This came up in our game last night and I was wanting to get some clarification.
The PC's encountered a creature which has no recorded history. It existed and died even before the elves of the world had even started recording their history (so around 30,000 years), and the elves have the oldest recorded history in the world.
My argument (as the GM) was that you can't make a knowledge check to discern a creature's abilities if there is NO WAY you have ever studied such a creature from books, folk tales or the like.
My players argument was that knowledge checks are not just based on historical fact and folklore, but educated guesses (which, apparently, can be made in only six seconds of studying a creature in the first round of combat) that help you discern its abilities.
So, who is right, or are we both wrong, or what? Any help would be appreciated.
Your argument says that we can't make a knowledge check about dinosaurs, because dinosaurs lived and died before recorded history.
Now, do you know what a Tyrannosaurus Rex is, and what it can do?
How about a Brontosaurus? Triceratops?
How did you possibly make that Knowledge check?
ergo, yes, just because something is extinct doesn't mean you can't study and infer. Now, the DC of it may be high, 30+, but you have to remember, DC's of 30+ are basically divine level intelligence checks...think Reed Richards, who in instants of studying something can make all sorts of inferences about it.
That's what your players are doing.
==Aelryinth
Your argument says that we can't make a knowledge check about dinosaurs, because dinosaurs lived and died before recorded history.
Now, do you know what a Tyrannosaurus Rex is, and what it can do?
How about a Brontosaurus? Triceratops?
How did you possibly make that Knowledge check?
ergo, yes, just because something is extinct doesn't mean you can't study and infer. Now, the DC of it may be high, 30+, but you have to remember, DC's of 30+ are basically divine level intelligence checks...think Reed Richards, who in instants of studying something can make all sorts of inferences about it.
That's what your players are doing.
==Aelryinth
But we've had time to study dinosaurs. We have a fossil record, and tons of research has been done. This was the first time this creature has been seen in thousands of years and no one alive has ever studied it. This creature has no fossil record. I can see basic knowledge, just like if your a biologist, and you see a T-Rex for the first time..."Its a carnivore, based on the tooth structure and it's forearms were most likely useless" but I really can't see anyone making anymore judgements about said creature without having years to study it.
You're completely disregarding the superhuman aspect of a 30 Int and all them damn ranks in Knowledge skills.
He's inferring by similarity, by superhuman intellect, judgement, analytical ability, and so forth. WHat level characters are you talking about? You do know 'real world' stops at level 6, right? So if you have a bunch of 10th+ characters making checks, they know more about the subject then what we would consider humanly possible for their level of technology.
The answer is to set the DC to where you feel comfortable. But don't set it out of reach. You can control what they learn and know (no, they aren't going to learn its mating ritual), but basic information obtained by observation and analysis, accompanied by superhuman skill and intellect? Totally possible.
And besides, you're forgetting one thing: Knowledge also comes from outsiders, like angels and devils, and they were there before that thing was born and after it went extinct. It's just a 'cute old tale' to them...totally possible to stumble across it in "The Astral Deva's Guide to Extinct Horrors."
==Aelryinth
I am going to have to go along with the half of Aelryinth's point that you did not comment on. Just following the rules as written you would make the DC of the check for a particuluarly rare creature would 15+CR. There isn't a caveat in the rules for a creature that no one knows, your PC is knowledgable in all creatures of that type... he won't know everything about it with a successful check he would know one piece of useful info about that creature... for every 5 points he exceeds the check one additional piece of useful info.
"I have no idea what that thing is, but it looks like it is adapted similar to creatures that are immune to fire, it is likely immune as well."
They still don't know what it is, but they got a piece of useful info.
15+CR is a tough check, if you have someone who has a +4 int bonus, class skill bonus, and has been putting ranks in the skill at every level, they still have 8 or higher for a creature with a CR = to the party. If this was a big bad creature (CR+4) it is 12 or higher.
You COULD say that this is tougher to know about than even the most mythical and unkown of creatures like the tarresque (used as an example in the book) so give it a 20+CR check... but I would kind of recommend against this. It is bad form as a DM to take away the PCs abilities. If they have been putting significant resources into identifying creatures of this type, like putting ranks in at every level or choosing a class like bard or inquisitor for bonuses, it can be a blow if the DM just keeps changing things to account for the bonuses they get... it's the same and just saying that class doesn't get an ability.
My suggestion is use how phrase the piece or two of useful information that you choose to give them in such a way as to play up just how unknown and special this thing is... otherwise they can't know how interesting it is with out you telling them out of character.
"This creature is not one you have ever heard of. It's morphology is similar to some fossils that have been discovered that are 30,000+ years old, but this creature is even stranger than those. It's frills and gill slits give away that it is a semi-aquatic creature that will be just as at home in the water as out (has a swim speed), and the sizzle of the leave below it's mouth suggest enough strong acid that it may even have an acid based breath weapon."
Your characters getting more information in game that they think they pulled out of you with their skills is all win. You get to tell them things about your interesting monster that there is no way would come into play otherwise and they get to feel that investment in abilities was well spent.
(edit: no idea why this post changed my avatar)
Sean Mahoney
You do know 'real world' stops at level 6, right? So if you have a bunch of 10th+ characters making checks, they know more about the subject then what we would consider humanly possible for their level of technology.
While I agree with your overall point, I am unsure where you are getting the 'real world' stops at level 6 thing comes from and am curious enough to ask... where did it come from?
Sean Mahoney
You're completely disregarding the superhuman aspect of a 30 Int and all them damn ranks in Knowledge skills.
He's inferring by similarity, by superhuman intellect, judgement, analytical ability, and so forth. WHat level characters are you talking about? You do know 'real world' stops at level 6, right? So if you have a bunch of 10th+ characters making checks, they know more about the subject then what we would consider humanly possible for their level of technology.
The answer is to set the DC to where you feel comfortable. But don't set it out of reach. You can control what they learn and know (no, they aren't going to learn its mating ritual), but basic information obtained by observation and analysis, accompanied by superhuman skill and intellect? Totally possible.
And besides, you're forgetting one thing: Knowledge also comes from outsiders, like angels and devils, and they were there before that thing was born and after it went extinct. It's just a 'cute old tale' to them...totally possible to stumble across it in "The Astral Deva's Guide to Extinct Horrors."
==Aelryinth
You can't set the DC on knowledge checks on creatures. Its 10 plus their CR to know what the creature is, and then for every 5 you get over, you get to know a single ability the creature has. There's no magic number that I can set the DC at, since by the RAW, its entirely based on CR, not a magical number that the GM wants to set it at. This is what I have a problem with.
And as far as the outsider knowledge, if the character has never spoken to or spent time with an outsider, then he/she has no idea what said outsiders know about other creatures.
And as far your argument that 10th+ characters are somehow superhuman, no where in the rules does it say "Okay, once your characters hit 10th level, stop treating them like just powerful people and start treating them like superheroes." I don't agree with that and it makes no sense to me. With that argument, it would be like saying that if you have a 20th level wizard with a 10 intelligence, just because he is 20th level, but can't cast spells, he's superhumanly powerful, which is crap.
Calibrating Your Expectations.
Interesting, but I still think it is just a simulation of a cinematic and magical world... trying to compare it to the real world... it just doesn't fly for me... but I do appreciate the link. Interesting read.
Sean Mahoney
You can't set the DC on knowledge checks on creatures. Its 10 plus their CR to know what the creature is, and then for every 5 you get over, you get to know a single ability the creature has. There's no magic number that I can set the DC at, since by the RAW, its entirely based on CR, not a magical number that the GM wants to set it at. This is what I have a problem with.
The RAW does indeed allow the DM to set the DC. As written there are three DC's for creatures (and the DM decides which applies).
Particularly common creatures are DC 5+CR
Most creatures are DC 10+CR
Particularly rare creatures are DC 15+CR
I don't think it is unreasonable that a DM could say that his creature is uniquely rare and has no myths around it and go to DC 20+CR... but again, as above, I would not recommend it and it isn't RAW.
It's also important to note that it isn't that you know one of their abilities on a success, but one piece of useful information. That could be just that they really like a certain piece of food (and would go after it instead of the party) or that they hunt in packs and only one shows itself while the others circle around. Abilities certaily work for useful info, but the DM is not limited to them.
Likewise, you shouldn't give out some useless ability the creature has and steal the PCs success on a roll.
Sean Mahoney
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You do know 'real world' stops at level 6, right? So if you have a bunch of 10th+ characters making checks, they know more about the subject then what we would consider humanly possible for their level of technology.While I agree with your overall point, I am unsure where you are getting the 'real world' stops at level 6 thing comes from and am curious enough to ask... where did it come from?
Sean Mahoney
Basically, there's a post on the En World boards where they go through and compare skill checks to what human beings at the World Record level are actually capable of.
It works out to about level 6. Which makes sense. And notes that max human stats is about 21-23 or so, with Skill Focus or feats making up any difference.
And a 20th level wizard with 10 Int can pick up his arsenal of staves and use them at CL 20. He can metamagic a Cantrip into a 9th level spell. He'll have on average 70 Hit points before Con and is harder to beat down then a brick wall. He's got a BAB of 10 and moves faster and more assuredly in hand to hand combat then the greatest martial art master alive. He can Power Attack and dent stone...multiple times a round. He can have 20 ranks in Jump and from a standing jump clear thirty feet, better then an Olympic Long jumper. He can climb a brick wall about as fast as he can walk. He can pull some obscure fact out of nowhere on some esoteric topic ("How did he know the kids where I lived called me Wartrump when I was a kid?!?") because he's got the ranks where it's all possible.
==
You can set the CR of anything to anythign...you are the DM. Very Rare pops it up a notch in difficulty.
And what are you talking about, having spoken to an outsider? I referenced the "Astral Deva's Guide to Extinct Horrors," the first edition of which came out 3,124 years ago, dictated by Oristrmin the Astral Warden, and has been reprinted faithfully ever since. Making pictures of the Extinct Horrors keeps a lot of artists employed, and everyone's favorite is the Ginormous Grund, with his oversized jaws and fifteen legs, although there's a big dustup in the wizardly community over whether he was black with red stripes or red with black stripes, and the Devas are just amused about it all...kids make plushie toys of the Grund and fight the Rocathion Mulg and Exbachs the Vids.
Oh, you mean Exbachs the Vids are BACK? Oh, lemme go get my copy of the Guide! Haven't read it since I was six, you know...
i.e. treat them like dinosaurs, with the caveat that if you really want to know more, you can call up an Angel who was there and chat with them!
This is the kind of shiznit that happens in a magical universe.
==Aelryinth