paladin, or any good hearted adventurer, should leap into action to defend her and help her keep her freedom?
Debt slavery, and slavery as an implement of empire serve the greater good of all in their way. And though the laws of my Empire do not mandate manumission, Hellknights have stepped in before to correct the excesses of the unjust, even offering manumission to the wronged in some cases.
And why are these people falling into such debt? Because those that control the land and those that demand more marble palaces deliberately take more from the people then they have, so men's options are to see their children go hungry or to sell themselves into service. That is no choice at all.
Chattel slavery, in the sense you describe, is little more than theft. There is no justice in that. Many are the slaveholders that must answer for the history and condition of the people pledged to them.
And the hell knights have much to answer for in supporting it. When the blood flows down the lashes of the slavers some of it flows onto your hands. The slaves are kept in place more often by the threat of being hunted down and given "justice" by YOU than by iron chains. Slave owners are free to mistreat their slaves because they know that their slaves cannot leave, thanks to your ilk securing the countryside.
You speak highly of the virtues of savage, disordered kingdoms. More food, you claim, for men grow their own crops! More security, for men are permitted to keep weapons! In brief, I will describe the lives of peoples without Law: nasty, brutish and short.
Try living there. Our men grow tall and strong, our women buxom and fertile, and our lives, while full of good, honest, hard work, do not lack for joy and celebration.
The people of Cheliax are more numerous and greater than the savages from afar.
Perhaps that has less to do with your greatness and more to do with your penchant for killing said "savages" and stealing their land. But hey, its not murder when you have a commission from the army.
They are not butchered by bugbears in the night. They need not fear the dark. They may walk the streets with the reasonable guarantee of safety. How is this? Not the patronage of devils nor the armies of Thrune. The strength of Discipline.
Of course not. They're butchered on schedule at dawn in full view of the populace. If your people are so safe, why are so few of them smiling?
The protection of Order. When a Hellknight instructs, people listen and better themselves....
Or else. True leadership comes from the heart and the light within, not the end of a lance.
Creative Director
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I always find it amusing how people come with their modern mindsets, based on Kant, Great French Revolution, US Constitution, slavery abolition, universal suffrage, human rights, racial and gender equality on something that's supposed to vaguely resemble Medieval Europe.
I always find it amusing when people assume that a fantasy RPG is automatically supposed to vaguely resemble Medieval Europe, even though most fantasy RPG settings specifically include things that were NOT part of Medieval Europe. Like magic. Or gender equality. Or modern philosophical teachings or politics. Or, going the other direction, taking inspiration from the ancient world like Rome, Egypt, or even mythological ancient lands like Atlantis.
Golarion, in other words, is as meant as much to be an alternate modern day as it is an alternate medieval europe and an alternate ancient Egypt.
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I always find it amusing how people come with their modern mindsets, based on Kant, Great French Revolution, US Constitution, slavery abolition, universal suffrage, human rights, racial and gender equality on something that's supposed to vaguely resemble Medieval Europe.I always find it amusing when people assume that a fantasy RPG is automatically supposed to vaguely resemble Medieval Europe, even though most fantasy RPG settings specifically include things that were NOT part of Medieval Europe. Like magic. Or gender equality. Or modern philosophical teachings or politics. Or, going the other direction, taking inspiration from the ancient world like Rome, Egypt, or even mythological ancient lands like Atlantis.
Golarion, in other words, is as meant as much to be an alternate modern day as it is an alternate medieval europe and an alternate ancient Egypt.
I have to disagree. If we have widely accepted slavery and democracy is a revolutionary new introduction limited to one country, we're at very best in the XIX century. Maybe.
And the concept of every being having rights and freedoms that originate in the being itself, not in someone's else's political will, is way out of the zone. Else it's all gonna fall apart, from the criminal law to economy and everything inbetween.
Ok, you're a paladin in andor. 3 o clock in the morning a half starved half naked halfling girl runs into your camp, covered in mud. She cries "Help! This man kidnapped me from my village when i was 10 and forced me to work 18 hours a day with no pay at his castle!" Your priests neigh infallible judgement, and his detect lies spell confirm she is speaking the truth. Is there any doubt that a paladin, or any good hearted adventurer, should leap into action to defend her and help her keep her freedom?
So wait, you mean she was kept in your company and the truth of the matter investigated (Handy you had a cleric around) and when it was found that the Halfling had no case to answer you offered her the protection of the Law?
Congrats, you did exactly what I said you should be doing as a LG Paladin/HK.
I must say I am delighted with your move from your original position of simply aiding and abetting in the commisssion of a crime without even considering all the facts of the case.
As no one has heard of a 'Halfling Hunting Licence' it is reasonable to assume this is a trumped up mummery, and that the matter will need investigating as a potential Kidnapping charge. There might even be a few frauds to uncover!
Huzzah for law and order, and the power of good.
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I must now say this
"who are you?"
And
"What do you want?"
huh...
I think I'm missing something.
It was a Babylon 5 reference, ElyasRavenwood got it. The main plot revolves around millions of year old races who try to uplift younger races with two very different views on how to do so.
Order vs Chaos. The Volons ask "who are you" the shadows just asked "what do you want"
A fun note the order of the stick website "Giants in the playground" is also a b5 reference
And yes ElyasRavenwood I liked crusade myself, a pity it never lasted.I really wish the show got have the love trek seems to, a real pity.
Chuck if you have never watched B5 you really should. Such a fine sci-fi show. And when the plot starts to come together you notice it hard, all those small things from the earlier sesions that you never put together. One of those rare "Oh crap" moments.
Seeker for shadowlight, while listening to some of Strazinsky's comentary, while watching Crusade on DVD, he mentioned a few very interesting things.
Strazinsky mentioned that one of his sources of inspiration was role playing games....Then i realized in the cast there was a mage, a thief, a warrior namely Captain Gideon who's name i think means great warrior, and it may be a streatch, a Priest..the John Matheson character, a telepath, was dropping pearls of wisdom for Captain Gideon left and right.
Also initially i thought the lighting or rather the colors were off in a few episodes....then strazinsky mentioned he had consulted with Nasa scientists, and asked them how things should look on a planet with a reddish star, or a blue green star etc...oh and i noticed when they were on a planet with a binary star, people had two shadows.....(must be the photographer in me curious about how things are lit)
I heard the nasa scientists liked the Starfury design...and i think Strazinsky gave it to them, under the condition that when Nasa builds one, they called it a Star fury.
Sorry for the side rant.
So wait, you mean she was kept in your company and the truth of the matter investigated (Handy you had a cleric around)
Yes, go figure at the absurdity of an adventuring PC having a party with him, especially a member of one of he other 4 traditional food groups.
Does everyone that disagrees with you have to do so through dishonesty or ignorance?
and when it was found that the Halfling had no case to answer you offered her the protection of the Law?
Congrats, you did exactly what I said you should be doing as a LG Paladin/HK.
Here's the problem for a Paladin/HK. What you do you do next if you're standing in Cheliax and the halfling is the lawful property of the person she's running from? You seem to be going out of your way to avoid the possibility of evil laws in a kingdom being run from the shadows by devils. Actually you can forget the shadows part they're flat out running the country.
In other words, verifying the story isn't going to relieve the contradiction. Now what?
I must say I am delighted with your move from your original position of simply aiding and abetting in the commisssion of a crime without even considering all the facts of the case.
I'm closing your what if loopholes in the hopes that you'll stop dancing around the loopholes and answer the question you're working so hard to avoid.
As no one has heard of a 'Halfling Hunting Licence' it is reasonable to assume this is a trumped up mummery, and that the matter will need investigating as a potential Kidnapping charge. There might even be a few frauds to uncover!
For the love of... Look, they are halfling SLAVES. They are not criminals. They are not indentured servants. They are not any other word you would like to apply to them in order to avoid the conflict between ethics and morality. They are slaves. They came from somewhere. That means either enslaving successive generations and/or catching new ones. That means that it either was, or more likely IS legal to catch them.
From someone quoting the guide to absolom
Sadly, those efforts to prohibit slavery inevitably led to reduced trade through the city, and often saw a rise in slave traders making midnight raids within Absalom itself to cart off exotic travelers from other lands.
So yes, some people do run around catching other people and turning them into someone elses legal property. It is not trumped up mummery its Business.
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I always find it amusing how people come with their modern mindsets, based on Kant, Great French Revolution, US Constitution, slavery abolition, universal suffrage, human rights, racial and gender equality on something that's supposed to vaguely resemble Medieval Europe.I always find it amusing when people assume that a fantasy RPG is automatically supposed to vaguely resemble Medieval Europe, even though most fantasy RPG settings specifically include things that were NOT part of Medieval Europe. Like magic. Or gender equality. Or modern philosophical teachings or politics. Or, going the other direction, taking inspiration from the ancient world like Rome, Egypt, or even mythological ancient lands like Atlantis.
Golarion, in other words, is as meant as much to be an alternate modern day as it is an alternate medieval europe and an alternate ancient Egypt.
I have to disagree. If we have widely accepted slavery and democracy is a revolutionary new introduction limited to one country, we're at very best in the XIX century. Maybe.
And the concept of every being having rights and freedoms that originate in the being itself, not in someone's else's political will, is way out of the zone. Else it's all gonna fall apart, from the criminal law to economy and everything inbetween.
*dons his helmet*
Only Iomedae's cult is foolish enough to espouse some inherent dignity or value to human nature itself. And even she sees fit to support the Hellknight Orders. She is a warrior goddess, and acknowledges that there is nothing Good in this world that is not bled for.
*removes his helmet*
Put another way,
The technology level portrayed throughout the setting, with primitive guns sharing space with plate mail, rapiers, blue-water sailing ships and crossbows, constantly makes me think late 1500's, and Cheliax just endured a massive civil war. I think Hobbes is about right.
Now, if someone started waving the Constitution of May 3, 1791 about and decrying the effects of the Liberum Veto, I would raise an eyebrow. But the beginnings of true nationalism are all over the setting, from the pride and self-confidence of Cheliax to the revolutionary spirit of Andoran, the superior attitude of Taldor and the lingering Kelish presence in Quadira. The birth of modern political theory in Golarion cannot be far behind.
Though, like most things in the setting, it will likely be crushed swiftly, go extinct, and then have to be reinvented. All it would take is another Tar-Baphon, Spawn of Rovagug or wide-reaching cult of the Old Ones. Plenty of those. And that is something I like about the setting; the roll of ages makes it seem like evil and chaos have achieved some very real victories in turning back the march of progress.
... snip snip snip many awesome things ...
*dons his helmet*
Hah! Let it not be said you barbarians do not have a sense of humor.
Your people grow tall ... if they survive. You are constantly surrounded by brutality and death. The winters alone steal your crops and livelihoods. Come live in the south, and you will see happiness enough. Your brain may even thaw enough to make some sense of your surroundings.
Hrmph.
*removes his helmet*
Andoran seems to be actually the only true nationalism in the setting.
Cheliax is definitely racial, ties of blood and race. Not human= inferior. Not human Chelian, inferior. That is standard fare for devil-worshippers and LE, the whole 'inferior races/others' argument.Cheliax is all about human Chelian racial supremacy over EVERYTHING.
Taldor is definitely along racial lines. Taldorans are a distinct bloodline. It's why their empire is slowly shrinking...where bloodlines mix, their empire crumbles. It doesn't have a unifying element outside Taldorans themselves. Also human racist, but older and lacking vigor.
Andoran has no defined racial type, and is based upon equality. While having a lot of Chelian blood, there's a lot of others mixed in, and none of it is held against others.
You could say Galt is about nationalism, but there's no consistency to it except rapid turnover. Seriously, when are they going to realize its the guillotines doing this to them and break them?
In short, nationalism has to transcend race to be real, and only in Andoran are we really seeing that.
==Aelryinth
*dons his helmet*
Hah! Let it not be said you barbarians do not have a sense of humor.
Your people grow tall ... if they survive. You are constantly surrounded by brutality and death. The winters alone steal your crops and livelihoods. Come live in the south, and you will see happiness enough. Your brain may even thaw enough to make some sense of your surroundings.
Hrmph.
*removes his helmet*
Your people grow short, and stooped...if they survive their plagues and famine and the cruelty and wars of those who call themselves their rulers.
They are constantly surrounded by brutality, pain, and death,inflicted by those who call themselves their rulers, with hopes crushed and dreams denied fervently. The summers bake them to death and starve them in their own fields, driving them to kill or be killed in turn.
Come live in the north, and you will know the happiness of work done with your own hands staying with you, no oaf with an axe denying you the right to defend yourself while stealing food from your family. Your brain may even cool enough to be released from its fever-dreams, and see and appreciate the beauty of the world around you.
Har!
So no one can give an arguement about why the Paladin has to care one wit about the Law of th Land or why laws which are Evil would bind him at all?
Not a single arguement.
Interesting.
We can't argue with that as,You refuse to except any government you dislike as legit. So you are CG calling yourself LG. Ignoring laws you disagree with. That is a violation of the code.
If a government is legit you must respect it's laws, and guess what you do not get to make the call on if it is legit. When you start making those calls you are acting more Chaotic then lawful.
In the example we have been using Chelix is a legit government, it is excepted as such and is known as such. Saying it's laws do not count for you is ignore legitimate authority because you want to.
So no one can give an argument about why the Paladin has to care one wit about the Law of the Land...
Well, there's this...
The seeds of the Red Revolution were sown when House Thrune rose to power in Cheliax. The poet Darl Jubannich issued the broadsheet series On Government, which used Thrune practices as the foundation from which to undermine the basic principle of the divine right of kings. The half-elf philosopher Hosetter took things even further: his Imperial Betrayal urged the common folk to take up arms to defend their shared ideals. These fiery words spread swiftly across the land, and the tales of Queen Abrogail's cruelty only added fuel to the flames. Dissent soon burst into rebellion, and rebellion into full revolt...
The love of life that once characterized Galt became an endless thirst for blood...
The Red Revolution has held the land in its grip for more than 40 years, and it shows no signs of ending...
Galt has seen more than a dozen governments rise and fall since Hosetter's death, and all they have shared is bloodshed, chaos, and eventual collapse... its people are driven by paranoia, fury, and a bitter refusal to recognize the cause of their troubles...
Is this the end you would seek?
*Emphasis mine.
So no one can give an arguement about why the Paladin has to care one wit about the Law of th Land or why laws which are Evil would bind him at all?
Not a single arguement.
Interesting.
I can: While a Paladin is both Lawful and Good, his choices are rarely so simple a matter as doing whatever seems Good in the most immediate, short term sense, RIGHT NOW.
A paladin's sense of Law and Good must by synergistic. More plainly, the Paladin's Good must temper his sense of Law with mercy. Conversely, his sense of Law must temper his sense of righteous zeal with common sense.
A paladin must think long term and short term. He must weigh each option carefully and decide what will best serve his ideals in the overall. A paladin who thinks only of the now, who never takes the greater picture into consideration, is a rash man. Rash men, in worlds like Golarion, do not live long, and are rarely effective at serving their causes.
A paladin with two brain cells to rub together does not just go around defying every wicked law that he encounters, because this is not only exceedingly arrogant, it is not intelligent. It is also not automatically Good.
Killing a man without provocation, just because he has an evil alignment, is not by definition, Good.
Attacking legitimate authority simply because it is Evil, is not, by definition, a Lawful Good act.
Authority does not need to be LG to be cosmically legitimate.
Paladins must temper their righteous zeal with discretion and common sense.
That is why they must at least pay attention to the laws of the lands through which they travel.
A dead idiot saves no-one.
Does everyone that disagrees with you have to do so through dishonesty or ignorance?
It appears so, unfortunately.
and when it was found that the Halfling had no case to answer you offered her the protection of the Law?
Congrats, you did exactly what I said you should be doing as a LG Paladin/HK.
Here's the problem for a Paladin/HK. What you do you do next if you're standing in Cheliax and the halfling is the lawful property of the person she's running from? You seem to be going out of your way to avoid the possibility of evil laws in a kingdom being run from the shadows by devils. Actually you can forget the shadows part they're flat out running the country.
Not really, you had to even invent a new 'Halfling Hunting Licence' in order to give creedence to your scenario. Where is such said license written up anywhere? It isn't, in which case the 'rescuer' would be bound to help the Halfling both as a Paladin AND a Hellknight.
On the other hand if the Halfling had legally been made a slave through unpaid debts or other breeches of social contract, then the Paladin would be bound to honour the judgment passed via fair trial and return the slave, unless of course it was asserted the Slave owner had indeed been breaking other laws. It is, after all, an LE society, not an NE or a CE society - the simple seizure and capturing of slaves and deprivation of liberty through force of arms is not an LE activity.
I'm closing your what if loopholes in the hopes that you'll stop dancing around the loopholes and answer the question you're working so hard to avoid.
As above. By inventing fictional clauses and one offs?
No, they aren't aginst all forms of 'slavery', as that word covers an entire plethora of indentured servitude, whether by and for the State or otherwise. The only way you could give weight to your argument was to simply declare that all slaves were kidnapped, which is patently false.So what is the question being avoided?
You have asserted that in the case of 'rescuing a slave' you were happy to just aid and abet that escape. Full stop. You have only added an investigatory period after I pointed out the notion.
So once you work out that the 'Slave' is in fact a Slave because they failed to repay their debts to the Landowner who now has title to them, well what then?
If the Paladin feels so strongly about the matter then it is up to them to work to change the laws, petition magistrates etc.
It is not their job to decide what sentences are fit and proper and simply do as they please and act without due legal process - they are not a law unto themselves able to act as their own personal fancies dictate.
So general consensus makes it Legitimate? Thats your standard? What makes a government legitimate? It seems to me anyone who can conquer and area then becomes legitimate, THAT is a chaotic attitude.
So then what makes any Government legitimate? Why can't someone simply opt out? what model is 'ok'?
So no one can give an arguement about why the Paladin has to care one wit about the Law of th Land or why laws which are Evil would bind him at all?
Not a single arguement.
Interesting.
See my post above Shifty's. There are entirely morally legitimate reasons for a Paladin to not go around overtly defying every law or government that acts in an evil fashion. Discretion is the better part of valor. Pick your battles. Act with intelligence.
So I ask again, would a paladin be required to enforce an evil law?
No. But there's a vast divide between "Actively enforcing" and "Not Directly and immediately opposing in the most obvious of ways."
Paladins can be subtle. The good ones understand this.
Would he be required to execute the child who stole bread for his starving siblings?
A paladin who can't find the middle ground here is doing it wrong, and is a good candidate for complete idiot.
Regardless, any King is a King due to the fact that at some time their Kingdom was carved out with steel, and that he remains a King is due to his capacity to do it again.
Sure they may 'grow' benevolent, but Kings were never elected.
Is this the end you would seek?Chaos can be brought to order, by the sword if needed, but corrupted order is a bane which can almost never be rooted out, because it masqurades as Justice, when it defiles that words holiness.
Only A Orderly AND Just society is worthy of the name civilization, all others are false, all others must eventually be made to bend or break.
So the answer to my question is "Yes"? You would see Cheliax awash in an endless tide of blood? You would turn common citizens into bloodthirsty murderers? You would have the Final Blades deliver their soul-stealing "justice" upon all those accused of being Thrune sympathizers?
You read the words, but you do not understand the lesson of Galt, and its Red Revolution. I do not think that it is my Paladin-hood that is in danger...
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Andoran seems to be actually the only true nationalism in the setting.
...
In short, nationalism has to transcend race to be real, and only in Andoran are we really seeing that.
==Aelryinth
So ... no. You do not appear to understand the nature of nationalism or how the concept of a nation relates to the concept of a race. And if you need some more validation look to -- and I know you hate trusting the words of the writers -- page 4 of Cheliax, Empire of Devils for a citation of the words "nationalism" and "patriotism" applied to Cheliax. Furthermore, social contract theory has, apparently, broken some ground in Cheliax. Probably Asmodeus' influence.
*dons his helmet*
Andorans are distinct from Chelish and Taldan stock. You can identify them by the stink of idealism about them, and the lucid phantasmagoria before their eyes just as they stab you in the back.
Some history then, for the revolutionaries and delusional savages who think five cows and a few spare bushels of wheat constitute wealth and plenty.
Long ago, the Last Azlant turned the savage princes of Taldor into a civilized people. The noble Chelish blood sprung from peoples conquered and civilized by the Taldan Empire at its height, and when they faltered it was Aspex the Even-Tongued who recognized the true spirit of Aroden's people in Cheliax and so made it the greatest empire on Golarion. Cheliax was to cover the whole of the world, every race and creed brought in and granted citizenship in time, so Aroden could return once more to claim the crown and usher in a new age of peace and justice. This was the Starfall Doctrine. It was the legacy, the destiny of our Empire, the thing that drove us onward.
Then Aroden fell. And all of Cheliax's enemies emerged to take from us everything we had fought and labored so long to produce. Cheliax built the roads, the walls, the keeps, the canals and the aquaducts that benefited all, but no loyalty was returned for these gifts.
Can you imagine? The gall of it. Noble houses without their divine patron suddenly adrift. Member nations driven to rebellion and uprising by their own greedy local lords. Treasuries of rightfully collected taxes pillaged by mobs and mercenaries. Civil war is the most terrible of sorts of war. Worse still when greater than half the country no longer acknowledges themselves to be Cheliaxian and holds those that do hostage to abuse at their whim.
Two pillars held the house of Cheliax upright in those times. My father's father fought for the House of Thrune, one of the only noble houses willing to face the ultimate danger in order to save our people. Thrune preserved the empire by the creation of a new Imperial State. Thus the house of Thrune is the heart of the Chelish people, the embodiment of its spirit. Our destiny today remains clear, even though the god prophesied to lead us has fallen.
The second pillar was the Hellknight Orders, the soul of the Chelish people. It was the Hellknights that turned the tide. And Hellknights fought Hellknights, for the path forward was not clear, and truth could only be found in violence. But as with the House of Thrune, the strength of the Hellknights comes from within, from a willingness to face the destruction of the soul in pursuit of the power to do what must be done. For the good of all.
The day that a monarch of Thrune loses that fight and becomes a slave to Hell, the Hellknights stand ready to cut her down. We alone exist apart from the social order, given special dispensation to act as we deem fit. And so it is that we come to the crowded tenements, the distant villages, the secluded courts of corrupt nobles, justice on our lips and upon our swords. We have control. We keep you safe. We are your hope.
Today, the vast majority of Cheliax, my home, remains as it was. The average craftsman or serf never sees a devil. Priests of Iomedae and Asmodeus mingle and exchange ideas, though that image might surprise the stupid and reactionary. There is peace, and there is prosperity, and there are protections for each class codified under the law. It is true, the Inquisitors and Hellknights often play a role in purging enemies of the state. More often than not, they are fined and returned to their homes, or sentenced to term-slavery until they have learned not to embrace seditious ideas.
If you doubt my words, you will find our histories recorded within the archives of Egorian. Daily, our scholars plumb the remaining records in order to piece together our past, and a new history is printed every third month to ensure the people are educated. If some archives are prohibited or stricken, it is only because we do not yet possess a full enough picture and cannot tolerate the dissemination of further damaging lies or senseless speculation.
Your people grow short, and stooped...if they survive their plagues and famine and the cruelty and wars of those who call themselves their rulers.
They are constantly surrounded by brutality, pain, and death,inflicted by those who call themselves their rulers, with hopes crushed and dreams denied fervently. The summers bake them to death and starve them in their own fields, driving them to kill or be killed in turn.Come live in the north, and you will know the happiness of work done with your own hands staying with you, no oaf with an axe denying you the right to defend yourself while stealing food from your family. Your brain may even cool enough to be released from its fever-dreams, and see and appreciate the beauty of the world around you.
Har!
You have already proven yourself empty-headed, savage. Cease your ignorant yapping. Trying to correct your misconceptions would be a waste of effort, and I have not the reach to silence your wagging tongue or I would have done it already.
... snip snip an excellent use of pragmatism as a criterion for paladin conduct snip ...
Common sense is a cipher. It means 'convenience' or 'sentiment'.
Mercy is a trap. Society cannot survive mercy. Allow one transgression to go without the appropriate punishment and you invite another. Your mercy bleeds society, one soul at a time. The greatest good comes from the strict enforcement of Discipline. Forsake immediate good for future good. We are not here to be loved. We are here to save the world from itself.
So the answer to my question is "Yes"? You would see Cheliax awash in an endless tide of blood? You would turn common citizens into bloodthirsty murderers? You would have the Final Blades deliver their soul-stealing "justice" upon all those accused of being Thrune sympathizers?
You read the words, but you do not understand the lesson of Galt, and its Red Revolution. I do not think that it is my Paladin-hood that is in danger...
This knight is wise. He understands what is at stake.
In truth, it is we who failed the people of Galt. We did not do enough to purge them of their wild ways, nor could we find enough men to keep their radical leaders from retaking the province.
*removes his helmet*
If the only choice is the continued riegn of Evil or a jolt of Chaos, then Chaos is the only choice.
So believed Hosetter of Galt.
However, such a choice is false.
You are the one who professes that the Paladin must choose between obeying the Law and promoting the cause of Good. I make no such distinction.
I choose the path of the Paladin. I will obey the Law. I will promote Righteousness. I will never compromise. The diabolic cancer of Cheliax has no greater fear than my blade, my shield, my conviction. I will see the evil of the world undone and I will build the foundation for lasting victory.
I am Destroyer and Defender, Slayer and Healer.
I am The Crusader.
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If the only choice is the continued riegn of Evil or a jolt of Chaos, then Chaos is the only choice.So believed Hosetter of Galt.
However, such a choice is false.You are the one who professes that the Paladin must choose between obeying the Law and promoting the cause of Good. I make no such distinction.
I choose the path of the Paladin. I will obey the Law. I will promote Righteousness. I will never compromise. The diabolic cancer of Cheliax has no greater fear than my blade, my shield, my conviction. I will see the evil of the world undone and I will build the foundation for lasting victory.
I am Destroyer and Defender, Slayer and Healer.
I am The Crusader.
*dons his helmet*
Cheliax is not your foe. Should we meet on the field of battle, one of us would surely fall and all the world made poorer for it.
Consider joining the Orders. As a Hellknight, you could put fear into the heart of every devil-worshipper and heretic.
*removes his helmet*
So do you allow masters to rape their slaves? Do you return escaped slaves to bondage? To you execute children for the crime of starvation?
Do you kick down doors and storm private homes? Do you stop people in the streets, or in the wilds, and demand their identity? Do you ignore children's pleas of hunger, and watch them sink into desperation?
If yes, then you are truly lost. If no, then I need not hold you accountable.
So do you allow masters to rape their slaves?
Do you return escaped slaves to bondage?
To you execute children for the crime of starvation?
1. Nope, no law says that Rape is ok.
2. If indeed they were rightfully and legally placed in bondage (ie unpaid debtor).3. Starvation is not a crime.
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So do you allow masters to rape their slaves? Do you return escaped slaves to bondage? To you execute children for the crime of starvation?
IF yes then you have already fallen, if no then you have already dismissed unjust Law as what it is, a Lie.
*dons his helmet*
A slaveholder who rapes a slave debases himself and damages an innocent. In the margins of my copy of the Measure, the smallest punishment I have found for this is five lashes in public, his shame obvious to all, and the manumission of the wronged since the slaveholder has proven himself unqualified to hold slaves. There exist slaves obligated to carnal services, but I disapprove of them as they set a bad precedent and manumit such courtesans whenever I am able. That I cannot be everywhere at once to check such pathetic abuses galls me.
Escapes slaves are returned to bondage. The reasons for their flight are sought out. Punishment is applied to all involved in appropriate measure until Order is restored.
Children that starve in Cheliax do so because they have not availed themselves of opportunities to seek work or charity. This may be because they are criminals and lack the character to appear and answer for their transgressions. Or because another has barred them from leaving their tenement in order to turn them against the state. Or because natural factors have depleted the mandated storehouses of their community. Or perhaps because they were somehow allowed to be ignorant of such opportunities. In all cases, punishment is administered appropriately.
*removes his helmet*
May as well leave that helmet on...
Stuff about slaves and sexual assault
Actually, what one can and cannot do, sexually, with oneself or with another, has, at times past, often been made illegal, regardless of personal property or even pleasuring oneself in incorrect circumstances. Even now, what one does with one's own property is - to certain extents - described by the law. If you treat your house poorly enough, you may be violating the local codes and could, if severe enough, have it taken away from you, even if you have fully paid it off. Trash - that is the waste of things that are yours that are broken - have ways that are prescribed for disposal. This has long been true. You can't simply say "it's mine, I can do whatever I want with it": that has never been a universal truth (though it has been true in some, possibly most societies). Even personally vandalizing your own property can get you into trouble, depending on the local legislature. This doesn't inherently "good" or "bad" - it's self-serving (no one wants to live in a dump) and for the common good (as no one wants to live in a dump). So the morality of such things can swing either way.
Thus, your presumption that slavery-ownership provides legal right to pleasure oneself at the expense of another by virtue of ownership allowing complete authority presumes a constant precedent that isn't present in most legal systems past or present. It's a weak argument for extremist cases.
EDIT:
"Stealing from starvation -> punishment" = "starvation is crime"
This is ALSO a weak argument, because it presumes that the thief has nowhere else to turn. While this may be true, it's a large presumption when there are charity groups that specifically open their doors to hungry children and there are organizations that (among other duties) work to guarantee either charity or placement for those who have no way of working or defending themselves. Again, this is neither inherently altruistic nor selfish: it's a simple act of reason in order to better the entire community (including the place that you live, ergo making your own life better).
Thus, your presumption that slavery-ownership provides legal right to pleasure oneself at the expense of another by virtue of ownership allowing complete authority presumes a constant precedent that isn't present in most legal systems past or present. It's a weak argument.
This.
The problem the slaves had is thatif they WERE raped, they had little recourse to justice. That is an entirely different argument.
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Just throwings this outs theres: There's also the folks that fall under the Happiness In Slavery trope for whatever reason, some of which is present in Lem's backstory(halflings in Cheliax at that).
That covers a wide range of possibilities, from the expected tragic Stockholm Syndrome crowd(which Lem's family may have qualified for) but also those that find real security in their station in life. After all, it is a position some have entered into willingly through various means. Concept of Hiketeia comes to mind.
Of course that doesn't cover chattel slavery, some of which is practiced in Cheliax, Qadira(check out any entry for Sedeq in the flavor and try to suppress a shudder), and taken to a horrific extreme in mother@#$%ing Geb. Though at the same time, that's also not the only type of slavery in practice even in those lands.
And yeah, while pointing out all the indentured servants, debtors, criminals, and whatnot, let's not forget all the abductees and slaving raid victims. Sup Foundation of Gnoll and Bekyar Economy.