RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Alright, something came up that surprised me at my last PFS session, and I just wanted to come here for confirmation:
The Fame-based spending limits... does the gp limit given only apply to the magical "part" of a weapon or armor? For instance, adding a +2 enhancement to a weapon costs 8,000gp, resulting in an item worth 8,3XXgp. So if your fame allows magic items worth up to 8,000gp, can you buy a +2 weapon?
I had originally been under the impression that the Fame-based spending limits applied to the total cost of the item, and thus you would need the next increment past 8,000 in order to cover the final cost of the weapon (though you could still, for instance, get the exactly-8,000-costing Ring of Protection +2). However, the table was unanimous that this was incorrect and the limit only applied to the "magical part".
I don't have the Guide in front of me at the moment, so I guess what I'm asking for is a quote/reference to back up the magic-part-only ruling.
Thanks!
As far as I know, your interpretation is right; 8k is not enough for a magic weapon. Sad, but true.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Your table was unanimous, but wrong. In the future, I would advise against taking counsel from furniture.
Haha, wow, did that post ever make my day. Kudos on a well-executed laugh line, Chris. :)
So I was right in the first place? (I was actually kind of liking the idea of being wrong on this one...) Even so, can I still get a reference if it's not too much trouble?
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I had originally been under the impression that the Fame-based spending limits applied to the total cost of the item, and thus you would need the next increment past 8,000 in order to cover the final cost of the weapon (though you could still, for instance, get the exactly-8,000-costing Ring of Protection +2). However, the table was unanimous that this was incorrect and the limit only applied to the "magical part".
As Chris already mentioned, this is correct. Your table was not. Shocking how players constantly get rules wrong in their favor...
22 Fame does not allow you to buy +2 weapons*, 27 Fame does.
*Unless it's on a Chronicle.
Also, this.
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From the Guide:
Benefits of Fame
A character’s Fame represents her renown and status
within her faction. For every 10 points of Fame, a
character gains a cumulative +1 bonus on Diplomacy
checks made against members of her faction. A
character’s Fame might also afford her certain titles and
incidental privileges and also allows her to purchase
from her faction between scenarios. A character’s Fame
score determines the maximum gp value of any items
she can purchase from her faction, as detailed in Table
5–2 below. The character must still actually spend the
gold to receive the desired item.
Table 5–3: Fame and It em Purchases
F ame Score Maximum Item Cost
4 or less 500 gp
9 1,500 gp
13 3,000 gp
18 5,250 gp
22 8,000 gp
27 11,750 gp
31 16,500 gp
36 23,000 gp
40 31,000 gp
45 41,000 gp
49 54,000 gp
54 70,000 gp
58 92,500 gp
63 120,000 gp
67 or more 157,500 gp
Note that it says maximum gp value of any items, NOT the maximum gp value of any enchantments on any item.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I had originally been under the impression that the Fame-based spending limits applied to the total cost of the item, and thus you would need the next increment past 8,000 in order to cover the final cost of the weapon (though you could still, for instance, get the exactly-8,000-costing Ring of Protection +2). However, the table was unanimous that this was incorrect and the limit only applied to the "magical part".As Chris already mentioned, this is correct. Your table was not. Shocking how players constantly get rules wrong in their favor...
22 Fame does not allow you to buy +2 weapons*, 27 Fame does.
*Unless it's on a Chronicle.
Also, this.
So then the question becomes:
At 22 fame:
Can I buy a Masterwork Longspear for 305gp?
Once I have bought it and listed it on my Chronicle, can I then pay to have it upgraded to +2 for the 8000gp difference in cost?
If the answer is no, then:
If I previously had a +1 Longspear, can I have that upgraded to +2 by paying the 6000gp difference?
Are these functionally the same, or are they somehow intrinsically different.
I'm not searching for a loophole. Really. I've got none of my characters wanting a +2 weapon. I'm just exploring what the rule actually means.
The answer is no because you have to have enough Fame to cover the total cost of the item as if you were buying it brand new and not just upgrading.
The answer is no because you have to have enough Fame to cover the total cost of the item as if you were buying it brand new and not just upgrading.
I'm not certain that you are correct here. But I'm not certain that you are wrong.
If you already own an item, are you buying a new item when you upgrade it, or are you buying the upgrade?
The PSOPG does not talk about availability of upgrades via fame. It only talks about purchases.
Any text you can quote either way? I'm asking to find the answer. I don't have a firm opinion either way.
Developer
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The answer is no because you have to have enough Fame to cover the total cost of the item as if you were buying it brand new and not just upgrading.I'm not certain that you are correct here. But I'm not certain that you are wrong.
If you already own an item, are you buying a new item when you upgrade it, or are you buying the upgrade?
The PSOPG does not talk about availability of upgrades via fame. It only talks about purchases.
Any text you can quote either way? I'm asking to find the answer. I don't have a firm opinion either way.
It's been stated elsewhere (my bleary eyes fail at search-fu) that fame allowances are always for the total cost, regardless of what you are spending at the moment. A +2 weapon is treated as 83xx no matter how you got there.
More consistent that way, anyway.
The answer is no because you have to have enough Fame to cover the total cost of the item as if you were buying it brand new and not just upgrading.I'm not certain that you are correct here. But I'm not certain that you are wrong.
If you already own an item, are you buying a new item when you upgrade it, or are you buying the upgrade?
The PSOPG does not talk about availability of upgrades via fame. It only talks about purchases.
Any text you can quote either way? I'm asking to find the answer. I don't have a firm opinion either way.
It's been stated elsewhere (my bleary eyes fail at search-fu) that fame allowances are always for the total cost, regardless of what you are spending at the moment. A +2 weapon is treated as 83xx no matter how you got there.
More consistent that way, anyway.
I think this might be FAQ worthy, as it's a likely area needing official clarification.
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So then the question becomes:
At 22 fame:
Can I buy a Masterwork Longspear for 305gp?
Once I have bought it and listed it on my Chronicle, can I then pay to have it upgraded to +2 for the 8000gp difference in cost?
If the answer is no, then:
If I previously had a +1 Longspear, can I have that upgraded to +2 by paying the 6000gp difference?
Are these functionally the same, or are they somehow intrinsically different.
I'm not searching for a loophole. Really. I've got none of my characters wanting a +2 weapon. I'm just exploring what the rule actually means.
Answer:
At 22 Fame, you can buy a masterwork longspear or a +1 longspear. You canNOT buy a +2 longspear at 22 Fame, since the total price for the +2 longspear would be 8,305 gp, not 8,000 gp.
Total price is the money needed to buy the item from scratch, whether you are buying a totally new item, or upgrading an existing one.
Masterwork longspear: 305 gp
Make it a +1 enhancement: +2,000 gp, total 2,305 gp
Make it a +2 enhancement: +6,000 gp, total 8,305 gp
Masterwork longspear: 305 gp
Make it a +2 enhancement: +8,000 gp, total 8,305 gp
Buy a +2 longspear: 8,305 gp
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From the Guide:
Benefits of Fame
A character’s Fame represents her renown and status
within her faction. For every 10 points of Fame, a
character gains a cumulative +1 bonus on Diplomacy
checks made against members of her faction. A
character’s Fame might also afford her certain titles and
incidental privileges and also allows her to purchase
from her faction between scenarios. A character’s Fame
score determines the maximum gp value of any items
she can purchase from her faction, as detailed in Table
5–2 below. The character must still actually spend the
gold to receive the desired item.
Sorry, I guess I should have bolded the relevant line the first time I quoted the Guide.
Value is equivalent to the total cost, not the piecemeal cost.
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The answer is no because you have to have enough Fame to cover the total cost of the item as if you were buying it brand new and not just upgrading.I'm not certain that you are correct here. But I'm not certain that you are wrong.
If you already own an item, are you buying a new item when you upgrade it, or are you buying the upgrade?
The PSOPG does not talk about availability of upgrades via fame. It only talks about purchases.
Any text you can quote either way? I'm asking to find the answer. I don't have a firm opinion either way.
Sorry Fozzy, you are wrong on this one.
Sorry Fozzy, you are wrong on this one.The answer is no because you have to have enough Fame to cover the total cost of the item as if you were buying it brand new and not just upgrading.I'm not certain that you are correct here. But I'm not certain that you are wrong.
If you already own an item, are you buying a new item when you upgrade it, or are you buying the upgrade?
The PSOPG does not talk about availability of upgrades via fame. It only talks about purchases.
Any text you can quote either way? I'm asking to find the answer. I don't have a firm opinion either way.
Ruh?
I'm wrong for not being decided on the issue?
Clarify?
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Sorry Fozzy, you are wrong on this one.The answer is no because you have to have enough Fame to cover the total cost of the item as if you were buying it brand new and not just upgrading.I'm not certain that you are correct here. But I'm not certain that you are wrong.
If you already own an item, are you buying a new item when you upgrade it, or are you buying the upgrade?
The PSOPG does not talk about availability of upgrades via fame. It only talks about purchases.
Any text you can quote either way? I'm asking to find the answer. I don't have a firm opinion either way.
Ruh?
I'm wrong for not being decided on the issue?
Clarify?
Total cost of the item is what's considered, not just the cost of the upgrade.
Total cost of the item is what's considered, not just the cost of the upgrade.Sorry Fozzy, you are wrong on this one.The answer is no because you have to have enough Fame to cover the total cost of the item as if you were buying it brand new and not just upgrading.I'm not certain that you are correct here. But I'm not certain that you are wrong.
If you already own an item, are you buying a new item when you upgrade it, or are you buying the upgrade?
The PSOPG does not talk about availability of upgrades via fame. It only talks about purchases.
Any text you can quote either way? I'm asking to find the answer. I don't have a firm opinion either way.
Ruh?
I'm wrong for not being decided on the issue?
Clarify?
Relevant rules text: ?
I'd like to think that you might be right here, but I'm hoping that you supply more than just empty opinion.
Relevant rules text: ?A character’s Fame score determines the maximum gp value of any items she can purchase from her faction, as detailed in Table 5–2 below.
And text that defines upgrading an item as purchasing an item?
(And I will accept as an answer: "The text is silent on this issue, but it is my assumption that when upgrading an item, you deal with it as though you were buying the fully upgraded item itself.")
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A character’s Fame score determines the maximum gp value of any items she can purchase from her faction, as detailed in Table 5–2 below.And text that defines upgrading an item as purchasing an item?
(And I will accept as an answer: "The text is silent on this issue, but it is my assumption that when upgrading an item, you deal with it as though you were buying the fully upgraded item itself.")
If you need to have upgrade defined differently than purchase then we have a bigger problem here. When you exchange money for something, weather that is an incremental something or a new something, you have completed a purchase, yeah?
If you need to have upgrade defined differently than purchase then we have a bigger problem here. When you exchange money for something, weather that is an incremental something or a new something, you have completed a purchase, yeah?A character’s Fame score determines the maximum gp value of any items she can purchase from her faction, as detailed in Table 5–2 below.And text that defines upgrading an item as purchasing an item?
(And I will accept as an answer: "The text is silent on this issue, but it is my assumption that when upgrading an item, you deal with it as though you were buying the fully upgraded item itself.")
If I own a Pickup truck. And I go out and buy better tires for it. I have not purchased a "Truck with Better Tires" I have purchased "Tires"
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And text that defines upgrading an item as purchasing an item?
Personally, I think this sounds more like lawyer-speak than a real discussion of rules. It has the feel of trying to find a fault with the language that doesn't really exist.
But I will accept that you may not be the only one confused about this subject.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Jiggy, was this at the game at FFG? If so, it sounds like I need to have a conversation with everybody so they're on the same page.
Yep. Bbauzgh had just hit 22 Fame (or whatever the threshold for 8k gold is) and excitedly upgraded his weapon to a +2. Everyone but me (well, me and the guy who thought you couldn't buy a +2 weapon that wasn't on a chronicle) was on the same page, so I figured it was likely they were right.
@Fozzyhammer and everyone replying to him:
STOP STOP STOP YOU'RE TALKING PAST EACH OTHER!!!
Guys, Fozzyhammer is not asking if an upgrade is a purchase! He is asking whether the Fame cap limits how much you can spend at once, or the final net value of the item you end up with afterwards!
Fozzyhammer, your question was already answered, though in the flurry of posts you seem to have missed it among the misguided answers. Here's the key:
You can pay the difference to upgrade your +1 weapon to a +2 weapon - you spend the 6,000gp and upgrade the existing weapon, rather than selling your old one and buying a new one.
BUT THAT FACT IS IRRELEVANT TO THE FAME CAP.
The Fame cap is NOT how much you can spend at once. The Fame cap is how valuable your magic items can BE. If your Fame cap isn't high enough for a +2 weapon's value, then it doesn't matter whether you're upgrading or buying new - either way is forbidden until your Fame cap accommodates the FINAL VALUE OF THE ITEM.
The relevant Guide text was already quoted a couple of times, but it looks like you missed it amid the aforementioned post swarm, so here it is again:
A character’s Fame score determines the maximum gp value of any items she can purchase from her faction, as detailed in Table 5–2 below.
Note that it does NOT say "the maximum gp you can spend on a purchase" - that would imply a difference between buying new and upgrading (which you've got to admit would be kind of silly). It says "maximum gp value".
So in your truck tires example, no, you're not selling your truck and buying a "truck with new tires". You're taking your truck in to put new tires on it, and then the government (or mafia, if you prefer) steps in and says "Sorry, you're not allowed to have that nice of a truck [what it would be worth with the new tires on it]. Come back when you're more important." Even though the purchase you were going to make was only the upgrade [the tires], the limit is on the final value of what you would end up with [the truck with the tires on it].Make sense?
Jiggy, was this at the game at FFG? If so, it sounds like I need to have a conversation with everybody so they're on the same page.Yep. Bbauzgh had just hit 22 Fame (or whatever the threshold for 8k gold is) and excitedly upgraded his weapon to a +2. Everyone but me (well, me and the guy who thought you couldn't buy a +2 weapon that wasn't on a chronicle) was on the same page, so I figured it was likely they were right.
@Fozzyhammer and everyone replying to him:
STOP STOP STOP YOU'RE TALKING PAST EACH OTHER!!!Guys, Fozzyhammer is not asking if an upgrade is a purchase! He is asking whether the Fame cap limits how much you can spend at once, or the final net value of the item you end up with afterwards!
Fozzyhammer, your question was already answered, though in the flurry of posts you seem to have missed it among the misguided answers. Here's the key:
You can pay the difference to upgrade your +1 weapon to a +2 weapon - you spend the 6,000gp and upgrade the existing weapon, rather than selling your old one and buying a new one.
BUT THAT FACT IS IRRELEVANT TO THE FAME CAP.
The Fame cap is NOT how much you can spend at once. The Fame cap is how valuable your magic items can BE. If your Fame cap isn't high enough for a +2 weapon's value, then it doesn't matter whether you're upgrading or buying new - either way is forbidden until your Fame cap accommodates the FINAL VALUE OF THE ITEM.
The relevant Guide text was already quoted a couple of times, but it looks like you missed it amid the aforementioned post swarm, so here it is again:
A character’s Fame score determines the maximum gp value of any items she can purchase from her faction, as detailed in Table 5–2 below.Note that it does NOT say "the maximum gp you can spend on a purchase" - that would imply a difference between buying new and upgrading (which you've got to admit would be kind of silly). It says "maximum gp value".
So in your truck tires example, no,...
Jiggy,
I love your ability to take my example and run with it!
Sure. I'll buy your argument. (But I guess not my truck tires <g>)
Thank you for stepping in. You done good.
I've always been a big fan of analogies. :D
You're welcome.
You mean those books with lots of short stories by different authors?
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Jiggy, was this at the game at FFG? If so, it sounds like I need to have a conversation with everybody so they're on the same page.Yep. Bbauzgh had just hit 22 Fame (or whatever the threshold for 8k gold is) and excitedly upgraded his weapon to a +2. Everyone but me (well, me and the guy who thought you couldn't buy a +2 weapon that wasn't on a chronicle) was on the same page, so I figured it was likely they were right.
You were correct. I'll make sure that this information is distributed. Looks like you've just come up with a topic for next week's newsletter!
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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You were correct. I'll make sure that this information is distributed. Looks like you've just come up with a topic for next week's newsletter!
HOORAY I'M A FAMOUS AUTHOR WELL SORT OF ANYWAY
You mean those books with lots of short stories by different authors?
Nope, that's an anthology.
You were correct. I'll make sure that this information is distributed. Looks like you've just come up with a topic for next week's newsletter!HOORAY I'M A FAMOUS AUTHOR WELL SORT OF ANYWAY
You mean those books with lots of short stories by different authors?Nope, that's an anthology.
Naw, dat's what dey sing at da baseball game.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Hey if you want to write the article, it'll save me time.You were correct. I'll make sure that this information is distributed. Looks like you've just come up with a topic for next week's newsletter!HOORAY I'M A FAMOUS AUTHOR WELL SORT OF ANYWAY
Wait, you were going to do a whole article about the Fame cap?
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Here is the upgrade info from the society guide:
"For ease of play in Pathfinder Society, a masterwork
item can always be upgraded to a +1 item without paying
for the masterwork cost again. Instead, you pay the
difference between the cost of the +1 item and that of the
masterwork item. This rule also applies to upgrading
from a +1 item to a +2 item and so on—you never have to
repay the original cost or sell your current item for half
to upgrade to the next step."
Going from a +1 to a +2 weapon is a 6,000 gold upgrade. If the campaign admins wants the players to use the full value for access purposes, they need to make that clear in the document.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If the campaign admins wants the players to use the full value for access purposes, they need to make that clear in the document.
Um, they did.
A character’s Fame score determines the maximum gp value of any items she can purchase from her faction, as detailed in Table 5–2 below.
Last I checked, "value of the item" was not the same as "cost of the upgrade".
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If the campaign admins wants the players to use the full value for access purposes, they need to make that clear in the document.Um, they did.
A character’s Fame score determines the maximum gp value of any items she can purchase from her faction, as detailed in Table 5–2 below.Last I checked, "value of the item" was not the same as "cost of the upgrade".
But you are not purchasing the item. Instead you are increasing the value of an item you currently own by the upgrade value. The upgrade rules specifically say "you never have to repay the original cost or sell your current item for half to upgrade to the next step". The original value is a sunk cost and not considered part of the purchase.
Um, they did.As frequently as this misconception pops up, I'd say there is room for improvement.
And Smurfy Hammer declares victory and does a little dance.
The "Rules Deserve Clarity" dance.
He dances quietly*, hoping nobody is watching.
* Note: The IRS and Securities and Exchange Commission have outlawed the "Rules Deserve Clarity" dance in all fifty states, the Virgin Islands, and Puerto Rico.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The upgrade rules specifically say "you never have to repay the original cost or sell your current item for half to upgrade to the next step".
How is the ability to upgrade (instead of buying replacements) in any way related to the topic of the maximum value of your gear?
The original value is a sunk cost and not considered part of the purchase.
The Fame cap has nothing to do with the cost of the "purchase". It says it restricts the value of the item. The fact that the item's total value was increased over the course of multiple purchases has nothing to do with it.
Your statements are true, but irrelevant to the topic at hand.
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To be fair, I was unclear on the issue, which is why I asked the question. The overriding response was that the 8,000 fame cap was for the purchase being made, not the overall cost of the item once the purchase was made.
This is explicitly clear if I'm buying a brand new item. If I start from scratch and purchase a +2 longsword. Its 8,3XX in gold.
But the language does not cover an upgrade. An upgrade is not an item. But the language refers to items being purchased and that the purchased item needs to be under the cap.
Well I spent 6,000gp, and that is under the cap.
I don't care either way. Bbauzh had actually hit 23, and I wanted to purchase the item, which is why I asked the question. So I will just wait and not use the upgrade until he hits 27 (he's currently at 25).
It isn't a huge deal, and didn't affect the outcome of the scenario he played in with the Dueling special ability.
But the fact that there can be so many different opinions on what this means, means it isn't as clear as it could be.
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The Fame cap has nothing to do with the cost of the "purchase". It says it restricts the value of the item. The fact that the item's total value was increased over the course of multiple purchases has nothing to do with it.
Your statements are true, but irrelevant to the topic at hand.
True, but an upgrade is not an item. And the language doesn't say, "the total cost of the item after an upgrade purchase." The language says, the, "total cost of the item purchased."
As such, the total cost of what I purchased was 6,000gp.
If it is to be interpreted that it is the total cost of the item after the purchase of the upgrade, then it needs to explicitly say that.
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True, but an upgrade is not an item. And the language doesn't say, "the total cost of the item after an upgrade purchase." The language says, the, "total cost of the item purchased."
As such, the total cost of what I purchased was 6,000gp.
If it is to be interpreted that it is the total cost of the item after the purchase of the upgrade, then it needs to explicitly say that.
To be fair, "total cost of the item" implies after an upgrade. That's why it's a total. Totally. Total. The language does not say "incremental cost of the item." The total value of your item is 83xx and the incremental cost of your upgrade is 6000.
But again, it's obvious that some people see this as intended and others do not. Less ambiguous language hurts no one and costs nothing.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
True, but an upgrade is not an item. And the language doesn't say, "the total cost of the item after an upgrade purchase." The language says, the, "total cost of the item purchased."
As such, the total cost of what I purchased was 6,000gp.
If it is to be interpreted that it is the total cost of the item after the purchase of the upgrade, then it needs to explicitly say that.
To be fair, "total cost of the item" implies after an upgrade. That's why it's a total. Totally. Total. The language does not say "incremental cost of the item." The total value of your item is 83xx and the incremental cost of your upgrade is 6000.
But again, it's obvious that some people see this as intended and others do not. Less ambiguous language hurts no one and costs nothing.
To be fair Mark, I do see the intent, and it makes common sense. Why would I be able to buy an upgrade to +2, but not buy a brand new +2 weapon? It wouldn’t make sense if you could.
However, the language says “total cost of the item purchased.” I’m not purchasing anything but an upgrade. So the total cost of my current purchase is 6,000gp.
It would be better if you tied Fame to total cost of item “owned” rather than “purchased.”
It would be an easy and elegant fix to the language used, that then could brook no argument.
I personally have no problem waiting to use the Dueling special ability of the Heavy Flail Bbauzh purchased until he gets 27pp. That’s the rules, so I absolutely have no problem abiding by them. But the fact that an entire table of players, minus one, thought differently, means the language is not clear.
Now I just need to find out, should I bloody up all my chronicles to correct the accounting and remove this purchase and then repurchase it on the chronicle that I got 27pp on, or should I just not use the special ability until I get 27pp.
This issue has come up over and over again ever since the Core Book was released and Season 1 started, and probably before that, but I was not around for Season 0. And every time it has come up whoever was in charge at the time has said the same thing, you have to have enough PA/Fame to cover the total cost of the item as if you were buying it new, even if you are just upgrading. I am pretty sure it was better spelled out in earlier versions of the Guide, but I only have 3.03 and 4.0 and cannot verify that.
This issue has come up over and over again ever since the Core Book was released and Season 1 started, and probably before that, but I was not around for Season 0. And every time it has come up whoever was in charge at the time has said the same thing, you have to have enough PA/Fame to cover the total cost of the item as if you were buying it new, even if you are just upgrading. I am pretty sure it was better spelled out in earlier versions of the Guide, but I only have 3.03 and 4.0 and cannot verify that.
Here's 2.2 and 2.1. My 2.0.1 and 1.x are elsewhere, but if you are really interested, I can post in about 12 hours.
Additional Equipment Rules
For ease of play in Pathfinder Society, a masterwork item
can always be upgraded to a +1 item without paying for
the masterwork cost again. In essence, you’re paying the
difference. This applies to upgrading from a +1 item to a +2
item and so on—you never have to repay the original cost or
sell your current item for half to upgrade to the next step.
Note that this only applies to the same item—you can’t, for
example, turn your masterwork rapier into a +1 greatsword.
Additionally, any magic items that have any usage
frequencies above 1/day (such as 1/week or 1/month and so
on) are now considered to have the frequency of 1/scenario.
...
On Table 11–2, you’ll find the specific details for how
to use TPA to gauge when your character can purchase
items above the basic limits. “Current TPA” is the total
needed to purchase items worth less than or equal to the
“Item Cost” limit in the second column. For example,
Bob’s character has achieved 27 TPA with the Cheliax
faction. As a result, Bob’s character may now purchase
any item worth less than or equal to 11,750 gp that’s legal
for play. Purchasing items in this way represents your
faction’s willingness and ability to find and sell you new
and better equipment, weapons, and magic items.
For ease of play in Pathfinder Society, a masterwork item
can always be upgraded to a +1 item without paying for
the masterwork cost again. In essence, you’re paying the
difference. This applies to upgrading from a +1 item to a
+2 item and so on—you never have to repay the original
cost or sell your current item for half to upgrade to the
next step. Note that this only applies to the same item—
you can’t, for example, turn your masterwork rapier into
a +1 greatsword.
Additionally, any magic items that have any usage
frequencies above 1/day (such as 1/week or 1/month and so
on) are now considered to have the frequency of 1/scenario.
...
On table 11.2 you’ll f ind the specif ic details for how
to use Prestige Award to gauge when your character can
purchase items above the basic limits. “Prestige Award
Attained” is the total needed to then purchase items
below the “Item Cost” limit in the second column.
For example, Bob’s character has achieved a Prestige
Award of 27 with the Cheliax faction. As a result, Bob’s
character may now purchase any item below 11,750
gp that’s legal for play. Purchasing items in this way
represents your faction’s willingness and ability to f ind
and sell you new and better gear, equipment, weapons,
and magic items.
My earlier copies are off site, and temporarily unavailable.
Yeah, those are worded a bit differently than 3.0 but do not give any extra details on how it works, so I guess I was remembering wrong on that. But those and 3.0 definitely say more than 4.0 does. So this goes along with the situation in another thread where the streamlining of text for 4.0 accidentally made things less clear rather than more clear.
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This issue has come up over and over again ever since the Core Book was released and Season 1 started, and probably before that, but I was not around for Season 0. And every time it has come up whoever was in charge at the time has said the same thing, you have to have enough PA/Fame to cover the total cost of the item as if you were buying it new, even if you are just upgrading. I am pretty sure it was better spelled out in earlier versions of the Guide, but I only have 3.03 and 4.0 and cannot verify that.
You know, it really doesn’t make any sense for some of the older players/gms/VCs to assume everyone understands the traditional intent, when said ambiguity is not clarified in a current document.
I’ve been playing since March. So I really only have the current documents and message board posts to refer to.
As such, I agree, common sense (which I wasn’t apparently using when purchasing said item, because if I’d sat back and thought about it, I’d have realized the common sense of it) says you shouldn’t be able to purchase an upgrade if you can’t purchase a new item the same way.
However, no matter how much anyone wants to say that using the word Total clearly states that its referring to the total cost of the item itself not just the total cost of the purchase (indeed I believe the word was imply rather than clearly states) is not reading it with a new set of eyes, but rather with their knowledge of traditional intent.
And, if you take the text in context, literally for exactly what it says, it does not actually imply anything when referring to purchasing an upgrade. An upgrade is not an item. The language refers to the total of the item purchased. In other words, it is referring to the current act of purchasing, not to what the item eventually becomes.
All that splitting hairs aside, I didn’t approach the initial purchase of the item in question with this mindset. I just asked a simple question. Received an answer, and went with it.
I have no problem making sure the situation is rectified and kosher the next time I play Bbauzh.
I also fully understand the intent, and agree with it.
But to alleviate this question coming up over time, over and over again, it would behoove everyone involved to clarify the language a bit, so that correct inference is not required.
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This debate sounds eerily similar to the "can I add +1 to my already +1 weapon for 2,000gp and thus make it +2?" debate that also often rears its head - it's something that a lot of people seem to get wrong despite the fact that it is spelled out pretty well in the rules (not perfectly, I'll admit, but lots of people seem to have gotten the correct interpretation).
I like the suggested clarification about the total cost of items "owned" rather than "purchased", but I'm not sure anything other than a couple of examples spelled out will prevent this issue from resurfacing.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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True, but an upgrade is not an item.
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The language says, the, "total cost of the item purchased."...the total cost of what I purchased was 6,000gp.
So you establish that X is not Y, then show that rule Z refers to Y, then say that X jives with rule Z? I'm glad you said later that the correct interpretation makes sense, because the above quote made my head hurt. ;)