|
Thrusting is one of the more lethal things you can do with a staff. They're worked into the routines with good reason.Sorry, I am as familiar with the 'routines' as you are, and frankly the damage yield just doesn't compare. They aren't worked in as a show stopper, but usually to check the opponent and keep them where you want them in order to carry out a more substantial blow.
It's basically a spear minus the bit of metal on the end, which is something you only keep around so you don't have to keep fiddling with the sharp point of your stick, and the spear was one of the most dominant weapons in history. Because of poking people at a distance, it's the same principle, only with a blunted impact area, which is still incredibly lethal. Like hammers, only with less energy, and more reach.
The biggest problem with a strike like that is it's incredibly easy to avoid or parry, narrow strike zone.
Way to massively understate the value of having a sharp point on the end of said 'stick'.
Thats like saying 'it is basically a gun, just minus the bullets' as though that is a minor omission.
Hmmmm.. got a favorite vegetable for testing that idea out on?
Vegetables aren't really good for showing the effects of a weapon. Muscle and bone wont be nearly as deeply penetrated as a watermelon on a 'poke', and nor will the same said watermelon demonstrate the value of blunt force trauma on the tissue.
Poking somone with a pool cue is just not going to hurt as much as swinging that baby at them and enjoying the leverage and bodyweight in motion. Same same with a bat.
Would you say an arrow without a head is just a stick?
Travelling with significant speed and force, but a stick nonetheless.
If you were going to be hit with an arrow would you prefer a lump of sharpened steel or just a blunt chunk of wood?
Vegetables aren't really good for showing the effects of a weapon. Muscle and bone wont be nearly as deeply penetrated as a watermelon on a 'poke', and nor will the same said watermelon demonstrate the value of blunt force trauma on the tissue.
Well orphan children are out of season, and the x ray machine is in the shop anyway.
Poking someone with a pool cue is just not going to hurt as much as swinging that baby at them and enjoying the leverage and bodyweight in motion. Same same with a bat.
The difference is that while you have far less force on the staff that is thrust than the one that's swung its concentrated into a FAR smaller area.
You can't really thrust very well with a pool cue. Its far too thin and is likely to snap if you really hit someone anything less than absolutely dead on
The steel. If I live through it, I'm less likely to have painful splinters everywhere.
You know, there's a reason they put a bunch of sharpened steel on the end, and it's not because it avoids the enemy getting splinters.
|
|
The steel. If I live through it, I'm less likely to have painful splinters everywhere.You know, there's a reason they put a bunch of sharpened steel on the end, and it's not because it avoids the enemy getting splinters.
Look, the point of using a staff instead of a spear, is to try not killing the person you are beating senseless to begin with, but you still want to cause enough damage to get them to stop. A poke that shatters ribs and knocks the air out of them (if they have any) does that very well.
Right.
The 'sharp one' will do more damage and kill them.
|
|
You know, there's a reason they put a bunch of sharpened steel on the end, and it's not because it avoids the enemy getting splinters.
You know I'm deployed, where the bandwidth is limited, and I'm at work, where Youtube is blocked, right?
Whatever your link displays, I was responding to your equivalance of 'tipless spear = gun without bullets'. Which is wrong. You can still kill a man with a thrusting pole.
You know I'm deployed, where the bandwidth is limited, and I'm at work, where Youtube is blocked, right?
No, wasn't aware of all those factoids, because as much as you are a swellegant guy I am not privy to your day to day activities, location, and availability of tech. If I was, then your INT guys need to re-examine OPSEC.
What are you saying? Can't kill someone with an empty firearm?
It was a couple of archers hanging around (redneck hunter types) who have obviously convinced their drunk buddy to go hang downrange while they hit him with a blunt arrow. Aside from looking like it hurts a lot, he still walked it off.
|
These aren't minmaxing, but funmaxing.
Is dealing with broken spellbooks fun? No. You never found it fun. Be honest. Unless you like being mean to others (you aren't wizard) but that messes with their fun.
So here's my question...when should we put aside the "fun" to have any sort of vague realism. I mean, is it really fun to take damage? Maybe we should eliminate the bad guys having the ability to do hit point damage. And having your character be adversely affected in any way isn't really all that fun, maybe we could eliminate that. Hell, failing at anything you try to do isn't really fun. Maybe we can replace the entire Core Rulebook with a single sentence:
Anything that the PCs attempt to do, they are successful at.
Of course, that's not really fun because it's kinda boring. Wait, why bother playing this damn game to begin with?
Anything that the PCs attempt to do, they are successful at.
Nobody is allowed to 'fail' anymore. All participants are 'winners' and they should all recieve trophies and gold stars just for participating.
Mediocrity is the new standard, and every player should feel warm and special.
:p
|
|
No, wasn't aware of all those factoids, because as much as you are a swellegant guy I am not privy to your day to day activities, location, and availability of tech. If I was, then your INT guys need to re-examine OPSEC.What are you saying? Can't kill someone with an empty firearm?
It was a couple of archers hanging around (redneck hunter types) who have obviously convinced their drunk buddy to go hang downrange while they hit him with a blunt arrow. Aside from looking like it hurts a lot, he still walked it off.
You must be reading the wrong threads then.
Sounds like an interesting video. I'll have to let it load overnight. :P
there are three seperate topics in the forum right now which show that it's possible to optimize beyond min-maxing
Those topics are1.) Allowing characters to take Charisma as a dump stat, but not penalizing them for it - after they use it as a dump stat, they ought to be able to say that their character is attractive and, thereby, gain positive modifiers to social encounters
2.) Allowing a Wizard to collect a god-like spell book without having to worry about keeping it safe
3.) Allowing a character to optimize towards big weapons and never have to worry about the down side of when those weapons shouldn't be usable (due to space requirements)
In all three cases, rather than min-maxing, the character maxes and then demands that the GM sweep the min under the rug where it will never be seen.
Am I simply old school? Does all the passion with which these things are argued influence the game designers? Does it indicate the future direction of the game?
What it indicates is the desire for wish fulfilment, to take actions and decisions and not have to deal with the consequences. The "Is (insert dubious ethical action here) evil?" posts and the "Why can't I use intimidate without a negative reaction?" threads we had a while back show the same trend.
Sure you can play any way your GM let's you, I'm just not sure it'sgood for either the game or even the players to have an "I can do whatever I want and you can't stop me." attitude.
On a personal note, I enjoy a little challenge for my PC, it keeps the game from getting boring/predictable.
Some of you really love me.
LilithsThrall wrote:
In all three cases, rather than min-maxing, the character maxes and then demands that the GM sweep the min under the rug where it will never be seen.Where have you seen all this? According to people like you, my group is a bunch of optimising non-roleplayers who desecrate the game with their very existence, but I haven't experienced any of the things you complain about.
If your whole group has a set of house rules that you all agree on then the OP you quoted here is not aimed at you.
The posts LT mentions, and those in my post usually consist of a player trying to gain support to overturn the decisions of his "unfair" GM who ,against all reason, enforces the rules of the game.
|
|
Sorry, I am as familiar with the 'routines' as you are, and frankly the damage yield just doesn't compare. They aren't worked in as a show stopper, but usually to check the opponent and keep them where you want them in order to carry out a more substantial blow.
so what's it like not knowing what you're talking about?
i can stand in a balanced stance,with a long grip, pivot my hips, with a in a semi circle arc lift you off you feet, probably killing you in the process. to give a visual, imagine holding a spear/staff, with the majority of the shaft in front of you, digging into your ribs, and forcing the shaft into your diaphragm. i know this because i train for a living with martial weapons. it would obliterate ANYONE and the upward motion would bypass most armors in the process.
|
|
We don't play with houserules, we just don't like jerkass DMs who break suspension of disbelief by having NPCs target a wizard's spellbook just to screw the character over.If your whole group has a set of house rules that you all agree on then the OP you quoted here is not aimed at you.
The posts LT mentions, and those in my post usually consist of a player trying to gain support to overturn the decisions of his "unfair" GM who ,against all reason, enforces the rules of the game.
it is a legitimate strategy that a real flesh and blood person would employ in the same scenario. it is up to the player to safe guard an achilles heel, like for instance the core feat that allows the players INT in saved spells that dont require a book. this is one of the BEST feats for any level 10+ wizard to invest in.
As long as the end result is a fun game I am ok with anything the GM throws at us, every GM I play with does things a bit differently but none of them are wrong.. well not completely wrong anyway.
I would make a distinction between a common 5'hallway and an underground passage left by a burrowing animal that tends to be a bit narrow to the top with roots hanging from the 'ceiling'. In this case I am likely to say some weapons are harder to use, while most piercing or small weapons have little problem in use.
Stealing a spellbook is not something I would do lightly, much like I have an agreement with my players not to have any pc or creatures focused on sundering weapons through feats, because it gets to be bad-fun fast, though sometimes it is an intrinsic part of the creature like a nightshade and will make the creature particulary scary/memorable.
The PCs might have been particulary rude to a somewhat petty, but powerful noble refusing him something he wants, the noble not used to being denied plans to use them anyway. I might have a ninja stealing a wizard's spellbook passing himself off as a member of the local thieves guild asking for a favor of the PCs in return for the book, either the noble gets his favor or the PCs might make a rage attack on the local guild either or both which benefits the noble, depending on their attitude and resourcefulness they might or might not get the book back. This might be considered a dick move by many, but most players at my table will understand I do not intend to leave the wizard player permanently crippled however this plays out or make this a common occurence, having the player count on a few choice spells/scrolls and wands for a few sessions is hardly a big deal.
A low charisma 7 character would not be considered attractive, while she might be considered fairly beautiful do not describe her as hauntingly beautiful or anything that ought to leave a deep impression on people she meets. Above average beauty is fine, she does not have to be ugly but there ought to be a reason for that low charisma.
Sorry, I am as familiar with the 'routines' as you are, and frankly the damage yield just doesn't compare. They aren't worked in as a show stopper, but usually to check the opponent and keep them where you want them in order to carry out a more substantial blow.
so what's it like not knowing what you're talking about?
i can stand in a balanced stance,with a long grip, pivot my hips, with a in a semi circle arc lift you off you feet, probably killing you in the process. to give a visual, imagine holding a spear/staff, with the majority of the shaft in front of you, digging into your ribs, and forcing the shaft into your diaphragm. i know this because i train for a living with martial weapons. it would obliterate ANYONE and the upward motion would bypass most armors in the process.
Even if true it still severly limits your attack options and how fast you can follow up with your attacks that might well translate in a penalty to hit, the weapon is just not optimal for the situation. Against an intelligent fighter this will rpobably make it even worse because he might recognize your limited options and make it particulary easy to avoid your attacks and exploit your vulnerabilities.
We don't play with houserules, we just don't like jerkass DMs who break suspension of disbelief by having NPCs target a wizard's spellbook just to screw the character over.
NPCs have every right to target what they like. Each decent NPC will have their own knowledge base, tactics and abilities. An enemy NPCs job is to screw over the character. An intelligent NPC with knowledge of Wizards and an oportunity would definately nick/destroy a high level wizards spellbook. It's the wizards job to eliminate the opportunity. It's the players job to ensure their wizard has his back covered. It's not the GMs job to protect the character from NPCs.
A GMs job is play NPCs in character and to ensure that at the very least the story and repercusions are memorable and dramatic.
|
|
Even if true it still severly limits your attack options and how fast you can follow up with your attacks that might well translate in a penalty to hit, the weapon is just not optimal for the situation. Against an intelligent fighter this will rpobably make it even worse because he might recognize your limited options and make it particulary easy to avoid your attacks and exploit your vulnerabilities.
yet again you misunderstand how to use the weapon in question. i can use a liner pattern, like in a tunnel, with a staff/spear by attacking different points on the body. for example:
taking a long grip, strike the feet,yes this is a fully legit target, the follow up with a strike to the head, the change grips to a short hand (equal amounts of the shaft on both sides of the grip), step in and strike you in the groin(in an upward motion). ALL while fully defending my self from your attacks.
you will NEVER win this discussion, not that its a win or lose type thing, but you're talking to someone who knows: staff; spear; sword; sectional staff; and a bunch of non effective "movie weapons" like the butterfly knives and nunchaku... which trust me i wish i never learned how to use them lol. the point that im making is FORGET ALL THE BULL CRAP YOU HAVE SEEN IN MOVIES!!!! because cinema is designed to be flashy and eye catching, very rarely will you see something that is actually effective. And unfortunately most people base their opinions on what they see in the movies. /sigh...
so what's it like not knowing what you're talking about?
I guess we are lucky you trained with Shaolin Monks up in the Hills whilst you were on assignment from your Navy SEALS gig and crosstraining with Spetznaz. I didn't realise I was in the presence of a hardened Bullshidoshi.
|
|
[When? Seriously, when have people deliberately gone after something their enemies don't use in battle, IN BATTLE? I mean, it's one thing to attack an army's supplies to weaken it, it's completely different to be engaged in a battle with said army, and stop targeting the soldiers in favour of trying to get to the supplies. An in regards to stealing it, why specifically steal a spellbook and not the warriors' weapons?
... really do you think that wizards are some secret in the world of pathfinder?do you think that a rival wizard wont think... hmm i need to nuter these guys who are trying to kill me. that a wizard, or even a fighter with half a brain will say "i can take that wizard out of the equation by taking that book". if you really think people in the world dont know the achilles heel of wizards, you play in a very dumb world my friend.
|
|
so what's it like not knowing what you're talking about?I guess we are lucky you trained with Shaolin Monks up in the Hills whilst you were on assignment from your Navy SEALS gig and crosstraining with Spetznaz. I didn't realise I was in the presence of a hardened Bullshidoshi.
actually i trained at tracy's karate in vacaville. its kenpo jujitsu and one of the best fighting arts in the world. i don't train with shaolin (xaiolin) monks at all, noar am i a navy seal. im sorry that you were called on your bull crap, but talking out of your ass is way to common on the internet and it annoys me greatly. Especially when it comes to martial arts, the thing i love only less then my family.
When? Seriously, when have people deliberately gone after something their enemies don't use in battle, IN BATTLE? I mean, it's one thing to attack an army's supplies to weaken it, it's completely different to be engaged in a battle with said army, and stop targeting the soldiers in favour of trying to get to the supplies. An in regards to stealing it, why specifically steal a spellbook and not the warriors' weapons?
When they want to cripple you for the NEXT BATTLE. That's why we bomb airfields. Attack supply lines. Enforce no fly zones. Search people at the door of dodgy clubs and confiscate harmful objects. Most NPCs should expect to live to fight again, or else they would all be suicide squads.
I'm not saying every NPC should, or does, do this, but if they know the PCs are coming and have the resources then they should do what they can to protect themselves. This may include taking the Fighters sword, offering the Rogue a bribe, poisoning the inn food or taking the wizards big book of blam. If all these items are "off the table" because it wouldn't be "fair" then a good possible sense of tension and drama evaporates.
|
|
This may include taking the Fighters sword, offering the Rogue a bribe, poisoning the inn food or taking the wizards big book of blam. If all these items are "off the table" because it wouldn't be "fair" then a good possible sense of tension and drama evaporates.
my personal favorite is to disrupt the clerics hour of meditation, and put contact poison on the fighters weapons lol, then switch out the mages book with one full of jokes, man that never gets old!!
my personal favorite is to disrupt the clerics hour of meditation, and put contact poison on the fighters weapons lol, then switch out the mages book with one full of jokes, man that never gets old!!
While I would say that a GM timing a "random" encounter to purposely interrupt a cleric's prayer time is questionable, I also wouldn't ensure that his prayer time was "protected". If players know that nothing attacks between 07:00 and 08:00 then everyone can get a cup of tea and takes out the Beano, no need to keep watches.
|
|
While I would say that a GM timing a "random" encounter to purposely interrupt a cleric's prayer time is questionable, I also wouldn't ensure that his prayer time was "protected". If players know that nothing attacks between 07:00 and 08:00 then everyone can get a cup of tea and takes out the Beano, no need to keep watches.
i would disagree, if you have someone watching you through your window, and you see the person with the holy symbols all over his body meditating... its kinda obvious that they are doing what you think they are doing...
remember that an npc with a 23 INT is smarter then an living human on earth. so why would it be so hard to believe that a rogue/bard/wizard with knowledge EVERYTHING, wouldnt be able to devise a plan that would hemmorage the parties ability to fight? now i will say that doing this to a level 5 group is over board, but a near epic level party has no such defense.
|
When they want to cripple you for the NEXT BATTLE. That's why we bomb airfields. Attack supply lines. Enforce no fly zones. Search people at the door of dodgy clubs and confiscate harmful objects. Most NPCs should expect to live to fight again, or else they would all be suicide squads.The reason supply lines are attacked is also that they're usually not as well defended as the actual army (given that the army is, well, the army). When someone has the choice between attacking a soldier who's about the to kill them, or targeting something which can make said soldier worse off in the future, I have never heard of anyone choosing not to try to kill the soldier, if for no other reason than they want to live.
I guess if an enemy with lots of expendable henchmen knows a character is a wizard that can't be killed but somehow their spellbook can be targeted from under their robe or inside a bag of holding the wizard is carrying, then it makes sense to send a squad with the purpose of destroying the spellbook, but I've just never been in that situation and I can't recall any instance in real life when someone has attacked the equivalent of the enemy's food supplies when the enemy is right in front of them, and in regards to stealing it at night, I'm very surprised someone who's able to sneak up on the PCs like that wont try to kill them in their sleep, or steal some magic items.
Our group has actually played in "steal the spellbook" quests, falling under the same logic as the "Get the Lich's phylactery" quests.
|
|
[When? Seriously, when have people deliberately gone after something their enemies don't use in battle, IN BATTLE? I mean, it's one thing to attack an army's supplies to weaken it, it's completely different to be engaged in a battle with said army, and stop targeting the soldiers in favour of trying to get to the supplies. An in regards to stealing it, why specifically steal a spellbook and not the warriors' weapons?... really do you think that wizards are some secret in the world of pathfinder?do you think that a rival wizard wont think... hmm i need to nuter these guys who are trying to kill me. that a wizard, or even a fighter with half a brain will say "i can take that wizard out of the equation by taking that book". if you really think people in the world dont know the achilles heel of wizards, you play in a very dumb world my friend.
Or even "Hey, that guy has an awesome spell, let me steal his spellbook so I can learn it".
Which was the basis of the previously mentioned "steal the spellbook" quest.
|
|
actually i trained at tracy's karate in vacaville. its kenpo jujitsu and one of the best fighting arts in the world. i don't train with shaolin (xaiolin) monks at all, noar am i a navy seal. im sorry that you were called on your bull crap, but talking out of your ass is way to common on the internet and it annoys me greatly.This is some of the funniest stuff I have read in ages :)
Especially when it comes to martial arts, the thing i love only less then my family.So the only thing in the world you love LESS than your family is Martial Arts?
you're a funny kid you should get ready for english class.
thanks
|
|
youre a funny kid you should get ready for english class.actually i trained at tracy's karate in vacaville. its kenpo jujitsu and one of the best fighting arts in the world. i don't train with shaolin (xaiolin) monks at all, noar am i a navy seal. im sorry that you were called on your bull crap, but talking out of your ass is way to common on the internet and it annoys me greatly.This is some of the funniest stuff I have read in ages :)
Especially when it comes to martial arts, the thing i love only less then my family.So the only thing in the world you love LESS than your family is Martial Arts?
You're :)
You're :)
Damn, Ninja'd.
...in regards to stealing it at night, I'm very surprised someone who's able to sneak up on the PCs like that wont try to kill them in their sleep, or steal some magic items.
This is why I have stated that the NPCs need both motivation and "opportunity" .
...I can't recall any instance in real life when someone has attacked the equivalent of the enemy's food supplies when the enemy is right in front of them
Almost every bombing raid is a real life example effectively weakening the enemy while keeping the soldiers on the ground, with the enemy right in front of them, safer.
I think I would agree with someone who said something like...
"If an enemy with lots of expendable henchmen knows a character is a wizard that can't be killed but somehow their spellbook can be targeted from under their robe or inside a bag of holding the wizard is carrying, then it makes sense to send a squad with the purpose of destroying the spellbook."
there are three seperate topics in the forum right now which show that it's possible to optimize beyond min-maxing
Those topics are1.) Allowing characters to take Charisma as a dump stat, but not penalizing them for it - after they use it as a dump stat, they ought to be able to say that their character is attractive and, thereby, gain positive modifiers to social encounters
2.) Allowing a Wizard to collect a god-like spell book without having to worry about keeping it safe
False accusation. Every wizard must collect such a spellbook to be that wizard. That isn't a choice, like the other two examples you're giving. That's a requirement of the class. Not going out of your way to screw a wizard player isn't being lenient or letting them get away with some sort of optimization. It's not being an evil DM. And not the good kind of evil. The mean, adversarial, not-in-it-for-the-fun kind of evil.
Your thread is otherwise interesting, but this bullet point is broken.
3.) Allowing a character to optimize towards big weapons and never have to worry about the down side of when those weapons shouldn't be usable (due to space requirements)
In all three cases, rather than min-maxing, the character maxes and then demands that the GM sweep the min under the rug where it will never be seen.
Am I simply old school? Does all the passion with which these things are argued influence the game designers? Does it indicate the future direction of the game?
While I would say that a GM timing a "random" encounter to purposely interrupt a cleric's prayer time is questionable, I also wouldn't ensure that his prayer time was "protected". If players know that nothing attacks between 07:00 and 08:00 then everyone can get a cup of tea and takes out the Beano, no need to keep watches.
i would disagree, if you have someone watching you through your window, and you see the person with the holy symbols all over his body meditating... its kinda obvious that they are doing what you think they are doing...
remember that an npc with a 23 INT is smarter then an living human on earth. so why would it be so hard to believe that a rogue/bard/wizard with knowledge EVERYTHING, wouldnt be able to devise a plan that would hemmorage the parties ability to fight? now i will say that doing this to a level 5 group is over board, but a near epic level party has no such defense.
I absolutely agree with you, hence a "random" encounter targeting a 60 in 1,440 point in time is questionable, unless actually randomly rolled. An NPC with full information, and a choice to attack whenever and wherever they like could quite easily choose the exact time the "regular" fighter is on the commode, the priest is talking to his god and the wizard is sleeping.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe I'm just in the most incredible games imaginable, but when someone says their PC is attractive we say "ok" and move the f*$% on with our lives and not obsess over making it a stat or trying to minmax it or getting way autistic over what kind of bonuses that should have.
Or maybe I just play with rational adults.
I'd comment on the rest but the kvetching about charisma is the dumbest g$$@&*n thing I have ever seen on these forums.