I've been working on making an alchemist for PFS play and would like some advice and comments on what I have planned so far.
Lawful Neutral Human Alchemist (Beastmorph Archetype)
Initiative +3, Perception +4
Offense
Morning Star (1d8+4/20/2x)
Bombs (1d6+2/20/2x)
Lv1: Enlarge Person, Cure Light Wounds, Shield, Identify
Defense
AC 14, touch 11, flat-footed 13. . (+3 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 13 (1d8)
Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +3
Stats
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +0; CMB +4; CMD 15
Feats Iron Will, Toughness
Traits Reactionary, Indomitable Faith
Skills Craft:Alchemy, Disable Device, Knowledge:Dungeoneering, Knowledge:Nature, Perception, Spellcraft
Racial Replaced Skilled with Heart of the Wilderness
Languages Common, not sure about the other 2.
I will be gong the feral mutagen route, now onto my questions.
I was thinking going 2 alchemist, 1 barbarian, 6 alchemist, 3 chymist. Or should I drop barbarian and get another lv of chymist?
Benefits of taking 1 in barbarian - +10ft speed, Rage, Medium Armor, Martial Weapons (when not in mutagen form), Shields (when not in mutagen form?), +1 fort save.
Benefits of gaining 1 more in chymist - Brutality, +1 to extracts a day, +1 fort save, +1 reflex save.
I'm counting the 3rd lv in chymist instead of the 4th because the character seems to be over once you get to lv 12.
Some feats I was thinking of getting are Power Attack, Master Alchemist, Bloody Assault, Extra Discovery, and Extra Rage (if I get 1 in barbarian). Are there any other feats I should look into? I'm not sure how much crafting I would be doing to get use out of Master Alchemist.
Some discoveries I was thinking of taking are Feral Mutagen, Infuse Mutagen, Spontaneous Healing, Combine Extracts, Lingering Spirit. Not sure if spontaneous healing would be good since at alchemist lv8 you can only use it 4 times a day. But the above discoveries would make the alchemist hard to kill. Are there any others you recommend?
If you're going for Beastmorph, you should also go with Vivisectionist.
Master Chymist is good, but if you decide to stick with straight Alchemist, you'll eventually gain the ability to Pounce, because of Beastmorph. Pounce + Vivisectionist sneak attack dice + Greater Invisibility can add up to a lot of damage, especially when you factor in the other things you gain, like extra attacks through tentacles or vestigial arms.
So pounce is a charge+full attack action right? Could I do the full attack + sneak attack + Greater Invis combo without pounce? Not sure if I'd want to go straight alchemist. But that does sound like quite a bit of damage, I'll keep it in mind thanks. Lastly, vestigal arm/tentacle don't gain any extra attacks, or would the full attack action give vestigal arm a claw attack?
So pounce is a charge+full attack action right?
Yes. its very nasty, especially if you go vivisectionist and go first in the round. You pounce, and full attack sneak attack.
Could I do the full attack + sneak attack + Greater Invis combo without pounce?
Yes, and enlarge person is great for that, it means you're usually within a 5 foot step of your foes.
Also remember you can 5 foot step in between attacks if you haven't moved, so if your victim dies on the second attack you can 5 foot step and go for the third.
Lastly, vestigal arm/tentacle don't gain any extra attacks, or would the full attack action give vestigal arm a claw attack?
No extra attacks on the tentacle or arm But you can use the arm to hold a shield.
Lastly, vestigal arm/tentacle don't gain any extra attacks, or would the full attack action give vestigal arm a claw attack?No extra attacks on the tentacle. But you can use it to hold a shield.
Thanks, I think I'll do that, I hope to keep enlarge person up as much as possible. So if I have 2 vestigal arms and do a full attack while in feral mutagen form, would I have 2 or 4 claw attacks (assuming all hands are empty)?
Thanks, I think I'll do that, I hope to keep enlarge person up as much as possible. So if I have 2 vestigal arms and do a full attack while in feral mutagen form, would I have 2 or 4 claw attacks (assuming all hands are empty)?Lastly, vestigal arm/tentacle don't gain any extra attacks, or would the full attack action give vestigal arm a claw attack?No extra attacks on the tentacle. But you can use it to hold a shield.
2 claw attacks, whether you get 1 arm or two. The discovery explicitly states that you can't get any extra attacks with it.
SKR has said that it wasn't his intent for the arms to be used with two weapon fighting either.
2 claw attacks, whether you get 1 arm or two. The discovery explicitly states that you can't get any extra attacks with it.
SKR has said that it wasn't his intent for the arms to be used with two weapon fighting either.
Alright, didn't think so. Is there any real use for the arms besides having another hand to hold things?
I'm curious how the arms would work if you were holding Beaststrike Clubs in them. At that point, they'd technically become natural attacks, so you should be able to add them to your normal attack routine.
If you were to take advantage of the claws as basically secondary natural attacks, the point would be to do it under the effects of Greater Invisibility. The half Strength to damage wouldn't matter as much because it'd be all about the Sneak Attack damage, and hitting flat-footed enemies while under the effect of a mutagen would help suck up the attack penalties.
I'm curious how the arms would work if you were holding Beaststrike Clubs in them. At that point, they'd technically become natural attacks, so you should be able to add them to your normal attack routine.
If that worked, it would be so awesome. But sounds like it would be a pain to get them in organized PFS play.
You had mentioned wanting Barbarian levels. If you did, dip two levels for a rage power, and pick up Fiend Totem, giving you a gore attack. If you could combine that with extra attacks through Vestigial Arms wielding Beastrike Clubs for natural attacks, on top of the Feral Mutagen, you'd have 6 natural attacks.
Combined with Pounce, you'd be able to pull off all 6 of those on a charge, adding Sneak Attack to each one. Invest in a Holy Amulet of Mighty Fists, and you'd be adding another 2d6 to each one of those attacks. And the best part is is they're all primary natural attacks, so you'd have no penalties.
You had mentioned wanting Barbarian levels. If you did, dip two levels for a rage power, and pick up Fiend Totem, giving you a gore attack. If you could combine that with extra attacks through Vestigial Arms wielding Beastrike Clubs for natural attacks, on top of the Feral Mutagen, you'd have 6 natural attacks.
Combined with Pounce, you'd be able to pull off all 6 of those on a charge, adding Sneak Attack to each one. Invest in a Holy Amulet of Mighty Fists, and you'd be adding another 2d6 to each one of those attacks. And the best part is is they're all primary natural attacks, so you'd have no penalties.
Why/how do you add sneak attack to each natural attack? I thought it was just used once per turn. I couldn't get pounce and fiend totem before lv 12 which is pretty much the end of organized play right?
EDIT: Nevermind, read the wrong totem.
You can get Sneak Attack for as many attacks in a given round that would qualify. Greater Invisibility would mean that every single one of your attacks would gain the Sneak Attack dice. Flanking would also allow that.
That's the beauty of Sneak Attack in Pathfinder. It's no longer once per round. That's why you want to maximize your number of attacks per round, because of all that extra damage.
Alright, didn't think so. Is there any real use for the arms besides having another hand to hold things?
Holding a potion (so you don't need a move action to get it) - its listed use
Holding a shield
Its VERY hard to say what definitely can or can't be done with it by intent. For PFS play i would avoid them on the basis that what they can do will vary wildly depending on the DM and you can't swap out your feats
If I'm calculating this correctly, I will do an average of roughly 71 damage per full action at lv 2 when buffed (enlarge person, str feral mutagen) and assuming I can sneak attack. That goes up to 80 at lv 3 (rage), 108 at lv 4 (lesser fiend totem). Dam that's brutal and those are only the average hits. As BNW mentioned, I think I'll skip the vestigal arms due to there's no telling if it will work as planned.
A few things I would like clarified.
Anyone in PFS can use a holy amulet (or holy whatever) without any penalties, right? Since evil alignments are not allowed in organized play. I was thinking of making my mutagenic form Chaotic Neutral.
For the holy amulet of mighty fists to bypass dr it must be +3 or greater, correct? Would there be a point in having an amulet and the feat eldritch claws?
Would the effects of bomb thrower (add alchemist and chymist lvs together to determine bomb damage) apply to sneak attack as well? Since they both gain another die at every odd lv and they use the same type of die for damage.
I'm thinking of a build like this. How is it?
lv 1 Alchemist - Iron Will, Toughness (feats)
lv 2 Alchemist - Feral Mutagen (discovery)
lv 3 Barbarian - Rage, Power Attack (feat)
lv 4 Barbarian - Lesser Fiend Totem (rage power)
lv 5 Alchemist - Extra Rage (feat)
lv 6 Alchemist - Infuse Mutagen (discovery)
lv 7 Alchemist - Extra Discovery (feat), Lingering Spirit (discovery)
lv 8 Alchemist - Spontaneous Healing (discovery)
lv 9 Alchemist - Extra Discovery (feat), Preserved Organs (discovery)
lv 10 Alchemist - Combine Extracts (discovery)
lv 11 Chymist - ??? (feat)
lv 12 Chymist - Dual-Mind? (Advanced Mutagen)
I notice I'm kinda ignoring feats for more discoveries, are there any good suggestions for feats I should take?
EDIT: Did a bit of searching and the feat Improved Natural Attack (bestiary pg315) doesn't look too bad. Would raise my claws from 1d6 to 1d8 (from 1d8 to 2d6 when large).
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If you're looking for a two level dip might i suggest Ranger, It will get you access to two feats that could really improve your damage, Improved Natural Attack and Aspect of the Beast, with those you will have 4 claw attacks and one bit attack with the claws acting as one size larger (Note: this is assuming you have taken the vestigial arms discovery twice to have the extra arms to have claws on)It would also get you acces to be able to use a wand of strong jaw should you be able to afford it
If you're looking for a two level dip might i suggest Ranger, It will get you access to two feats that could really improve your damage, Improved Natural Attack and Aspect of the Beast, with those you will have 4 claw attacks and one bit attack with the claws acting as one size larger (Note: this is assuming you have taken the vestigial arms discovery twice to have the extra arms to have claws on)It would also get you acces to be able to use a wand of strong jaw should you be able to afford it
That sounds pretty good Vehement, especially if I can get one of those wands. Though I think it's more of a question of finding the wand, rather than being able to afford it. Would I have to get the vestigal arms before I get aspect of the beast? Or does it not matter? But I get the feeling it won't be allowed because the description of vestigal arm says that it doesn't give any extra attacks or actions.
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If I'm calculating this correctly, I will do an average of roughly 71 damage per full action at lv 2 when buffed (enlarge person, str feral mutagen) and assuming I can sneak attack.
Would the effects of bomb thrower (add alchemist and chymist lvs together to determine bomb damage) apply to sneak attack as well? Since they both gain another die at every odd lv and they use the same type of die for damage.
On your calculation, how come your damage is that high? I can count up to about 40 average damage when using claws, but that's still all.
About your question though, no. Many people houserule MC levels to add sneak attack though.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I like vivisectionist but bombs are pretty awesome and you are essentially giving up your ranged combat options almost entirely. One of the great/ fun things about a strength based alchemist is they are pretty decent switch hitters. Vivisectionist pretty much takes that all away.
Both are fun and pretty potent, it's just a matter of choosing versatility or specialization.
I like vivisectionist but bombs are pretty awesome and you are essentially giving up your ranged combat options almost entirely. One of the great/ fun things about a strength based alchemist is they are pretty decent switch hitters. Vivisectionist pretty much takes that all away.
Both are fun and pretty potent, it's just a matter of choosing versatility or specialization.
Bah, specialize all to hell! You only get one action a round, doesn't matter what you could be doing with it, you only get to do one of them. Besides, you've got your friends around you to pick up your slack if there's a hole in your plan. You trust them right?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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And when the archers in the rafters are filling you with arrows the switch hitter in the group is able to put some hurt on them while you cry in a corner.
I've seen way too many all melee parties in PFS and drilled a few of them with arrows more than a couple times. I also hate having situations where I can't do things.
And when the archers in the rafters are filling you with arrows the switch hitter in the group is able to put some hurt on them while you cry in a corner.
I've seen way too many all melee parties in PFS and drilled a few of them with arrows more than a couple times. I also hate having situations where I can't do things.
With a high strength score you can ....
hit them with a thrown rock for more damage than most arrows.
climb up after them, sunder the bows.
Toss the halfling up
Bring down the house.
A specialized PARTY is definitely a bad idea, but for a melee character the bombs really don't synergize, the sneak attack does.
If I'm calculating this correctly, I will do an average of roughly 71 damage per full action at lv 2 when buffed (enlarge person, str feral mutagen) and assuming I can sneak attack.
Would the effects of bomb thrower (add alchemist and chymist lvs together to determine bomb damage) apply to sneak attack as well? Since they both gain another die at every odd lv and they use the same type of die for damage.
On your calculation, how come your damage is that high? I can count up to about 40 average damage when using claws, but that's still all.
About your question though, no. Many people houserule MC levels to add sneak attack though.
For the average I was just taking half of the max you could roll.
18 str (base stat) +4 str (str mutagen) +2 str (enlarge person) = a str mod of +7
Bite 2d6 +7
Claw x2 1d8 +7
Sneak Attack x3 1d6 +7
Bite: does 9-19 dmg, average of 13 dmg
Claw: does 8-15 dmg, average of 11 dmg x2 (2 claw attacks)
Sneak Attack: does 8-13 dmg, average of 10 dmg x3 (3 sneak attacks)
For a total of of 49-88 dmg, average of 65 dmg.
It's a little different than before, guess I either added something I shouldn't have earlier, or I'm missing something now.
How did you come to your calculation? Did you maybe forget to include the bite attack (along with the following sneak attack)?
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That sounds pretty good Vehement, especially if I can get one of those wands. Though I think it's more of a question of finding the wand, rather than being able to afford it. Would I have to get the vestigal arms before I get aspect of the beast? Or does it not matter? But I get the feeling it won't be allowed because the description of vestigal arm says that it doesn't give any extra attacks or actions.
I would thing that you would need the two extra limbs before the aspect of the beast to be able to add on the claws, and as to whether or not you could apply them to the vestigial arms I am reading that as the standard thing they put on any multi armed creature saying that just because they have many arms doesnt mean they automatically get to attack more.
You don't add your Strength as extra damage on Sneak Attacks. It is simply extra dice added to the hit that caused the damage.
So your damage would be 2d6+7 (bite) +1d8+7 (x2, claw) +3d6 (sneak attack), for an average damage of 44, maximum 67, minimum 28.
I would thing that you would need the two extra limbs before the aspect of the beast to be able to add on the claws, and as to whether or not you could apply them to the vestigial arms I am reading that as the standard thing they put on any multi armed creature saying that just because they have many arms doesnt mean they automatically get to attack more.
1 other question about this, with enlarge person and wand of strong jaw, the claws would be considered gargantuan, so I would take a -4 penalty to hit due to the increased size right?
You don't add your Strength as extra damage on Sneak Attacks. It is simply extra dice added to the hit that caused the damage.
So your damage would be 2d6+7 (bite) +1d8+7 (x2, claw) +3d6 (sneak attack), for an average damage of 44, maximum 67, minimum 28.
Ah, so it's not considered a melee attack? That sucks.
Nope. Sneak attacks do sneak attack damage on EVERY attack. The bite is a sneak attack, the first claw is a sneak attack, the second claw is a sneak attack.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
Greater invisibility is the way to go for multiple sneak attacks.-James jacobs Linky
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1 other question about this, with enlarge person and wand of strong jaw, the claws would be considered gargantuan, so I would take a -4 penalty to hit due to the increased size right?
you would take the increased size penalties only for the enlarge person, you do not take penalties for effective size increases like strong jaw and imp natural attacks
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For the average I was just taking half of the max you could roll.
18 str (base stat) +4 str (str mutagen) +2 str (enlarge person) = a str mod of +7
Bite 2d6 +7
Claw x2 1d8 +7
Sneak Attack x3 1d6 +7Bite: does 9-19 dmg, average of 13 dmg
Claw: does 8-15 dmg, average of 11 dmg x2 (2 claw attacks)
Sneak Attack: does 8-13 dmg, average of 10 dmg x3 (3 sneak attacks)For a total of of 49-88 dmg, average of 65 dmg.
It's a little different than before, guess I either added something I shouldn't have earlier, or I'm missing something now.
How did you come to your calculation? Did you maybe forget to include the bite attack (along with the following sneak attack)?
The way I calculate this is pretty similar. Your base damage, that is all the damage you get without rolling, is 21(3 x str mod) points. Avg. of d6 is 2.5, avg of d8 is 3.5 and avg of 2d6 is 5.5. Add those together(three natural attacks, three rolls of SA) and you'll get 20 avg. damage(yeah, yeah, sue me, I'm an English Major) with your rolls. That's 41 points worth of punishment when added together.
Getting thatt much without Power Attack means you will kill just about anything before level 5 with one full attack(HP's will catch up around there)! That's powerful, although sneak attack and buffing make your damage peaks pretty situtational.
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Some general considerations:
With all this said, I can understand why they didn't add natural attack buffing spells like Lockjaw and Greater Magic Fang to the alchemist extract lists. There's got to be a limit to the awesomeness somewhere.
Of course, getting a potion of greater magic fang is pretty easy, all things considered. It's kind of sad you can't make them yourself from a friendly druid's casting of the spell though.
I've been using a magical falchion and the claws intermittently. The weapon against dr and when I need powerful single attacks(charge, etc) and the claws against mooks and and low ac brutes.
I suggest getting a backup weapon anyway, since your mutagen isn't going to last the whole day and not all situations allow brewing a new one. Especially since so many classes in PF require buffs to remain effective and getting those people to wait while you let your adrenalin brew simmer...well, it might happen, but I've learned to not rely on people's patience.
Ah, so it's not considered a melee attack? That sucks.You don't add your Strength as extra damage on Sneak Attacks. It is simply extra dice added to the hit that caused the damage.
So your damage would be 2d6+7 (bite) +1d8+7 (x2, claw) +3d6 (sneak attack), for an average damage of 44, maximum 67, minimum 28.
Think of Sneak Attack as situational variable extra damage. It'd be like if you could only get the extra damage from a Flaming weapon while flanking or attacking a flat-footed foe. The damage is added to every attack, but it is not an attack in itself. Which you should be thankful for, because that means you don't have to roll another attack roll or deal with DR yet again.
stuff
True, I was going to carry a weapon for when I'm not in mutagenic form. Early on think I'll just conserve it more for the end boss.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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And when the archers in the rafters are filling you with arrows the switch hitter in the group is able to put some hurt on them while you cry in a corner.
I've seen way too many all melee parties in PFS and drilled a few of them with arrows more than a couple times. I also hate having situations where I can't do things.
With a high strength score you can ....
hit them with a thrown rock for more damage than most arrows.
With a far lower chance and likely less damage than a bomb would do, certainly less damage on average due to misses.
climb up after them, sunder the bows.
Which is fine if rafters were the only time ever that you had to cope with this problem. It could easily be a ravine, a flying enemy, a particularly fast/ mobile enemy, incorporeal critters, (and since it's PFS SWARMS!!!)...
A specialized PARTY is definitely a bad idea, but for a melee character the bombs really don't synergize, the sneak attack does.
It's PFS, you have no clue what your PARTY composition is going to be. In a home group you have the benefit of being able to hyperspecialize. In PFS you might well end up in an all melee party, or an all ranged/ caster party. Switch hitter does quite well in either one. Strength based vivisectionist... not so much.
Overall, the point isn't that one is better than the other, just pointing out that blindly seeking DPR is not the only way to think about character effectiveness
Overall, the point isn't that one is better than the other, just pointing out that blindly seeking DPR is not the only way to think about character effectiveness
-Its not blind. I'd rather go home from the occasional game saying "well that fight sucked" than go home every time thinking "I hit like a dry sponge" . The three claws just aren't going to be relevant without putting some thought into it, especially when you loose so much damage if you can't full attack.
If ranged attacking is a problem, how about a composite long bow with a good str bonus? Say with a +10 str bonus you would do 11-30 dmg compared to the 3-8 dmg per bomb die (assuming an int bonus of +2 and no splash dmg).
Now as for swarms, an alchemist fire would do 3-8 dmg +3 splash dmg per square + another 1-6 dmg the next turn for a total of 13-23 dmg on a swarm that covers a 2x2 area. A bomb would do 3-8 dmg per bomb die +3 splash dmg per square (+1 for each extra bomb die).
1 die: 12-17 dmg
2 dice: 18-28 dmg
3 dice: 24-39 dmg
4 dice: 30-50 dmg
This is all assuming a int bonus of +2 and swarms that cover a 2x2 area. So sure bombs would be great for swarms, or anytime there's splash dmg. But to lower your melee dmg by about half just for up to a 2x (2.5x at best) dmg increase on swarms, doesn't sound worth it to me.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Overall, the point isn't that one is better than the other, just pointing out that blindly seeking DPR is not the only way to think about character effectiveness
-Its not blind. I'd rather go home from the occasional game saying "well that fight sucked" than go home every time thinking "I hit like a dry sponge" . The three claws just aren't going to be relevant without putting some thought into it, especially when you loose so much damage if you can't full attack.
This is just laughable. As if the choice were hitting like a dry sponge or going vivisectionist? Nice try.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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If ranged attacking is a problem, how about a composite long bow with a good str bonus? Say with a +10 str bonus you would do 11-30 dmg compared to the 3-8 dmg per bomb die (assuming an int bonus of +2 and no splash dmg).
With Max strength at 1st level 20STR+4 for mutagen you have to be 8th level with a +4 belt to get a +10 strength bonus. I'm guessing a +2 headband at that point which is roughly going to cost the same as a +1 composite bow for that +10 strength.
So at 8th level you drop one discovery into fast bombs and you are doing 4d6+3 or 17 points damage average per hit. With a 'normal' +1 longbow and that +10 strength you are dealing 1d8+11, or 16.5 points damage on average. And the bombs are going to hit more than twice as often than the longbow against typical ACs.
These are all SWAGs, If you feel ambitious you can actually do the math but bombs are vastly better than archery *unless you spend a lot of feats/ gold/ abilities on archery* which isn't what we are talking about here.
Now as for swarms, an alchemist fire would do 3-8 dmg +3 splash dmg per square + another 1-6 dmg the next turn for a total of 13-23 dmg on a swarm that covers a 2x2 area. A bomb would do 3-8 dmg per bomb die +3 splash dmg per square (+1 for each extra bomb die).
I don't know any GMs who splash damage for each space you hit. Likewise you don't deal splash damage to a creature (and you treat a swarm as a creature) that you deal primary damage on. If yours does, awesome, but that math doesn't work out in most games. Generally swarms take 1d6+INT damage on a hit plus another 1d6 damage a round later.
This is all assuming a int bonus of +2 and swarms that cover a 2x2 area. So sure bombs would be great for swarms, or anytime there's splash dmg. But to lower your melee dmg by about half just for up to a 2x (2.5x at best) dmg increase on swarms, doesn't sound worth it to me.
Your +10 strength alchemist (at level 8 I assume):
Bite: 1d8+10 + 6 (Power Attack) + 1d6 (Amulet of Mighty fists - cold)Average damage 25
Claws 1d4+10 + 6 (Power Attack) + 1d6 (Amulet of Mighty fists - cold)
Average damage 24 each, 48 total
Sneak attack adds 4d6 per or roughly 42 points damage... so you are 'giving up' roughly 35%. Nowhere near half damage as you suggest.
Even that is an ideal number which doesn't reflect reality. Any time you play a character who uses sneak attack you inevitably wind up burning move actions to position. Sometimes you burn an action and provoke an attack. Some enemies are just wily and refuse to allow themselves to be flanked by positioning themselves in a corner or just maneuvering a lot.
I know these things are a problem because I am playing a vivisectionist and deal with it about twice a month when I play PFS. If I were to take an educated guess at what percentage of the time I get a full attack action sneak attack in I would guess somewhere between 20-30% of the time.
I'll let you plug in the number, worse case scenario is you are 'losing' out on somewhere around 36% of your damage. What percentage of the time is that number relevant? As I said above, my experience is something far less than half the time.
To make things weirder, the switch hitter can replace all those rounds of movement + single sneak attack with a full attack action using bombs. The 8th level single sneak attack does 25 points of damage. For comparison the switch hitter with a single discovery dedicated to bombing (fast bombs) is going to do 40 points of fire damage on a full attack. All of this is with the same strength based stats.
That's the other massive benefit to the switch hitter, he can full attack almost every single round of the game and can be effective against far more enemies. Vivisectionist is constantly losing move actions (or someone else is) to ensure flanking.
With Max strength at 1st level 20STR+4 for mutagen you have to be 8th level with a +4 belt to get a +10 strength bonus. I'm guessing a +2 headband at that point which is roughly going to cost the same as a +1 composite bow for that +10 strength.
So at 8th level you drop one discovery into fast bombs and you are doing 4d6+3 or 17 points damage average per hit. With a 'normal' +1 longbow and that +10 strength you are dealing 1d8+11, or 16.5 points damage on average. And the bombs are going to hit more than twice as often than the longbow against typical ACs.
These are all SWAGs, If you feel ambitious you can actually do the math but bombs are vastly better than archery *unless you spend a lot of feats/ gold/ abilities on archery* which isn't what we are talking about here.
Ah yea, I made a mistake on the bow damage. heh, So Sure bombs will do better than a bow, it was just a suggestion for doing ranged damage without bombs.
I don't know any GMs who splash damage for each space you hit. Likewise you don't deal splash damage to a creature (and you treat a swarm as a creature) that you deal primary damage on. If yours does, awesome, but that math doesn't work out in most games. Generally swarms take 1d6+INT damage on a hit plus another 1d6 damage a round later.
I guess mine does then, on a different lv 1 character I used an alchemist fire on a swarm, rolled a 4 yet did 7 dmg total to it.
Your +10 strength alchemist (at level 8 I assume):
Bite: 1d8+10 + 6 (Power Attack) + 1d6 (Amulet of Mighty fists - cold)
Average damage 25Claws 1d4+10 + 6 (Power Attack) + 1d6 (Amulet of Mighty fists - cold)
Average damage 24 each, 48 totalSneak attack adds 4d6 per or roughly 42 points damage... so you are 'giving up' roughly 35%. Nowhere near half damage as you suggest.
Even that is an ideal number which doesn't reflect reality. Any time you play a character who uses sneak attack you inevitably wind up burning move actions to position. Sometimes you burn an action and provoke an attack. Some enemies are just wily and refuse to allow themselves to be flanked by positioning themselves in a corner or just maneuvering a lot.
I know these things are a problem because I am playing a vivisectionist and deal with it about twice a month when I play PFS. If I were to take an educated guess at what percentage of the time I get a full attack action sneak attack in I would guess somewhere between 20-30% of the time.
I'll let you plug in the number, worse case scenario is you are 'losing' out on somewhere around 36% of your damage. What percentage of the time is that number relevant? As I said above, my experience is something far less than half the time.
To make things weirder, the switch hitter can replace all those rounds of movement + single sneak attack with a full attack action using bombs. The 8th level single sneak attack does 25 points of damage. For comparison the switch hitter with a single discovery dedicated to bombing (fast bombs) is going to do 40 points of fire damage on a full attack. All of this is with the same strength based stats.
That's the other massive benefit to the switch hitter, he can full attack almost every single round of the game and can be effective against far more enemies. Vivisectionist is constantly losing move actions (or someone else is) to ensure flanking.
I think the biggest problem I have with this is that you are not including any buffs besides mutagen. My numbers are at lv 5, not 8. So at lv 5 buffed with enlarge person (+2 str and large), feral str mutagen (+4 str), rage (+4 str, +4 con).
Bite: 2d6+9 +4 (Power Attack)
Average damage 20
Claws 1d8+9 +4 (Power Attack)
Average damage 22 each, 44 total
Horn (Gore) 2d6+9 +4 (Power Attack)
Average damage 20
Sneak Attack 2d6
Average damage 7 each, 28 total
Now note this is without any equipment at lv 5. I assume you don't apply the bonus from power attack to sneak attack, correct?
This is just laughable. As if the choice were hitting like a dry sponge or going vivisectionist? Nice try.
If he has to move around and can't make all 3 claw attacks he will indeed be hitting like a dry sponge. Sneak attacks synergize incredibly well with the builds multiple attacks and access to invisibility, the bombs (for his build) require an unusual circumstance AND a melee heavy party. If there's that many meleers, there should be places you can flank...
The sneak attacks can keep the damage up when he hasn't had time to pre buffIts also a boatload of fun when you manage to land the full attack pounce or improved invisibility sneak attack and roll 15d6, as opposed to doing Meh damage with either the bombs or the claws all the time.
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A strength bow is probably a bad idea for an alchemist, since you never know what they're strength is going to be at on a given day, but a chucked spear or knife adds your strength bonus without breaking the bank.
A beastmorph alchemist will get pounce at level 10, two levels of Ranger, or four of druid will get you aspect of the beast turning your 2 vestigal arms into clawed ones giving you one bite (1d8) and four claws (2x 1d8, 2x 1d6 if you took imp natural attacks claws at your second ranger level)
The vestigial arms, by virtue of the clause in the discovery, can't get you extra attacks whether you put claws, daggers, or chainsaws in them.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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This is just laughable. As if the choice were hitting like a dry sponge or going vivisectionist? Nice try.If he has to move around and can't make all 3 claw attacks he will indeed be hitting like a dry sponge. Sneak attacks synergize incredibly well with the builds multiple attacks and access to invisibility, the bombs (for his build) require an unusual circumstance AND a melee heavy party. If there's that many meleers, there should be places you can flank...
As I pointed out above, sneak attack doesn't make that huge a difference in the damage. Less than 35%... most likely far less. You can make up for that by doing damage in situations where you can't be effective otherwise.
Invisibility is not that great with sneak attack because it only effects one attack sequence (assuming they are flat footed). Greater invisibility is pretty great but... it's rounds per level which means you are often going to be burning a round drinking it which could otherwise be spend putting the hurt on someone.
The sneak attacks can keep the damage up when he hasn't had time to pre buff
Its also a boatload of fun when you manage to land the full attack pounce or improved invisibility sneak attack and roll 15d6, as opposed to doing Meh damage with either the bombs or the claws all the time.
I don't know where you get "meh damage" I've never had problems keeping up with damage with a strength based alchemist without sneak attack. Maybe you have some basic problems with your build and are trying to compensate for it with sneak?
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A strength bow is probably a bad idea for an alchemist, since you never know what they're strength is going to be at on a given day, but a chucked spear or knife adds your strength bonus without breaking the bank.
Basically unless you can attack touch AC the strength based alchemist is not hitting very often with ranged attacks so it doesn't matter how big your damage bonus is. Medium BAB and low dexterity are never a good ranged combination, particularly past 5th level or so.
As I pointed out above, sneak attack doesn't make that huge a difference in the damage. Less than 35%...
...your math is completely at odds with your conclusion. A 35% increase in damage is HUGE. What other class feature or spell even comes close to that?
most likely far less.
Its only far less if he's fully buffed, which takes time.
You can make up for that by doing damage in situations where you can't be effective otherwise.
He could do as much by picking up wand and maxing out use magic device, using a skill and gold rather than an irreplaceable resource. He doesn't have a super high int, fast bombs, or discoveries that make bombs better.
Lets say that he has a 35% boost in damage. That means that if he gets ambushed by flying monkeys with bows 35% of the time and spends the entire fight twiddling his claws he comes out even.
Invisibility is not that great with sneak attack because it only effects one attack sequence (assuming they are flat footed). Greater invisibility is pretty great but... it's rounds per level which means you are often going to be burning a round drinking it which could otherwise be spend putting the hurt on someone.
He spends 1 round on a buff that increases his damage 35% he comes out ahead in a 4 round fight. (or more, if in that one round opponents come to him instead of him going to them)... and thats on offense alone. Defensively he gets a 50% miss chance, difficulty in determining which square he's in to attack, and can't be targeted by single target SOD spells.
For invisibility the strategy is to , on the first round when you would normally move into position and attack once, instead cast and move into position (standard+move action) to flank
His other option is pounce, which means he can full attack on either holding still, a 5 foot step, OR a charge.
I don't know where you get "meh damage" I've never had problems keeping up with damage with a strength based alchemist without sneak attack. Maybe you have some basic problems with your build and are trying to compensate for it with sneak?
I'm getting meh damage off of his 1d8+4 bite if he isn't buffed.
Mayby you could keep the conversation off of implications of incompetence in lieu of making a point.
Basically unless you can attack touch AC the strength based alchemist is not hitting very often with ranged attacks so it doesn't matter how big your damage bonus is. Medium BAB and low dexterity are never a good ranged combination, particularly past 5th level or so.
Past level 7 it shouldn't matter, an alchemist will have access to fly and be able to solve the problem with his claws.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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You can under IDEAL circumstances get a 35% increase in damage. Under realistic circumstances it's far less than that. Particularly when you take into account that the switch hitter has alternate ways of doing damage effectively.
You are obsessed with this idea that your "PEAK" DPR is the only factor and completely overlook the fact that you don't operate at that peak all the time. You also conveniently ignore that sometimes you have to give up actions to utilize that peak DPR and an alternate build could be doing something useful during those down rounds.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'm getting meh damage off of his 1d8+4 bite if he isn't buffed.
I guess I've been cheating because the strength based alchemists I've built have never done 1d8+4 damage... I don't think for a single attack. This is exactly what I was referring to. You seem to vastly underestimate what can be done without sneak attack.
You can under IDEAL circumstances get a 35% increase in damage. Under realistic circumstances it's far less than that. Particularly when you take into account that the switch hitter has alternate ways of doing damage effectively.
-Ahhh. i Get you. I thought you were saying it was less than 35% because of buffs. [The more non-sneak attack buffs you include the LESS advantage the vivisectionist has as the sneak attack becomes a lower and lower percentage of total damage.]
You are obsessed with this idea that your "PEAK" DPR is the only factor and completely overlook the fact that you don't operate at that peak all the time.
Even if you can't look into my head and see that isn't true, I've been pointing out the massive drop in damage the build has when you have to move around, so clearly i'm considering ideas that are less than optimal.
You also conveniently ignore
Alright, knock that off.
that sometimes you have to give up actions to utilize that peak DPR and an alternate build could be doing something useful during those down rounds.
There's other things to do in those rounds, especially for an alchemist. Buffing is one, use magic device is another, and the problem the bombs are supposed to mitigate will largely go away once he's obtained fly. The bombs damage is also going to scale down (effectively) as he levels because he's not putting much into int or getting fast bombs.
I guess I've been cheating because the strength based alchemists I've built have never done 1d8+4 damage...
If i were making it i'd be using a huge two handed weapon to take advantage of the 1.5 x strength. This alchemist is built to get his claws and fangs dirty.
I don't think for a single attack. This is exactly what I was referring to. You seem to vastly underestimate what can be done without sneak attack.
I do, because that's what i usually see.
I'm pretty sure that i said above that in all the games I've been in people are moving around too often for full attacks to be all that common without pounce or a special ability. Your experience, and his, may differ.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Strength based alchemist was viable before vivsectionist, it's still viable now. It's peak damage is lower but it's more versatile. If peak damage is your thing, then run a vivisectionist. If you have no clue what group you are going to be playing in next week... maybe versatility has a bit of value.