Whip Magus Thoughts and a few questions

[Iden]

Hey guys,

I'm currently playing a Whip based Magus in my home game.

I gotta say I'm enjoying the style of play I get out of him. My group right now is:
Paladin (Tank)
Two Weapon Bastard Sword Fighter
Polearm (Combat Reflexes) fighter
Basic Rogue
Whip Magus (me)
There used to be a sorceror who quit the group and, yes, we have suffered from Not having a dedicated divine magic user but I can't convince either of the fighters to trade out so here we are...

Anyway...

I've taken a role of battlefield controller and buffer from, what ends up being the second or often third line of the battlefield. I chose half orc and took the beastmaster racial ability to get whip and net, and spent the early levels using dazzling display to great effect. At this point I concentrate a lot on tripping and granting my polearm friend all sorts of AoOs. And with improved whip mastery I take them myself, when he stands sometimes. I do lack in damage from the scorpion whip, but I never have to concentrate (Great at low levels) and I can focus on several fronts from the middle of the pack when we get surrounded.

Things I've discovered/question.

People have suggested using metamagic rods with the Magus so I ask is that impossible since one hand has a weapon and the other hand must be kept free in order to benefit from spell combat?

The compy familiar from bestiary two is awesome so far with the +4 initiative bonus...

So is true strike/trip in the same round.

Would you say that you can take all your attacks in spell combat, cast as your spell, and then instantly benefit from the extra attack from haste during that very same full attack?

Per the core book, Touch spells don't discharge if you miss the touch attack, so does that carry over to the Magus as I think it does? Letting you keep hold the spell until one of your basic attacks hit or you cast another spell?

Not that it's come up but since you can deliver touch spells through the melee weapon, it I absolutely positively have to heal or buff an ally 15 feet away, can I hit them with my whip? Maybe using whip mastery to switch it back to non-lethal damage, just in case?

Phew... I know I had a few more but ATM those are what I could come up with. Thanks in advance!

[Benjamin Robson]

Iden wrote:

People have suggested using metamagic rods with the Magus so I ask is that impossible since one hand has a weapon and the other hand must be kept free in order to benefit from spell combat?

People have gotten some use out of the Hexcrafter archetype and using the Witch's Prehensile Hair hex (Ultimate Magic) to wield the rod, keep in mind it has a limited duration.

Alternatively there is the Alchemist's Vestigial Arm discovery (also from Ultimate Magic) that can wield the rod, this one requires you to take levels in Alchemist though.

Iden wrote:

Would you say that you can take all your attacks in spell combat, cast as your spell, and then instantly benefit from the extra attack from haste during that very same full attack?

I assume that the spell you are casting is Haste for the extra attack, with that in mind there are three issues I have with that particular order of actions.

First, all attacks must be made in order of highest to lowest BAB, you are adding one on the end at your highest, this goes against the rules.

SRD Combat wrote:

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

Second, you are casting a spell between attacks, this is not allowed by Spell Combat rules. However, the extra attack isn't possible until after the spell is cast so this is an unusual scenario.

SRD Magus wrote:

Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

Third, Haste grants you an extra attack on a Full Attack Action, with Spell Combat you are doing a Full Round Action that gives you all your attacks. Technically you aren't allowed to make the extra attack with Haste with Spell Combat, this may not be RAI.

SRD Haste wrote:

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

Iden wrote:

Per the core book, Touch spells don't discharge if you miss the touch attack, so does that carry over to the Magus as I think it does? Letting you keep hold the spell until one of your basic attacks hit or you cast another spell?

According to Spellstrike, you can replace a free melee touch attack granted by a spell with a free melee attack with his weapon as part of casting the spell. Technically you would still be holding the charge and can continue making touch attacks next round, however it appears that you are required to be casting the spell at the time for Spellstrike to be used. You can no longer Spellstrike with the held charge after the first attack misses.

You also have no precedence in the Spell Combat rules to make the melee touch attack with a held charge and gain the rest of your attacks. Discharging and attempting to discharge a spell does not count as casting a spell for the purposes of these abilities. There is also no FAQ entry for Ultimate combat regarding this scenario, I would love for the magus to be able to hold a charge and discharge a held charge on a melee attack.

SRD Magus wrote:

Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

SRD Magic wrote:

Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

Iden wrote:

Not that it's come up but since you can deliver touch spells through the melee weapon, it I absolutely positively have to heal or buff an ally 15 feet away, can I hit them with my whip? Maybe using whip mastery to switch it back to non-lethal damage, just in case?

There is no reason in the rules that a none-attack spell with a range of touch cannot be cast through a Spellstrike. Another thread has argued ad nauseum regarding whether or not Arcane Mark, a touch spell that is decidedly not an attack spell can be used with Spellstrike. It appears to be allowed by RAW, however the intent of the developers is currently unknown. The more curious question is how do you calculate the AC to hit, can a person lower his AC to make it easier for the healing attack?

Hopefully this helps. Love the Whip Magus build by the way, can't wait to try my own out.

[Scarymike]

I'd like to see your build. Just out of curiosity since I'm also playing a Whip Magus right now (only level 1 so far).

I went Kensai archtype in order to get the whip and free weapon focus feat. Also human, because I wanted weapon finesse so my AC is decent (Kensai also add int to AC).

Also planning to take the whip mastery feat chain. Mostly skipping the combat manuever feats, since I don't suffer AOO when they can't reach me anyway. don't get me wrong, I'd love those feats, but this build is a bit feat heavy to begin with.

[Iden]

Thanks for the note Benjamin.

If I were the DM I would absolutely house rule that you can drop your Dex bonus to ac and be flatfooted for the purpose of friendly touch ac spells.

My build is a little skewed based on our DM liking to hand out crazy powerful equipment and home brewed items and things willy-nilly but I can give you the highlights.

level 10 right now.

Feats:
weapon focus whip
combat expertise
whip mastery
improved trip
improved whip mastery
greater trip

Magus Arcanas:
Familiar - Compy from bestiary two
Maneuver Mastery - Grapple... Just kidding trip.
Accurate strike (Which is a beast, I just wish I could get it to work with tripping...)

I went with the improved trip and greater trip mostly because of the synergy with my combat reflexes ally to take all the AoOs I provide. Just got fighter training so maybe next level weapon spec although I can't see too many other fighter level requirement feats I want.

Tripping right now is +1(WF)+5(enhancement on weapon)+4(improved and greater trip)+10(level)+5(Str)= 25 normally, but since I can cast true strike before the trip that takes me up to a 45 if I really want to. It's cool tripping things with CMDs in the high 30s.

Mithril Breastplate because of the speed issues although I found I tend to be more stationary in the middle and back of the group so I'm questioning whether or not I want to go heavy armor when the opportunity comes. "Burst of Speed" is a great spell in general so can over come many speed issues for me when they come up. But like I said, I'm also not in melee range of most things a bunch, so we'll see.

Though whip mastery renders it mostly unnecessary, the scorpion whip was great to be able to hit things early on, and the slightly higher damage die never hurts.

Frigid Touch has been one of my goto damage spells because of the stagger bonus. Since I already have a +5 weapon (Willy-nilly DM) I use the arcane pool to add as many damage effects as I can and do alright with damage depending on the creature. High Intelligence and knowledge ranks keep me on track with most creatures resistances.

Brow Gasher is also a fascinating spell, cumulative -1 every round and once it passes -5 they are blind. Use early on for a big bad, and it can make the difference down the road, believe me. Just make sure they aren't immune to bleed... (Doh)

Otherwise for spells I usually prepare different spells in each slot and use Spell recall to bring back ones I need. I love me some grease and stone call for battlefield control.