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While thinking up a new character for Jade Reagent I settled on playing a monk with a heavy emphasis on creating spell-like effects - conjuring fire, casting spells, etc. Before I sat down at my books to look this concept over I thought the Qinggong monk was going to fill the role, but after looking it over I was unsatisfied. The only thing I was really interested in was scorching ray...
So I turned elsewhere. I looked over the Kensai Magus archetype as a possible outlet, but choosing Unarmed Strike as the Kensai's weapon just seems incredibly ineffective. The damage would be abysmal, and all the cool style feats and elemental fist would be out of reach until post-level 10 - no good. This method gets the spells, but doesn't feel much like a monk (or not a decent, playable one at any rate).
At this point I'm considering going with a Qinggong monk/Master of Many Styles and grabbing all the genie styles, which would certainly have a lot of cool, elemental-conjuring effects, but then I'm not REALLY casting spells either.
Am I to despair and assume that the only way to pull off such a character would be a new Magus archetype? That would probably be the best way to make this character, but as we don't have that archetype, I ask you, can this character be made? Are there outlets I haven't considered? CAN the Kensai be made into a decent monk/caster?
Answer: Yes.
With optimal results? No. Really. No.
Effectively? Doubtful, but... (Unsure of difficulty of Jade AP.)
So here's a stab, taking it a different direction with the assumption you're shooting for an archetype not a stat block:
First, how monkish do you want your Monk?
A few sorcerer bloodlines can give you the feel of 'melee capable' (they're suboptimal, but flavorful) while the (faux-monk) magic does the work for you. (Same mechanics, different flavor. Add spells like Jump, Expeditious Retreat, Spider Climb, et al, to do cool Monk things.)
Dragon Disciple can have a very Asian flavor, you could have Monk levels with Sorceror, then go PrC to augment both. (Again, suboptimal, but I'd have fun playing it depending on difficulty/DM style.)
With Oracle, Cleric, Inquisitor, maybe even Alchemist (vivisectionist) , you could build something that 'looks' like a 'monk throwing magic' even without any monk levels or unarmed strikes (maybe with touch spell attacks taking their place).
Quarterstaves with buffs (i.e. Divine Favor) can be pretty monkish and reasonably effective. You could free up a hand at will to blast.
Bane can make up for much.
And lastly, Barbarian. Yep, the antithesis of both mages & monks.
Elemental Barbarian (perhaps brawler) with Eldritch Heritage puts a lot of energy effects into play, looking sweet. A pair of Khukris and he looks like a monk.
Speaking of Barbarian, a Rage Prophet could probably work out a combo that works for this too.
Just some loose thoughts, doubt they satisfy, but maybe they stir your thoughts enough.
Oh, and the answer's really 'no'. (Unless you find APs easy and need a challenge.)
JMK
While thinking up a new character for Jade Reagent I settled on playing a monk with a heavy emphasis on creating spell-like effects - conjuring fire, casting spells, etc. Before I sat down at my books to look this concept over I thought the Qinggong monk was going to fill the role, but after looking it over I was unsatisfied. The only thing I was really interested in was scorching ray...
So I turned elsewhere. I looked over the Kensai Magus archetype as a possible outlet, but choosing Unarmed Strike as the Kensai's weapon just seems incredibly ineffective. The damage would be abysmal, and all the cool style feats and elemental fist would be out of reach until post-level 10 - no good. This method gets the spells, but doesn't feel much like a monk (or not a decent, playable one at any rate).
At this point I'm considering going with a Qinggong monk/Master of Many Styles and grabbing all the genie styles, which would certainly have a lot of cool, elemental-conjuring effects, but then I'm not REALLY casting spells either.
Am I to despair and assume that the only way to pull off such a character would be a new Magus archetype? That would probably be the best way to make this character, but as we don't have that archetype, I ask you, can this character be made? Are there outlets I haven't considered? CAN the Kensai be made into a decent monk/caster?
I once build an 8th level monk (standard) with 2 levels of sorcerer (empyreal bloodline). Everything runs off wisdom this way, so no need to invest into charisma.
By picking the right spells such as shield he was incredibly effective.
Dragon Disciple. Reflavor it a bit, say natural attacks are martial artist moves, natural armor is like your wisdom bonus add levels of ranger, or fighter for lack of feats as well as MAD if you are looking to be more of a melee dude than a caster. Retain lawful alignment, take dragon style feats for fun.
Or just wait for the prestige class. It's bound to happen sooner or later.
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But be of good cheer - there is a sorcerer bloodline or archetype (I forget) that allows you to use your WIS instead of Cha as the base stat. I am sure one of the other people on the boards can clue you in.
The archetype is the wildblooded empyreal (celestial variant) sorcerer from Ultimate Magic.
I've been playing with the idea of a sohei 1/empyreal sorcerer 6/eldritch knight 10 (which should get you through most APs), but I don't know if it could really be made to work.
I haven't playtested this build, but I had an idea for a Monk (Master of Many Styles) 6, Sorcerer (Fire Elemental Bloodline) 6, Fighter 1, Eldritch Knight 7. I would take the Dragon Style chain (Dragon Ferocity + Elemental Fist seems awesome), Efreeti Style, Elemental Fist, Sorcerous Strike, Monastic Legacy, etc. It would still be incredibly MAD and wouldn't really start coming together until about 10th level, but there's always a price for doing weird multiclass concepts. You can also use the Sacred Mountain archetype with the Master of Many Styles to be a bit less squishy from the caster levels.
I think this gives you just enough levels to give it that Monk flavor, and keeps it going with Monastic Legacy. Sorcerer would give you access to a lot of useful spells, as well as the fire spells. Fighter is just there for the free feat and martial weapon proficiency needed for Eldritch Knight, which keeps up your bab and spellcasting. It would give you a medium bab, up to 8th level spells, and 2d6 unarmed strike damage (plus bonuses from styles, feats, and Monk's robes).
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More monk, like a bender from Avatar. I'm throwing together a Master of Many Styles/Four Winds/Qinggong monk that's looking promising (GM allowed mixing between MMoMS & Four Winds due to AP's never reaching 20th level). There's a lot of elemental attacks being thrown around, enough to make it look like a caster hybrid. I'm still leaning towards a new Magus archetype though. Time allowing, I'll see if I can toss something together using the Kensai as inspiration and post it here.
Rite Publishing has an archetype in the PDF “Monk Archetypes” called "Kenza" which gives up Flurry of Blows to cast spells like an Inquisitor which may be what your looking for.
I can't believe this thread has gotten this far without someone suggesting levels of Druid. Have you all SEEN what some of the new feats can do for multiclass Druids ?
More monk, like a bender from Avatar. I'm throwing together a Master of Many Styles/Four Winds/Qinggong monk that's looking promising (GM allowed mixing between MMoMS & Four Winds due to AP's never reaching 20th level).
I'm jealous. I love both of these archetypes, and would love to use both of them in a single build, but most of my play is in less flexible contexts, where these sorts of exceptions are unlikely to be made.
I can't believe this thread has gotten this far without someone suggesting levels of Druid. Have you all SEEN what some of the new feats can do for multiclass Druids ?
Examples please. :)
A monk/druid combo works pretty well for a Bender style character. A level or two of monk, and you have a kick-ass master of the elements martial artist
monk/cleric or monk/druid works far far better than sorc or wiz.
Take Plant domain with either, and your unarmed strike keeps pace no matter how much you mix the caster in. If cleric, go Gozreh and add in Air for a lightning blast, or for extra-benderness take Weather for a wind buffet effect.
Basically, the mix you take just depends on how much flux you're willing to accept in your abilities. More caster = more peaks and valleys (buffed vs. non-buffed), while more monk = steady power.
Can't you just present or ask for an archetype? (With your DM, not Paizo)
Take the Monk: BAB/Flurry/Unarmed Damage/HD/Skills/Weapon Prof./etc., the basics of being a martial artist. Now subtract every single other ability, even Stunning Fist & Evasion. Yes, tough, but then...
Add the Magus spell progression (Wis based) and Spellstrike.
Done.
Though you might bargain for:
The AC bonus progression and Wis AC boost, just to survive unarmored in combat.
There are also a few Magus tricks that have a martial feel, see if your DM will let you have those later on.
Maybe the ki strike ability (maybe using spell slots to activate, such as 1 rd/level of spell sacrificed)
Maybe he'll let you take the Elemental version of Stunning Fist (as it's very in character and sort of lame) (A 'sure, why not' item)
Then you'll have lots of colorful offensive options and enough defense (w/ Mage Armor) to survive as a skirmisher.
Thoughts?
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Can't you just present or ask for an archetype? (With your DM, not Paizo)
Take the Monk: BAB/Flurry/Unarmed Damage/HD/Skills/Weapon Prof./etc., the basics of being a martial artist. Now subtract every single other ability, even Stunning Fist & Evasion. Yes, tough, but then...
Add the Magus spell progression (Wis based) and Spellstrike.
Done.
Though you might bargain for:
The AC bonus progression and Wis AC boost, just to survive unarmored in combat.
There are also a few Magus tricks that have a martial feel, see if your DM will let you have those later on.
Maybe the ki strike ability (maybe using spell slots to activate, such as 1 rd/level of spell sacrificed)
Maybe he'll let you take the Elemental version of Stunning Fist (as it's very in character and sort of lame) (A 'sure, why not' item)Then you'll have lots of colorful offensive options and enough defense (w/ Mage Armor) to survive as a skirmisher.
Thoughts?
Wow, certainly more than I was going to ask for! Haha. Your idea looks pretty great though! I was just going to make some simple changes to the Kensai, as it's practically a monk already, just without the unarmed fighting. Rather than get Weapon Focus at level 1, they can choose either Elemental Fist or Stunning Fist. At level 4 you gain a monk's unarmed damage, albeit at Level-3 (I'm just basing this off the Kensai's level 7 ability, which lets you count your magus level -3 as your fighter level for feats). Level 7 grants you the Kensai's level 4 ability, Perfect Strike, which allows you to spend one point from your arcane pool to deal max damage on a weapon attack.
Perfect Strike is a little "meh," however. I mean, it's got a monk feel to it, but still... It could be replaced with something better. I'm also concerned about the lack of Flurry of Blows, and if that will cripple an unarmed character or not.
Going with a modified magus means you can use Spell Combat for extra attacks. Being unarmed, you could have fun with using actual touch spells without the need for Spellstrike.
Spell Combat + Arcane Mark = ghetto flurry.
RE: the stripped down Monk getting Magus spells:
If your DM balks...
As it's hard to measure the worth of all those Monk tricks vs. a SPELL LIST, OMG, then present it more from the Magus to Monk POV.
As Magus, the core payments are that you're trading armor for Wis/AC bonus (loss, IMO, though touch AC is nice) and martial/simple weapons for unarmed damage, monk weapons, & flurry (debatable either way, maybe disallow Temple Sword).
Other than Spellstrike, you're losing all those other Magus abilities.
At that point I think you've traded more than you've gained, so should get a few Magus perks (or Monk perks) back.
Or Elemental Fist, which really would have little game effect (only Monk of the Four Winds gets the damage boost to it). It's really only good when you face a vulnerability or regeneration.
Or maybe your DM will allow you to take that extra Magus ability feat instead, as some of them fit the feel of this PC.
Seems fair to me.
Effective, yes, but I don't think any more so than a Magus, and a bit more vulnerable.
Tell us if it flies with DM and how well it plays out,
JMK
I once build an 8th level monk (standard) with 2 levels of sorcerer (empyreal bloodline). Everything runs off wisdom this way, so no need to invest into charisma.
By picking the right spells such as shield he was incredibly effective.
I've been toying around with this too -- I really want to make an NPC a la Burning Cloud Devil from the most recent Pathfinder Tales and this seems like a good mechanical way to represent that. BCD is more sorcerer than monk, except for access to higher level monk abilities (Quivering Palm). Maybe some sort of PrC that emulates Eldritch Knight but is more Monk based?
Monk 2 / Empyreal Sorcerer X would be a flavorful arcane PC in a party (take the Magical Knack trait to keep CL maxed).
Monk X / Empyreal Sorcerer 2-4 would be a good striker that can self-buff. Less money needed for magic items for defense, so invest in wands & such?
3.5's Complete Divine had a monk/cleric prestige class called Sacred Fist.
I'm going with a Monk / Magus (Kensai), with Magical Knack trait my two levels of monk at least won't hit my caster level.
It's a point buy game stats-wise so having 16 Dex, 16 Int, 14 Wis is more cost effective than going for 18 Dex, 18 Wis.
I'm sure it won't be completely optimal, but it should be fun!