So here's the deal; I'm running a small side game for a few friends, and built this underwater temple dungeoun crawl for them to go through. Now the party consists of
Human Fighter
Dwarf Alchemist
Half Orc Inquisitor
Assimar Cleric
All of which are level 1, and this is the final encounter taking place infront of an alter decedicated to an evil water elemental lord. Is this guy to powerful for a party of 1st level party? and yes i know it varies on what the party plays like. I just want to know straight opinions. Thanks :)
Brozzar CR 3
Male Human Warrior 2/Sorcerer (Draconic Black) 3
NG Medium Humanoid
Init +6; Senses .; Perception -2
=============================
Defense
=============================
AC 21, touch 20, flat-footed 19 (+4 armor, +2 Dex, +1 Natural, +4 Shield)
hp 29 (5HD 2d10+3d6+8)
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
Resist Acid 5
=============================
Offense
=============================
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Greatclub +8 (1d10+10/x2) or 2 claws +8 (1d4+7/x2)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 3rd; concentration +5)
1st (6/day)—Mage Armor*, Shield*, Sleep (DC 14), Magic Missile
0 (at will)—Acid Splash, Read Magic, Daze, Resistance, Detect Magic
*Already Cast
=============================
Tactics
=============================
Before Combat When the alarm is triggered Brozzar uses his potion of bulls strength, then casts shield, and mage armor
During Combat Brozzar will start combat by using his lesser elemental gem to summon a small water elemental (pg 126, bestiary), then attacks the strongest or most dangerous looking foe using power attack (already factored into his stats above)
Morale Brozzar fights to death
=============================
Statistics
=============================
Str 20, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 11, Wis 7, Cha 14
Base Atk: 3; CMB:+8; CMD: 20
Feats: Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Cleave, Eschew Materials
Skills: Climb +10, Intimidate +10, Spellcraft +4, Swim +10, Use Magic Device +8
Languages: Common
SQ Claws, Draconic Resistances, Bloodline Arcana (+1 Acid Damage per damage die)
Gear Masterwork Greatclub, potion of Bulls Strength, Lesser Elemental Gem, Potion of Cure Light Wounds, 30gp, 28sp, 88cp
Is this guy to powerful for a party of 1st level party?
...
Melee Greatclub +8 (1d10+10/x2) or 2 claws +8 (1d4+7/x2)
Yes. This guy could floor a barbarian in a single hit. The levels are fine as they are, I think, but he needs some serious toning down. I'd definately drop shield, and consider making bulls strength a last resort. I'd use the elite array for his stats (15, 13, 12, 10, 8, 14) to nerf his damage somewhat and keep those HD. I'd also trade furious focus out for dodge or something, but that's just a matter of taste.
|
Also, this guy is in no way CR3. He's definitely CR4 since he has PC class levels. And CR is based on the elite array, so if you used higher stats then you should consider increasing CR again.
I also recommend avoiding any encounters higher than CR3 at level one (again, this guy's at least 4, possibly 5 with the higher stats). Although it says in the book that players can handle EL +3 as really tough encounters, in practice sending that against a level one party results in a wipe. Introduce an EL+3 at level 3 at the earliest.
Yeah, this guy is very strong.
As pointed out, the inclusion of PC class levels makes his CR equal to his HD - 1, so he is CR 4. Making him an APL + 3 all on his own. Any APL + 3 encounter has a significant risk of PC death. This is particularly true at low levels. Plus, he is at the end of a dungeon, which means the PCs will be low on resources to begin with.
And he seems to have no particular weaknesses. At range, he can use his sleep spells to take out the heavy hitters. Up close, that greatclub is brutal, especially with cleave, letting him hit 2 melees per round. If somebody tries to grapple him, which is the typical method for dealing with casters and also prevents him using the greatclub, he can respond with a double-claw attack. And an AC of 21/20/19 is really hard for lvl 1 PCs to hit. Assuming the human fighter has 18 Str, that's still only a +5 to hit (6 if he took weapon focus).
If he has any mooks around him, you are most likely looking at a TPK from this guy, barring some really lucky rolls. On his own, he can still take out a few PCs, and has a real chance at wiping all of them.
To tone him down, make him much more stingy with his resources. That potion of bulls strength and elemental gem are worth 300gp each (assuming CL 3), making them the vast majority of what he has. He's not going to burn those unless he has to.
As a side note, to the people suggesting elite array, it looks like that was done here already, with the exception of the 8 giving a point up to the 10, to get the 7 Wis, 11 Int, which is net loss to the NPC. The other additions comes from the potion of bulls str (going to the 16 Str), and the human +2 bonus going to the 12 Cha.
Lastly... why is this NG black dragon dude hanging out at the altar to an evil underwater deity?
Yeah, this guy is very strong.
As pointed out, the inclusion of PC class levels makes his CR equal to his HD - 1, so he is CR 4. Making him an APL + 3 all on his own. Any APL + 3 encounter has a significant risk of PC death. This is particularly true at low levels. Plus, he is at the end of a dungeon, which means the PCs will be low on resources to begin with.
And he seems to have no particular weaknesses. At range, he can use his sleep spells to take out the heavy hitters. Up close, that greatclub is brutal, especially with cleave, letting him hit 2 melees per round. If somebody tries to grapple him, which is the typical method for dealing with casters and also prevents him using the greatclub, he can respond with a double-claw attack. And an AC of 21/20/19 is really hard for lvl 1 PCs to hit. Assuming the human fighter has 18 Str, that's still only a +5 to hit (6 if he took weapon focus).
If he has any mooks around him, you are most likely looking at a TPK from this guy, barring some really lucky rolls. On his own, he can still take out a few PCs, and has a real chance at wiping all of them.
To tone him down, make him much more stingy with his resources. That potion of bulls strength and elemental gem are worth 300gp each (assuming CL 3), making them the vast majority of what he has. He's not going to burn those unless he has to.
As a side note, to the people suggesting elite array, it looks like that was done here already, with the exception of the 8 giving a point up to the 10, to get the 7 Wis, 11 Int, which is net loss to the NPC. The other additions comes from the potion of bulls str (going to the 16 Str), and the human +2 bonus going to the 12 Cha.
Lastly... why is this NG black dragon dude hanging out at the altar to an evil underwater deity?
Ok the NG was my bad, was using a template, was suppost to be CE lol. And yes he was built using a 15pt buy which is the standard. I didn't even factor in the 4th level stat increase. So what I could do is make him a 1st level fighter and 3rd level sorcerer, that removes some of his hp and bab. Going to replace Furious Focus with something else, Maybe improved natural attack claws, and maybe replace cleave so that way he doesn't KO 2 guys in 1 round.
|
|
AC 21, 29HP, STR:20 and a two-hander or two claws versus 4 1st-levels?
Each of his claws does more damage than the average 1HD mook with a sword and STR:16, and he has almost triple the hitpoints.
If he goes first (and why not attack from surprise, if he knows in advance enough to get off all the buffs), he casts Sleep with fair odds of nailing half the PCs. With +6 INIT, he's 60+% likely to go first in the first battle round, and charges vs flatfooted to splatter one of the remaining PCs with a greatclub attack. One PC now remains standing, and the Brozzar may be adjacent to sleeping, prone PCs.
...it's a TPK most of the time by-the-odds.
Ok so here is what I done, I replaced the 2 warrior levels with 1 fighter, same number of feats, less HP, put the 4th level stat increase in intelligence to give me the draconic language. Dumped the potion of bulls strength since that breaks the encounter. Replaced Improved Initiative with Blind Fight, and Cleave with Arcane Strike. This should put him at a CR 3 (4 class levels -1 equals 3). AC is still the same, I do want him to put up a tough fight. Here's an updated version.
Brozzar CR 3
Male Human Fighter 1/Sorcerer (Draconic Black) 3
CE Medium Humanoid
Init +2; Senses .; Perception -2
=============================
Defense
=============================
AC 21, touch 20, flat-footed 19 (+4 armor, +2 Dex, +1 Natural, +4 Shield)
hp 25 (4HD 1d10+3d6+5)
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
Resist Acid 5
=============================
Offense
=============================
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Greatclub +6 (1d10+7/x2) or 2 claws +5 (1d4+5/x2)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 3rd; concentration +5)
1st (6/day)—Mage Armor, Shield, Sleep (DC 14), Magic Missile
0 (at will)—Acid Splash, Read Magic, Daze, Resistance, Detect Magic
=============================
Tactics
=============================
Before Combat When the alarm is triggered Brozzar casts shield, and mage armor
During Combat Brozzar will start combat by using his lesser elemental gem to summon a small water elemental (pg 126, bestiary), and has it distract any enemy that tries to keep his distance. Brozzar then attacks the strongest or most dangerous looking foe using power attack (already factored into his stats above). He will result to Sleep and Magic Missiles if he has trouble keeping targets within range of his greatclub.
Morale When reduced to under 10hp Brozzar uses his potion cure light wounds before fighting to death
=============================
Statistics
=============================
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 7, Cha 14
Base Atk: 2; CMB: +5; CMD: 17
Feats: Blind Fight, Power Attack, Furious Focus , Arcane Strike, Eschew Materials
Skills: Climb +8, Intimidate +10, Spellcraft +5, Swim +8, Use Magic Device +8
Languages: Common, Draconic
SQ Claws, Draconic Resistances, Bloodline Arcana (+1 Acid Damage per damage die)
Gear Masterwork Greatclub, lesser elemental gem, Potion of Cure Light Wounds, 30gp, 28sp, 88cp
I still think there are some issues that need to be addressed.
A PC with 18 strength and weapon focus is still only looking at a +6 to hit, before power attack.
That means they can only land an attack on a 15 or above.
Meanwhile any 1st level PC (barbarians aside, but you don't have one) is going down in two hits from that greatclub, which will deal a minimum of 16 damage all up. More than likely, he'll take them out in one.
You really need to pull your punches with a first level party. Or otherwise wait for them to level up some more before throwing a boss-monster like this at them. I really dont think a 4 man group could handle an encounter like this without some very lucky crits. It could easily be over in 4 swings, while your group has no way of damaging him that doesn't target that scary 20+ AC. I think you should drop shield (at least) and give him an achilles heel.
Why is his touch AC so high, by the way? Does Shield really work like that? (If so, I need to start casting it more with my sorcerer)
His touch AC should only be 13. Touch ignores both armor and shield bonuses including those granted by Mage Armor and Shield.
Since he is a Sorcerer 3 and only a fighter 1, and because he is an NPC baddy, his stats should probably be
Str: 14, Dex: 12, Con: 13, Int: 8, Wis: 10, and Cha: 15 based on the elite array. Add 2 to Str for a racial bonus since you're trying to make him a melee-type.
BTW, why is he a melee type again? He's a Sorcerer. Why isn't he sorcerering? If he's a water elemental lord, why is he using acid which is an earth element, the diametric opposition to chosen lordship? If he were water elementalling, he'd be using cold based attacks.
With the above stats, the save against sleep is a 13. The Alchemist and Fighter both have bad saves against Will and it will depend on how the other two are stat'd up as to whether or not they're going to stay awake. You're probably looking at a 40-60% chance of putting the entire party to sleep. Not good.
Normally you wouldn't be able to cast Summon Monster II -- required for a small water elemental -- until 4th level as a sorcerer. Part of whether or not this is too powerful is based on where they are fighting. If they are fighting in a foot or so of water, the elemental has the advantage and you've probably increased the CR of your encounter by a point, possibly two.
Since the Alchemist is usually throwing alchemists fire or acid vials at this level, if they are fighting in water it takes away one of his advantages; not to mention the Acid resist of the bad guy. This encounter may still be too difficult for 4 first-level adventurers of those classes.
--JD
His touch AC should only be 13. Touch ignores both armor and shield bonuses including those granted by Mage Armor and Shield.
Since he is a Sorcerer 3 and only a fighter 1, and because he is an NPC baddy, his stats should probably be
Str: 14, Dex: 12, Con: 13, Int: 8, Wis: 10, and Cha: 15 based on the elite array. Add 2 to Str for a racial bonus since you're trying to make him a melee-type.BTW, why is he a melee type again? He's a Sorcerer. Why isn't he sorcerering? If he's a water elemental lord, why is he using acid which is an earth element, the diametric opposition to chosen lordship? If he were water elementalling, he'd be using cold based attacks.
With the above stats, the save against sleep is a 13. The Alchemist and Fighter both have bad saves against Will and it will depend on how the other two are stat'd up as to whether or not they're going to stay awake. You're probably looking at a 40-60% chance of putting the entire party to sleep. Not good.
Normally you wouldn't be able to cast Summon Monster II -- required for a small water elemental -- until 4th level as a sorcerer. Part of whether or not this is too powerful is based on where they are fighting. If they are fighting in a foot or so of water, the elemental has the advantage and you've probably increased the CR of your encounter by a point, possibly two.
Since the Alchemist is usually throwing alchemists fire or acid vials at this level, if they are fighting in water it takes away one of his advantages; not to mention the Acid resist of the bad guy. This encounter may still be too difficult for 4 first-level adventurers of those classes.
--JD
K, well first off thanks for the advice everyone. Secondly the temple is not completely underwater, there will be moments when the PCS have to work through some water (half movement speed) but nothing that bad anyways. Now the reason I choose Acid is simple. Black Dragons have the water sub type, they want to corrupt and destroy water, which is why to me it seemed fitting. He uses his sorcerer spells to augment his melee power (I could of gone magnus but I wanted the black dragon bloodline for flavor)
Now the Encounter itself is going to be on this large round piece of stone after the chamber they are in begins to flood. Basicly once the encounter is over the PCS will have a number of rounds to make there escape before drowning.
Also; after comparing Brozzar with other final bosses of level 1 modules (crypt of the everflame, fallen fortress, hallows last help) he seems to be right on par with what they can do
I think the revised version is about right. With only a +5 or +6 to hit he won't get in too many hits on smart PC's. The fighter interposes and fights defensively (meaning not likely to hit, but bumping his/her AC to over 20 most likely) while the inquisitor and/or cleric tries to flank. The sleep spell is troublesome, but then again so are several 1st level arcane spells. It comes with the territory.
The water elemental is almost inconsequential since it will be in the water and the PC's out of the water, no?
I meant to add, that in regards to Crypt of the Everflame (and probably other full-length level 1 modules), I believe PC's are expected to be 2nd level before they reach the bbeg. Just something to consider. Good luck!
|
|
I still think there are some issues that need to be addressed.
A PC with 18 strength and weapon focus is still only looking at a +6 to hit, before power attack.
That means they can only land an attack on a 15 or above.
Meanwhile any 1st level PC (barbarians aside, but you don't have one) is going down in two hits from that greatclub, which will deal a minimum of 16 damage all up. More than likely, he'll take them out in one.
Exactly.
Remember that the first job of a DM is to permit your players to have fun.
-- If the first thing that happens, after they spent hours thinking about and tinkering with their character, is they are immediately splattered in round 1 of encounter 1, where does their fun go?
This creature is still a "boss"-level foe -- IMO he's better off introduced as a villain (who will be re-occurring) who sends out minions (whom the party can actually deal with tactically or with skills rather than facing desperate hopes in a dice-off).
- - - -
That the party can possibly or even probably defeat a monster is irrelevant; what matters is if certain character classes are rendered seriously unviable by frequent encounters containing high DPR opponents. (Introducing an opponent like this in "pre-Raise Dead" level play results in players building all-combat characters, which diminishes the roleplaying aspect, which leads to a vicious circle of hack-n-slash until eventually neither the DM or players are having any fun, and reboot the campaign.)
|
I think he is fine, if difficult, for a standard 1st level party. The issue is, with an alchemist and inquisitor, you are not dealing with a terribly good 1st level party. Giving him amazing touch ACs will make the alchemist pretty much worthless, and they have no good debuffer types to take him down a notch. Then you're adding prep time (with the alarm, which I think is fine, given their failure to include a rogue), and giving him a gem he will use to summon in a distracting mook.
You do need to lower HP by 4 (max 1st is not an NPC advantage), so that will make things closer. Just be aware that it becomes easier to overcome high CRs at higher levels... level 1s are really squishy.