Welcome, dear readers.
I am a DM, willing to tinker with rules and at the same time unwilling to bend them too much...
Today an old Dragon Magazine issue (namely, 325) came right under my nose. Now, the theurgic possibilities made me think.
--Alternative source spell [MetaMagic]. By taking this feat, you can prepare divine spells as arcane spells and/or arcane spells as divine ones (at a CasterLevel lowered by 1). PreRequisite, to be able to cast spells of the two sources.--
Well, to a religious and pious wizard [worshipping a Magic-Related entity/divinity/whatever] really not willing to take even one level of the priest-like classes it could be something to think upon! ...
Would it be so a fault, ruleWise thinking, to allow this by pre-requiring to the former this homemade Feat:
Spontaneous Theurgy [(MetaMagic? ) Feat] - By taking this feat, a spellcaster is considered <able to cast both divine and arcane spells>
Please, do give me your thoughts on this subject...
Thank you in advance!
I take it the whole point is to get into mystic theurge without having to take the proper number of divine caster levels?
I personally would never allow it.
As I said, this is only to allow researching/having some spell of the other source in your arsenal. that is not meant to multiclass.
Maybe you could help me , exactly as I am wishing for, to chisel such possibility without endangering the whole frameset? :-)
...Maybe the (key)word is _research_ ?
This way, I could phrase the feat as:
Spontaneous Theurgy [(MetaMagic? ) Feat] - By taking this feat, a spellcaster is considered <able to cast both divine and arcane spells> in order to research/learn spells from the 'other' source.
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OK Mr. Fishy is it broke test the short version.
1. Pretend you a player in your game.
2. Think about how much damage you could do with that "rule change."
Not how much you would, how much you could.
3. Multiply that by by 10.
4.Revise the rule.
It's easy gain power. Wanna see a grown man throw a tantum, take power away.
OK Mr. Fishy is it broke test the short version.
1. Pretend you a player in your game.
2. Think about how much damage you could do with that "rule change."
Not how much you would, how much you could.3. Multiply that by by 10.
4.Revise the rule.
It's easy gain power. Wanna see a grown man throw a tantum, take power away.
I see your point, but I would like to see the way to use a few Dm-selected & DM-Approved spells changed to both-source, always rulewise.
I do not say freecrossing, but free-researching; as a wizard could, say that, change the 'shield' and 'mage armor' to a different school (hoping this is not starting other 'tzk-tzk-tzk' responses)... :-)
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You might want to add a school or level restiction. Or Limit the cross to adept spell list. Adepts only get 6th level spells. Or write up a spell list for the feat. Then you have the push factor.
Your best bet is to kick the idea around. Then playtest it with a NPC and trash the place. You need to see how bad it can be first. Player will allow a NPC to playtest a power and lose it easier than if they have it themselves.
See the advise above.
You might want to add a school or level restiction. Or Limit the cross to adept spell list. Adepts only get 6th level spells. Or write up a spell list for the feat.
Sounds good :-) thank you!
Could it be something such these?
***
-- level version, X being 1 to 6 --
Spontaneous Theurgy [X] [(MetaMagic? ) Feat] - By taking this feat, a spellcaster is considered <able to cast both divine and arcane spells> in order to research/learn X level spells from the 'other' source. Many spells could well result in enhanced level (1st level turning up being 3rd, etc)
***
and
***
--school version, one feat version per school --
Spontaneous Theurgy [school] [(MetaMagic? ) Feat] - By taking this feat, a spellcaster is considered <able to cast both divine and arcane spells> in order to research/learn spells of the selected school from the 'other' source. Many spells could well result in enhanced level (1st level turning up being 3rd, etc)
***
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I once let a wizard take a feat to be able to research arcane versions of divine spells, but it was restricted to spells of a given domain (chosen with the feat). This was because it was a 2-player campaign and healing was needed (they took it for the Healing domain).
A more fair approach would probably be to allow them to pick a number of spells based on int mod (3+int?) and add them to their spell list, but still require them to learn them separately (allowing them to be learned from divine scrolls). And make those spells one level higher than normal.
Even then this might be a bit strong, but if it is then you can just adjust it up to +2 spell levels instead.
I once let a wizard take a feat to be able to research arcane versions of divine spells, but it was restricted to spells of a given domain (chosen with the feat) ...
that would add
***
--school version, one feat version per Domain --
Spontaneous Theurgy [Domain] [(MetaMagic? ) Feat] - By taking this feat, a spellcaster is considered <able to cast both divine and arcane spells> in order to research/learn spells of the selected Domain from the 'other' source. Many spells could well result in enhanced level (1st level turning up being 3rd, etc)
***
...A more fair approach would probably be to allow them to pick a number of spells based on int mod (3+int?) and add them to their spell list, but still require them to learn them separately
that would add
***
--Selected Spells --
Spontaneous Theurgy [3+ModInt] [(MetaMagic? ) Feat] - By taking this feat, a spellcaster is considered <able to cast both divine and arcane spells> in order to research/learn 3+ModInt spells from the 'other' source. Many spells could well result in enhanced level (1st level turning up being 3rd, etc)
***
(allowing them to be learned from divine scrolls).
maybe... in some instancies, in my campaign could well be divine inspiration from a deity not giving priest spells (or not having priests at all)...
And make those spells one level higher than normal.
Even then this might be a bit strong, but if it is then you can just adjust it up to +2 spell levels instead.
That's something keeping showing its ugly head within my personal doubts: (e.g.) is there a good motivation for an abiurer not having an arcane version of the divine 'shield of faith' ? or an abjuration version of 'Mage Armor' ? and why not at as 1st level spells, too? he's an abjuration master, protection is his field of specialization, etc etc....
That could be exactly like the poor priest of the classic ' Xyhffsf the god of fire' without a fireball-like spell... BUT the gods can lend domain spells trimmed for the occasion, where wizards are (usually) alone...
[yes I know of magic colleges etc... that was written to add colour :-) ]
thank you for the useful insights!
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Contributor
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Welcome, dear readers.
I am a DM, willing to tinker with rules and at the same time unwilling to bend them too much...
Today an old Dragon Magazine issue (namely, 325) came right under my nose. Now, the theurgic possibilities made me think.
--Alternative source spell [MetaMagic]. By taking this feat, you can prepare divine spells as arcane spells and/or arcane spells as divine ones (at a CasterLevel lowered by 1). PreRequisite, to be able to cast spells of the two sources.--
Well, to a religious and pious wizard [worshipping a Magic-Related entity/divinity/whatever] really not willing to take even one level of the priest-like classes it could be something to think upon! ...
Would it be so a fault, ruleWise thinking, to allow this by pre-requiring to the former this homemade Feat:
Spontaneous Theurgy [(MetaMagic? ) Feat] - By taking this feat, a spellcaster is considered <able to cast both divine and arcane spells>
Please, do give me your thoughts on this subject...
Thank you in advance!
Howdy Herr Proof!!!
Your topic hit my eye as I was scanning threads.If you dig into the Surge Article, your going to notice a deliberate trend that keeps the feats balanced (and quite different from the mystic theurge). That is, the feats really, really limit the spells you're able to cast with combined caster levels.
The purpose of the article was to balance out some areas where say a cleric of fire who happened to take a few arcane levels to increase his knowledge of fire spells could take a feat and cast all fire spells at his combined caster level.
If I get where you're coming from, I'm guessing your saying I want my spellcaster to be able to cast a both arcane and divine spells. If so, I have a suggestion for a house rule feat.
Try something like
"Scribe Theurgic Scroll"
(scribe scroll as a prerequisite)
The concept here, would be to allow a divine caster to scribe a divine version of an arcane scroll, or vice versa. Burning two feats (I'm including the prerequisite), plus the cost of having to prepare the spell as a scroll might put a nice cap on it, preventing over abuse and keep it away from the territory of the Mystic Theurge.
Note: you'd need flavor text to make this happen properly, as there should be something the caster needs to base the spell off of when scribing it. For this reason, it might only work as a "allows you to prepare a divine scroll from an arcane spell found in a spellbook".
Again, this is sort of a rough idea I have here, but I dig the fact that someone still reads old Dragon article!
So thanks for that!
... That is, the feats really, really limit the spells you're able to cast with combined caster levels.
combined, that's multiclassing ... ^_^
...The purpose of the article was to balance out some areas where say a cleric of fire who happened to take a few arcane levels to increase his knowledge of fire spells
that is precisely what I would like to avoid.
In a restricted area of professionality, as a priest of fire should not say "that wizard spell utilizes fire in a way my god-granted spells cannot match", so a wizard should not need to envy a priest's spell doing something he is expert into... again, the abjurer saying "I would like to use the protection given by 'Shield of Faith' ".If I get where you're coming from, I'm guessing your saying I want my spellcaster to be able to cast a both arcane and divine spells.
As I perceive it, something of the old view "wizard damage and alter, priest create and cure" has been changed more and more with years of roleplaying. Some priest do hit more than a few wizards (not to mention specialists in abjuration and divination schools)...
If so, I have a suggestion for a house rule feat. Try something like "Scribe Theurgic Scroll" (scribe scroll as a prerequisite)...
I see the point tending to limit the whole thing, that probably is for good....
I think me poisoned by some concepts of Ars Magica (® or TM ?) of old...Something that makes me see some oddities in a few rules here in there...
oh well ...
I'm happy to see there is someone remembering the Dragon Magazine old issues ^_^
see you again somewhere in these pages!
Looking for stuff
I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm curious if what you're looking for is something more along the lines of a super-specialist: an abjurer that can abjure more than an abjure could abjure, if and abjurer was an abjurer super-specialist!
I see a couple of things, here.
First: there's precedent for arcane casters casting divine spells as arcane spells beyond the mystic theurge. Look at the Guardian Naga and the Couatl. Both gain divine spells on their arcane lists.
Second: you're looking to make a feat selection that allows a person to acquire spells normally beyond his means.
Third: there's a precedent for this as well - look at the feats in the forgotten realms supplement Lost Empires of Faerun, referencing prohibited schools.
Solution: follow the precedents to arrive at a similar conclusion.
1) The first feat allows you to use any one spell you normally wouldn't be able to due to prohibited schools. This can be taken multiple times to get more spells. They are treated as if they weren't prohibited for you. For example, say your prohibited are necromancy and transmutation, and you take this feat - you could learn one spell from that school and it wouldn't be counted as prohibited, although it's still for all other purposes a necromancy or transmutation spell.
2) The second actually allows you to use a single type of item based on prohibited schools. This item must be of the same school(s) you took the first feat from. In other words, if your prohibited is necromancy and transmutation, and you take the first feat to gain a necromancy spell (say, Gentle Repose), you can only take this feat to gain access to a necromancy item. You can take this feat so it applies to [all necromancy staffs], [all necromancy wands], [all necromancy wondrous items], and so on. This feat can be taken multiple times.
3) The third allows you to ignore prohibited schools entirely. Again, you must choose this feat in relation to the two you chose before. So you chose first a necromancy spell (Gentle Repose), and next a necromantic item [necromancy wondrous items] (to get that robe of bones). So when you take this feat, you treat all spells from the necromancy school as non-prohibited spells.
So, let's take that from a design standpoint and follow precedent, with our own twists.
1) Theurgic Arcana, Personal [spellcasting]
BENEFIT: You may learn any one divine spell of a specific school, a specific domain, or specific descriptor equal to one less than the highest level you may cast. If you are a specialist, and you choose a school, you must select your specialty school the first time you take this feat. Otherwise, you may select any spell. You may treat that spell like a spell on your class list for all purposes, including item use and learning or adding to spells known. Prepared casters can learn the spells from a scroll, or similar, as normal, (or, they simply have them on their available spells to prepare, if they - like a cleric or druid - have their entire list of spells they may choose from) while spontaneous casters can add some of the spells to their list of spells known, when they can learn new spells, as if it were on their class spell lists.
SPECIAL: You may take this feat multiple times. A wizard may take this as a bonus feat.2) Theurgic Arcana, Wielded [spellcasting]
Prerequisites: at least two "Theurgic Arcana, Personal" feats with the same spell school, domain, or descriptor.
BENEFIT: You may treat any item that uses the the spell school, cleric domain, or spell descriptor, that you chose for at least two of your Theurgic Arcana, Personal feats as if it were a spell from your class spell list, even if it's not the spell you chose for those feats. You must choose a single item type and a single school, domain, or descriptor when you choose this feat. That is the only item type and only school you may treat as on your spell list. For example, you might choose a wand, but that would not give you access to wondrous items, rings, or scrolls. You might choose the [good] descriptor, in which case items that cast spells with the [good] descriptor would be appropriate, but not items that cast spells without it. If you choose an item that casts multiple spell types, like a staff, only the spells with the appropriate school, domain, or descriptor function properly. You do not need to know the spell the item has in it, however.
SPECIAL: You may take this feat multiple times. It applies to a different item type or a different school, domain, or descriptor each time. A wizard may take this as a bonus feat.3) Theurgic Arcana, Complete [spellcasting]
Prerequisites: at least two "Theurgic Arcana, Wielded" feats with the same spell school, domain, or descriptor.
BENEFIT: You may treat all spells from the school, domain, or descriptor that you originally chose for all purposes, including learning, item-use and creation, and for any other purpose. Those spells become spells on your class spell list. A prepared caster can learn those spells from scrolls (or, they simply have them on their available spells to prepare, if they - like a cleric or druid - have a their entire list of spells they may choose from), while a spontaneous could choose them as some of their spells known, when they receive a new spells known, as if it were part of their class spell list.
SPECIAL: you can take this feat multiple times. It applies to a different school, domain, or descriptor each time. A wizard can take this as a bonus feat.
I suggest multiple feats, unlike the original, because this is an incredibly powerful trick - going completely outside your normal spell list. I am unsure about the domain added, although thematically that makes sense, as that's the weakest of the options. I also recommend multiple iterations of the feat because that actually costs resources. In Pathfinder feats are more available than in 3.X. I would also recommend that these be bonus feats for a class that gains them, like the wizard, however I simply couldn't think of any others, thus that's the only class specified.
Hope this helps...
You might want to take a look at the PFSRD and look up the Magister/Magus PrC and Pathfinder savant PrC.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/pathfinder -savant
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/s/magister
The magister is not particulary well-balanced, but it has some fairly well thought out method to cross spell lists within the PrC.
provided you took the feat, I would suggest:
* specialist wizards to learn and research divine spells as if they were spells one level higher, provided they are of the specialists school. This allows an abjurer to learn Shield of Faith as a 2nd level spell for example.
* Allow wizards to select a domain to learn spells from at 1 level higher regardless of specialization.
* Allow universal wizards to learn any divine spell at 2 levels higher.
* Allow wizards to learn spells from the witch list as 1 level higher
* Allow divine casters to learn arcane spells from any one sub school as 1 level higher, but it has to be appropriate to the faith.
* allow divine casters to learn divine spells of another divine class as 1 level higher cleric, learning druid spells as 1 level higher for example.
These examples only apply to full caster classes (9 levels of spells), spells from non-full caster classes could be learned but count as being another level higher, a cleric could learn bless weapon as a 3rd level cleric spell for example.
I'd look at it from a case by case basis though, not all cross overs are as powerful as others, a divine caster learning abjuration spells would not benefit nearly as much as a cleric learning illusion or transmutation spells, transmutation spells might be limited to the polymorph subschool while abjuration can be allowed as a whole.
It's a Wonder, thanks to all of you!
--
As a side note, I am trying to obtain one of these effects tinkering with the 'protection from evil' spell (see the 'protection from neutral' thread) :-)