I'm looking at running a brief dark sun campaign and would like to hear opinions on what level you would think "works best".
It seemed to me initially to be a gritty, struggle-for-survival type setting and "hence" would work best at low levels. I've just picked up eight or so of the original adventures and I was surprised to see them generally favor the higher level ranges so it's made me rethink that initial position. I'm now leaning towards mid paragon, the arc ending in the early epic levels.
Any thoughts from those who know more about dark sun and/or 4th edition would be appreciated.
|
Well, if memory serves 2e DS started at 3rd level due to the sheer lethality of the setting. That has been toned done for 4e, in part because the philosophy is to make lower-level characters more durable in 4e anyway compared with previous editions, while higher level characters are not so godlike. I guess so far in our campaign (we haven't reach Epic but are approaching it) things do start getting more complicated around mid-paragon, as the paragon path powers begin kicking in in earnest.
However, if gritty is what you want, then lower levels are still less complicated. How experienced are you at running a 4e game? Because it is a slightly different discipline for 3e, what with tracking conditions, saving throws and so on. If you are fine with that, then no problem, but if not, lower levels will make life easier.
Well, if memory serves 2e DS started at 3rd level due to the sheer lethality of the setting. That has been toned done for 4e, in part because the philosophy is to make lower-level characters more durable in 4e anyway compared with previous editions, while higher level characters are not so godlike. I guess so far in our campaign (we haven't reach Epic but are approaching it) things do start getting more complicated around mid-paragon, as the paragon path powers begin kicking in in earnest.
However, if gritty is what you want, then lower levels are still less complicated. How experienced are you at running a 4e game? Because it is a slightly different discipline for 3e, what with tracking conditions, saving throws and so on. If you are fine with that, then no problem, but if not, lower levels will make life easier.
Cheers - I didnt realise Dark Sun worked off a higher base in 2nd edition (I've only just picked up the old stuff) but I guess that makes sense given the lethal nature of the setting and the fragility of 1st level characters 'in the old days'.
Running 4th edition isnt too bad for us (we are currently in P3 in one campaign and just reaching paragon tier in a concurrent Age of Worms game). I was initially thinking the plethora of powers would make things 'feel' less dangerous - on rethinking it though, I guess the key to a Dark Sun campaign is the out of combat challenge to survival. It probably isnt relevant what level the PCs are for those. Given I plan on having the PCs be significant movers and shakers in the recent Tyr liberation, I think paragon makes more sense.
I'm looking at running a brief dark sun campaign and would like to hear opinions on what level you would think "works best".
It seemed to me initially to be a gritty, struggle-for-survival type setting and "hence" would work best at low levels. I've just picked up eight or so of the original adventures and I was surprised to see them generally favor the higher level ranges so it's made me rethink that initial position. I'm now leaning towards mid paragon, the arc ending in the early epic levels.
Any thoughts from those who know more about dark sun and/or 4th edition would be appreciated.
It doesn't really matter about the levels, since you can easily adjust 4e monsters to the proper levels, and you'll have to convert the encounters anyway.
Low-level in ad&d was suitable because of high level wizard spells. This is not a problem in 4e.
I also got some of the old DS modules, and I run the campaign with this:
- DS rules: inherent bonuses, free psionic cantrip
- houseruled defiler/preserver features, as I don't like the 4e one.
- only essentials classes, or psionics (ardent, psion, battlemind).
- half monster hp, double monster dmg dice.
The last two points make the fights reasonably quick and deadly. Raise dead is cheap and without lasting maluses, but has 'story costs'.
We started the campaign at level 3, because then everyone has 2 feats and a utility to start with.
I'm looking at running a brief dark sun campaign and would like to hear opinions on what level you would think "works best".
It seemed to me initially to be a gritty, struggle-for-survival type setting and "hence" would work best at low levels. I've just picked up eight or so of the original adventures and I was surprised to see them generally favor the higher level ranges so it's made me rethink that initial position. I'm now leaning towards mid paragon, the arc ending in the early epic levels.
Any thoughts from those who know more about dark sun and/or 4th edition would be appreciated.
One of the Dark Sun factors is that when in the wilds (outside of a city state) the characters should always be travelling carefully, activily on the lookout for the natural hazards (sandstorm, blazing heat, difficult terrain) and dangerous creatures (either very tough or in their hundreds, including roving elven bands who will happily strip a group of equipment and leave them to die).
I'd run a combat encounter in the desert that re-inforces the dangers, the PC's barely survive. Even hammer them with something really nasty then have a group of elves 'rescue them', bind them up and strip them of their gear and leave them in a cave to die...yes in the old Dark Sun elves were that cruel to even save people only to leave them to die).
I'd start the game at 1st level personally, it gives the PC's the chance to develope with the character.
The use of Inherant bonus is an excellent idea and I also agree that the Dark Sun defiling rules are not great. Generally you were either trained the techniques of preserving or you weren't. I'd still use the Defiling rule from the book as an option.
I was going to use the rule that any preserver would need to use a minor action when spellcasting to draw power slower but they could take a feat 'Superior Preservation' which removes the need for the minor action.
The being the case, any Defiler (non-preserver) that casts a spell causes pain for 'all' living creatures around him\her, no actual damage but it draws a lot of unwanted attention. Make the range of the area of pain maybe 1 burst square per power level.
Just suggestions, obviously to do the changes to the Arcane Defiler\ preserver thing may be too much messing around if your a bit new to running 4E so you may want to hold off that and use Arcane casting as per the book.
It doesn't really matter about the levels, since you can easily adjust 4e monsters to the proper levels, and you'll have to convert the encounters anyway.Low-level in ad&d was suitable because of high level wizard spells. This is not a problem in 4e.
I also got some of the old DS modules, and I run the campaign with this:
- DS rules: inherent bonuses, free psionic cantrip
- houseruled defiler/preserver features, as I don't like the 4e one.
- only essentials classes, or psionics (ardent, psion, battlemind).
- half monster hp, double monster dmg dice.The last two points make the fights reasonably quick and deadly. Raise dead is cheap and without lasting maluses, but has 'story costs'.
We started the campaign at level 3, because then everyone has 2 feats and a utility to start with.
Thanks. We use the inherent bonuses and doubled damage, half hp (or similar) as a matter of course. Essentials only would be an issue since everyone else is still using the offline CB (so all the darksun stuff will be trickier anyhow). The 4th edition defiled/preserver was my first exposure, so that seems ok to me.
Can I ask which modules you converted? Any you'd recommend as particularly suitable or less so?
One of the Dark Sun factors is that when in the wilds (outside of a city state) the characters should always be travelling carefully, activily on the lookout for the natural hazards (sandstorm, blazing heat, difficult terrain) and dangerous creatures (either very tough or in their hundreds, including roving elven bands who will happily strip a group of equipment and leave them to die).I'd run a combat encounter in the desert that re-inforces the dangers, the PC's barely survive. Even hammer them with something really nasty then have a group of elves 'rescue them', bind them up and strip them of their gear and leave them in a cave to die...yes in the old Dark Sun elves were that cruel to even save people only to leave them to die).
I'd start the game at 1st level personally, it gives the PC's the chance to develope with the character.
The use of Inherant bonus is an excellent idea and I also agree that the Dark Sun defiling rules are not great. Generally you were either trained the techniques of preserving or you weren't. I'd still use the Defiling rule from the book as an option.
I was going to use the rule that any preserver would need to use a minor action when spellcasting to draw power slower but they could take a feat 'Superior Preservation' which removes the need for the minor action.
The being the case, any Defiler (non-preserver) that casts a spell causes pain for...
Cheers. I like the idea of a particularly brutal introduction to the rigors of desert life as an introduction. None of us have ever played darksun before.
The minor action imposition is appealing too - I have one player who really enjoys the challenge of optimizing his use of actions. I think he'd enjoy it..
The minor action imposition is appealing too - I have one player who really enjoys the challenge of optimizing his use of actions. I think he'd enjoy it..
I've used something similar.
Oh, and minions are immune. That is, they count as taking part of the damage to be distributed, but don't die from it.
Can I ask which modules you converted? Any you'd recommend as particularly suitable or less so?
None, yet. A mostly arena-based introductory session where the events around the death of King Kalak are replayed (as in the book series), and the chaos in Tyr afterwards. I will start with Road to Urik next.
But anyway, the way I usually 'convert' ad&d modules is simply to prepare the 4-6 or so most likely combat encounters, as I try to use traps/hazards and varied terrain in every fight to create an interesting battle field. The rest is simple, thanks to 4e's online tools and the skill dc tables. So prep time is about 50/50 spent between the combat prep and reading and fleshing out the NPCs and main plot.
I've prepared most the first session for Road to Urik now. I like the start, there are a lot of role playing encounters that set the tone and mood of dark sun quite nicely. What I've decided to do however is remove the NPCs from the books, and let the players take over their part.
I think I'll run all the 2* encounters either as a few skill checks and roleplaying or as proper skill challenges. I really like about the adventure that most combat is optional, and often a suboptimal solution. However I will probably throw in one or two encounters showing the chaos in Tyr after Kalak's death, with opportunities for battle of the players want to.