Mok
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You have the problem of MAD (Multi-Attribute Dependency) and SAD (Single Attribute Dependency) classes. SAD can dump a bunch of stats, boost up their one stat that drives the whole class and be set. Meanwhile, the MAD character has to make a lot of painful trade-offs, either spreading things out in a humdrum manner, or being very slanted and having complicated liabilities.
So how about just rating the classes on the MAD/SAD scale and then tagging a certain point buy to that rating? For multiclassing, the point buy that you select also restricts the classes that you can pick going forward, so you can dip one level into a highly MAD character, and then jump into a high SAD character for the rest of your career.
As an example, a Wizard, who is highly SAD (Int), needs to use a 15 or 20 point buy (depending on how draconian the GM wants to be). On the other end, a Monk, who's highly MAD (Str, Dex, Con, Wis) gets a 35 point buy. Basically, whatever the base is (15 or 20) and then add on +5 points per extra attribute needed.
| Kolokotroni |
You have the problem of MAD (Multi-Attribute Dependency) and SAD (Single Attribute Dependency) classes. SAD can dump a bunch of stats, boost up their one stat that drives the whole class and be set. Meanwhile, the MAD character has to make a lot of painful trade-offs, either spreading things out in a humdrum manner, or being very slanted and having complicated liabilities.
So how about just rating the classes on the MAD/SAD scale and then tagging a certain point buy to that rating? For multiclassing, the point buy that you select also restricts the classes that you can pick going forward, so you can dip one level into a highly MAD character, and then jump into a high SAD character for the rest of your career.
As an example, a Wizard, who is highly SAD (Int), needs to use a 15 or 20 point buy (depending on how draconian the GM wants to be). On the other end, a Monk, who's highly MAD (Str, Dex, Con, Wis) gets a 35 point buy. Basically, whatever the base is (15 or 20) and then add on +5 points per extra attribute needed.
Because class alone does not determine how Mad or Sad you are.
For instance, a wizard intending to go arcane trickster or eldritch knight would be different then an evoker. An archer fighter is more mad then a heavy armor 2handed fighter. Some classes are always Mad, like the monk, but others it depends on what you are going to do with them. And with an ever expanding supply of options, and the fact that not all characters are planned out completely at first level, there is no way to make this equitable.
| Rory |
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As an example, a Wizard, who is highly SAD (Int), needs to use a 15 or 20 point buy (depending on how draconian the GM wants to be). On the other end, a Monk, who's highly MAD (Str, Dex, Con, Wis) gets a 35 point buy. Basically, whatever the base is (15 or 20) and then add on +5 points per extra attribute needed.
A good method that someone on these forums came up with (I don't know who to credit, but thank you, I pillaged the method), is to abolish the +1 stat every 4 levels and give +1 stat point per level.
Example: 20 pt buy to start, +1 stat point per level (max of +4 stat points for +1 stat). People can save up stat points to buy up the stats as they desire when they level. At level 4, a character will have 24 stat points to be based on (which is the 20 pts base, and +4 stat points = +1 high stat or more if lower stats are bumped).
This system is virtually identical to a 20 pt buy and +1 every 4th level for SAD characters, but the flexibility immensely helps the MAD character. A SAD character is getting +1 to their prime stat for 4 stat points, while a MAD character is getting +1 to their prime stats for 2 or 3 stat points. Over time, the MAD character becomes better rounded in stats, racking up more total stat bonuses, while the SAD character is insanely high on their one stat just like they always have been.
Thalin
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Mages need con as much as monks, and Dex for monks is overrated (AC from Wis is better, as you never lose it), Monks are really Str/Wis, with the standard note all characters should have a 12 or 14 con.
People overestimate the # of stats for monks. Really rogues, with their Str / DEX / Int / Con needs are far more MAD.
And combat Druids, who already kick ass, will be even better.
| Sean FitzSimon |
Actually, what I tend to see isn't that the character struggles from the beginning if she's MAD, but that she struggles to cover all of her required stats in the mid-high levels. A SAD caster can funnel her gold into a single stat, gaining a +6 item and a +5 tome surprisingly early in the campaign. But on the flip side of that, the biggest benefit of a high casting stat is the increased spell DC, and those saves tend to be made more often than failed in the higher levels.
I've never seen casters at some unfair advantage of being able to focus solely on one stat. It's never been, "jeez, look how godly his intelligence score is!" But rather, "jeez, look how high he has to get his intelligence score just to remain competitive."
This of course assumes that you're aiming to play an offensive caster, which benefits the most from a high casting score.
| Charender |
Mok wrote:As an example, a Wizard, who is highly SAD (Int), needs to use a 15 or 20 point buy (depending on how draconian the GM wants to be). On the other end, a Monk, who's highly MAD (Str, Dex, Con, Wis) gets a 35 point buy. Basically, whatever the base is (15 or 20) and then add on +5 points per extra attribute needed.A good method that someone on these forums came up with (I don't know who to credit, but thank you, I pillaged the method), is to abolish the +1 stat every 4 levels and give +1 stat point per level.
Example: 20 pt buy to start, +1 stat point per level (max of +4 stat points for +1 stat). People can save up stat points to buy up the stats as they desire when they level. At level 4, a character will have 24 stat points to be based on (which is the 20 pts base, and +4 stat points = +1 high stat or more if lower stats are bumped).
This system is virtually identical to a 20 pt buy and +1 every 4th level for SAD characters, but the flexibility immensely helps the MAD character. A SAD character is getting +1 to their prime stat for 4 stat points, while a MAD character is getting +1 to their prime stats for 2 or 3 stat points. Over time, the MAD character becomes better rounded in stats, racking up more total stat bonuses, while the SAD character is insanely high on their one stat just like they always have been.
+1 to this. This is a really good way to help out MAD characters.
| EWHM |
Yes, I too like the +1 stat point per level option. It doesn't just help out MAD characters, it helps out non-optimized characters vs optimized characters. I've seen people also use this for inherent bonus (generally wishes or tomes) also, where each +1 is 4 stat buy points. This of course relies on the buy table pricing anything over 18 as 4 incremental buy points per point.
Zexcir
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One way to alleviate this is to allow certain classes to gain extra stat points as they level up.
Example for a monk, every 5 levels they get an extra point in dex and wis.. or something similar. That way if they multiclass, it makes it so they don't just "dip" into a MAD class for the extra points. They must stay on that path for a while.
| Charender |
Yes, I too like the +1 stat point per level option. It doesn't just help out MAD characters, it helps out non-optimized characters vs optimized characters. I've seen people also use this for inherent bonus (generally wishes or tomes) also, where each +1 is 4 stat buy points. This of course relies on the buy table pricing anything over 18 as 4 incremental buy points per point.
I have also seen it applied to enhancment bonuses(for example a belt of strength +2 actually gives you +8 strength points).
Also, it can be applied to stat drains(each -1 to a stat is -2 stat points). This actually makes the guy with epic stat scores much more resistant to ability drains and damage.