A question just came up in my game, followed by a seemingly correct but unsatisfying solution, followed by some more speculation and then a related question.
The question was from one of my players, who's a fighter but rather obsessed with baking as he's from a family of bakers and intends, once he's sought his fortune, to retire to start his own bakery and also use the recipes he's learned in his travel.
The Question: Who is the god of bakers in Golarion?
My Answer: Abadar, who's the god of banking and civilization. Bread is a nickname for money and all cities require bakeries to function.
Why this is vaguely unsatisfying: Why should a CG character have to worship a LN god to pursue his passion?
I then came across a related question when a friend had her washing machine die and she was planning to make a shrine to St. Jude on the new one which couldn't be installed yet due to rusty pipe, and I started wondering which Catholic saint presided over washing machines or laundry in general. I guessed it might be St. Veronica, who had the miraculous veil which she used as a towel, but I of course went to look it up and I found there were no less than five Catholic saints in charge of laundresses. St. Veronica was only one, and she split her duties by also taking care of photographers, but while St. Martha, St. Lawrence, and St. Clare of Assisi all had laundry lists of professions who could pray to them, only St. Hunna showed the dedication to be the Holy Washerwoman and only preside over laundresses.
I'm thinking it must be a similar situation with the gods in Golarion. Abadar is the god of bread and breadmakers insomuch as bread is part of civilization and commerce. Urgathoa can probably claim some baking duties as well as goddess of feasting and the whole "I'll grind his bones to make my bread" shtick. Even Calistria probably likes honeycakes and blesses anyone who makes them. But beyond that there's probably a whole host of minor saints, blessed spirits, and whatnot that aren't mentioned for lack of space. For example, if I say that there's Bonegrinder the breadmaking ogre who's part of Urgathoa's extended entourage, it makes logical sense, and moreover would be a great patron for a CE baker, assuming I wanted to have one.
Thoughts?
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Erastil might fit in there with the farming and community angle, but that has some of the same problems as Abadar, though a character taking a pantheistic approach to worship would have an easier time of it.
Hate to play to the stereotype, but a halfling god/dess for this sort of thing just feels right.
But perhaps the "god by bread-type" approach is the best way to go. Though Cayden might have an unhealthy focus on beerbread and pretzels.
Maybe bakers are a godless people in Golarion?
Though, for some reason Confectioners and Bakers seem like Desna folk to me. But no real reason just a gut *snicker* feeling.
Greg
A question just came up in my game, followed by a seemingly correct but unsatisfying solution, followed by some more speculation and then a related question.
The question was from one of my players, who's a fighter but rather obsessed with baking as he's from a family of bakers and intends, once he's sought his fortune, to retire to start his own bakery and also use the recipes he's learned in his travel.
The Question: Who is the god of bakers in Golarion?
My Answer: Abadar, who's the god of banking and civilization. Bread is a nickname for money and all cities require bakeries to function.
Why this is vaguely unsatisfying: Why should a CG character have to worship a LN god to pursue his passion?
I then came across a related question when a friend had her washing machine die and she was planning to make a shrine to St. Jude on the new one which couldn't be installed yet due to rusty pipe, and I started wondering which Catholic saint presided over washing machines or laundry in general. I guessed it might be St. Veronica, who had the miraculous veil which she used as a towel, but I of course went to look it up and I found there were no less than five Catholic saints in charge of laundresses. St. Veronica was only one, and she split her duties by also taking care of photographers, but while St. Martha, St. Lawrence, and St. Clare of Assisi all had laundry lists of professions who could pray to them, only St. Hunna showed the dedication to be the Holy Washerwoman and only preside over laundresses.
I'm thinking it must be a similar situation with the gods in Golarion. Abadar is the god of bread and breadmakers insomuch as bread is part of civilization and commerce. Urgathoa can probably claim some baking duties as well as goddess of feasting and the whole "I'll grind his bones to make my bread" shtick. Even Calistria probably likes honeycakes and blesses anyone who makes them. But beyond that there's probably a whole host of minor saints, blessed...
I'd be almost inclined to come up with a collection of petty (demi) gods and household gods to fit into these sorts of niches. Perhaps they are simply cohorts to the major gods. Maybe they are lesser powers (Empereal Lords, First Worlders) re-imagined to fit these niches. From my perspective it would be much like the minor gods worshiped by the Romans. You don't hear about them as much as the more popular gods because only very specific groups gave them any abecyance, but they were there. Pratog the god of bakers and millers in Galt may not be worshiped in Taldor where the god of bakers there is Lamalon. Pratog may fall under the purview of Erastil (perhaps he's an ally or a cohort) while Lamalon falls under Abadar.
Just a thought. It would most likely be the approach I'd use in game.
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Cayden seems like a good choice for a CG baker. He's found a use for yeast that doesn't involve hops and barley, but he's still 'brewing' up something that puts a smile on faces just the same (and will help to cure hangovers, he insists! Eat some warm rolls or biscuits and drink some water before you go to bed, and he guarantees that you won't wake up with a sour stomach or a pounding head!).
There's quite a few old standbys that don't have much deific representation in 'the big 20.'
Gozreh can be a 'skyfather' (Zeus, Odin), but there's no 'king of the gods' or 'father figure.' There's no one creator god (Ptah).
There's no queen of the gods / goddess of marriage (Hera, Frigga, etc.). Indeed, none of the big 20 goddesses are married, and only one of the big 20 gods, and it, amusingly, *isn't* the god of families, who, if he has any kids, is apparently a deadbeat dad.
There's no god(dess) of crafts (Athena). (Torag, as god of the forge, is a suitable stand in for Hephaestus, 'though.)
There's no god(dess) of hearth and home (Hestia). (Erastil, a god of community and family, but not so much the home itself.)
No specific deity of wisdom (Athena) or medicine (Apollo or Aesculapius) or strength (Herakles).
No 'messenger of the gods' (Iris, Hermes, Hermod), although if Achaekek served in that role, I'd find it terribly amusing.
I suspect that, to a certain extent, the Paizo folk made a conscious choice to not include that sort of thing, or to follow too closely the 'standard pantheons' of the Greeks, Egyptians, Norse, etc. since they wanted to blaze their own trail, so to speak, rather than just have the faux Greek or faux Norse pantheon.
Maybe the big 20 pantheon would feel a little more internally consistent, if, after they were individually written up, someone had come along and drawn some ties between them. Abadar and Calistria, for instance, would make a fascinating couple, apparently utterly at odds, and yet completely willing to make exceptions to their own idealogies to spend time together (like Wee Jas and Norebo, from Greyhawk). Torag could end up as the god of family, since he's actually got one, and Erastil could be more of a lone wolf figure, a male Artemis, the chaste god of the hunt. Desna could be the mother of Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon, less mentioned in the texts than their ill-fated father. Pharasma and Gozreh could be sister and, uh, sister/brother, and both take equally seriously their removal from the moral and ethical hair-pulling and jumping about that the other gods are engaged in, focused so tightly are they on their respective duties.
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If I were a baker in Golarion, I would give thanks to Abadar for steady customers, Cayden for the simple pleasures in a slice of pie, Desna for the baking turned out right, Erastil and Gozreh for the wheat, Sarenrae for the warm sun, Shelyn for the skill, Torag and Brigh for the anvil upon which I craft my works.
I would leave offerings to the Eldest's children (the fey) on my doorstep at night, along with fresh milk, so as to gain their favor, as I would leave out sesame cakes for the crows so they can watch over my home for the Empyreal Lord Andoletta. If my bread is burnt, I would be humbled and make an offering to Ymeri, Queen of the Inferno, and in the long nights of winter, I would make loaves of dark rye to give away to the needy so they do not become one of Urgathoa's hungry dead in the cold night.
...If I were a baker in Golarion, that is. :D
Why this is vaguely unsatisfying: Why should a CG character have to worship a LN god to pursue his passion?
Why this is baffling me: Why is that character forced to worship that LN god?
And how is this different from so many other things?
I'm sure there are lawful brewers who like their work, but Cayden Cailean is chaotic.
I'm sure not all chaotic hunters worship Erastil just because he's the god of the hunt.
We can go on and find lots and lots of things that can be enjoyed/believed in by characters of most if not all alignments but are overlooked by deities that have a specific alignment.
First of all, you don't have to have the same alignment as the deity. Clerics have alignment restrictions relative to their deity's, but they are those who have to live up to the ideals of their faith and embody them, and that includes most or even all of the ideals, and a more serious devotion that is expected from a lay worshipper. A CG character could totally worship a LN deity if that deity happens to be patron of a concept the character strongly believes in, despite their alignment differences.
And beyond that is the fact that you don't have to choose your alignment OR patron deity based on your profession. There might be carpenters worshipping Cayden Cailean because they believe in freedom, or city guards who like to pray to Desna because she's lady luck, even when the worst threat they're ever going to face is a mean drunk who'll throw a punch.
Check out the Empyreal Lords...
Ashave the True Spark mentioned in Pathfinder #2 (Skinshaw Murders).
Though there is no other info given, it strikes me as quite possible that Ashave is the Empyreal Lord of the Hearth. This being is worshiped in Magnimar. There is also Grandmother Crow, Andoletta, who is a patron of families and homes.
Creative Director
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A baker doesn't have to worship a deity of his own alignment.
The more devout a baker is, the more likely he'll be to be close to his deity's alignment, but that doesn't mean a baker needs to be devout. Likewise, a baker doesn't have to worship one deity. He can worship several or even all of them—you can worship all 20 core deities and be VERY religious, after all. You just can't be a cleric and do that.
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A truly devout baker would pay homage to Lilith, the Demon Queen of Victuals. Clearly.
One possibility you might want to explore is that while Aroden himself might have taken on the role of patron for bakers, crafts, marriage, etc... he also might have had other subordinate gods in addition to Iomedae that took on these roles, and that these gods also died or disappeared when he did.
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I honestly just always assumed some of that more specific stuff like what Saints cover would be covered by minor gods. Of which there could be hundreds, I mean no one that I recall from Paizo has said they would never add another couple of minor gods if things came up. That and the stuff in Set's list I just in my own games was going to give to or create some minor gods for.
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Maybe a lot of those "blank slate" Celestial Lords/Empyreals and their neutral and evil counterparts could make for good "oddjob specific" gods and saints, for whatever they sound appropriate.
I was about to try and think of a named Aeon from Bestiary 2 that could fit the role of "Saint of doors/portals", but then I remembered there's actually a real god for that already. :)
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I suspect that, to a certain extent, the Paizo folk made a conscious choice to not include that sort of thing, or to follow too closely the 'standard pantheons' of the Greeks, Egyptians, Norse, etc. since they wanted to blaze their own trail, so to speak, rather than just have the faux Greek or faux Norse pantheon.
I think they've actually mentioned that, avoiding a direct pantheon port in favor of something new. I'm not 100% certain but I think there was also something said about all of the big 20 being fitting adventurer deities, at least moreso than types like Arshea or Findeladlara. IIRC that is.
Why this is vaguely unsatisfying: Why should a CG character have to worship a LN god to pursue his passion?Why this is baffling me: Why is that character forced to worship that LN god?
+1 and to add: how does the baker know that Abadar is LN? Did he look him up in the Deities & Demigods at the local bookstore? :)
+1 and to add: how does the baker know that Abadar is LN? Did he look him up in the Deities & Demigods at the local bookstore? :)
Why this is vaguely unsatisfying: Why should a CG character have to worship a LN god to pursue his passion?Why this is baffling me: Why is that character forced to worship that LN god?
He knows Abadar's LN from attending a church service and listening to the priests describe various miracles and tales of the god. Plus I think it would be right there in the catechism that Abadar cares naught for Good or Evil, only Law, the solid cornerstone upon which all civilization is built, etc.
As for knowing he's CG? That's roleplaying, but if a character doesn't click with a certain faith, that's more roleplaying.
Besides which, there's another character who's a follower of Abadar and it's fun to let them play off each other.
A truly devout baker would pay homage to Lilith, the Demon Queen of Victuals. Clearly.
Victuals. I had to look that one up. Nice. It sounds surprisingly dirty. I have to remember that.
Filed under the same file as "masticate"
Always masticate your victuals thoroughly.
I like the idea of outsiders taking up roles in worship for aspects of life like those described in the thread. I mean, yeah, the Romans had a god for this, that, and every little thing, but that would really seem to bog a game down.
Perhaps ancestor worship would be a way to do an end-run around the problem. Many people follow in the footsteps of their parents. ("I am a baker, like my father before me, and his father before him...") So why not pray for guidance from those that came before, the ones that would have a vested interest in those traditions and ways being carried on properly?
A truly devout baker would pay homage to Lilith, the Demon Queen of Victuals. Clearly.Victuals. I had to look that one up. Nice. It sounds surprisingly dirty. I have to remember that.
Filed under the same file as "masticate"
Hi KayYoss,
haben wir aber auch: Viktualienmarkt, München
A truly devout baker would pay homage to Lilith, the Demon Queen of Victuals. Clearly.Victuals. I had to look that one up. Nice. It sounds surprisingly dirty. I have to remember that.
Filed under the same file as "masticate"
Hi KayYoss,
haben wir aber auch: Viktualienmarkt, München
I know. Well, can't know every single word. Every education has its gaps. I would tell you about all the words I don't know, but I don't know what they are. :)
I was about to try and think of a named Aeon from Bestiary 2 that could fit the role of "Saint of doors/portals", but then I remembered there's actually a real god for that already. :)
Not anymore. Aoskar died centuries ago.
Cayden Cailean
After all Beer is liquid bread.
From my observation from reading the material, I'd think the baker in question would probably thank a number of deities (Abador and Erastil certainly).
However using the Catholics saints as examples isn't quite a same ... as saints are not worshipped but venerated. Interestingly there does seem to be something similar with Golarion. There's mention of various Saints who seem to be venerated (rather than worshipped) as well as some Saints who have risen to be gods or goddesses (Milani for instance). There's another saint mentioned in on of the Carrion Crown modules that was listed as minor ... but I can't remember where I saw it. I definitely got the impression that these "saints" were not deities but mortals who fell under the domain of one of the gods. Did not Iomedae start out as a saint of Aroden before being raised to godhood?