Attack Spells

[Meudian]

So I spent a great deal of time online today looking for information concerning what exactly is an attack spell. And I can not find much information about it in the Core Rulebook. Myself, I always thought attack spells were something that caused physical damage to one or more targets. Now after talking to a couple friends, there is a debate going on as to whether or not more spells should be covered by this. Namely, and lack of a better term, de-buffing spells such as Doom and Bane. Some arguement is that something like that will bring you up on the creature's radar andn have them view you as a threat. Others argue that the creature would have to first notice and connect what you did with the debilitating effect, and pull from MMOs claiming that hitting something with a debuff is no different than standing next to something that hates you.

So any opinions or rules that are in the book, that I couldn't find, please share them.

[pipedreamsam]

I would say an attack requires a roll (scorching ray). Also, anything that does direct damage is pretty much an attack (fireball, magic missle). As for debuffing I would have the monster use spellcraft to try to determine the spell being cast (in this case doom) if the monster successfully identifies the spell it could then take threat assessment into affect (just how important are all those -2's?). If the monster can't identify the spell it is fair to say that it knows the guy waving his hands around and saying funny words did something, but its not exactly sure what (for all it knows it could have been a buff).

Pathfinder is a lot different than MMO's. Certainly both share similar aspects, but the execution can vary so widely that they carry no weight.

[Magnu123]

The officials have, from what I understand, left this intentionally vague. In particular, because of its potential effects on other spells like invisibility and sanctuary. In short, the only rule is what your DM decides.
This seems to be an answer not a lot of people are happy to receive.

[Matt Stich]

Magnu123 wrote:

In short, the only rule is what your DM decides.

This seems to be an answer not a lot of people are happy to receive.

Wonder why...

[Meudian]

I understand where you are coming from Pipedreamsam. Pathfinder is very differnt from MMOs, but at the same time you can classify almost all the spells into certain catagories just like you can on MMOs. The difference here is a number of those spells in Pathfinder can really push the envelope for what you would normally put them under which kind of sucks.

And Magnu, this goes into direct relation to Sanctuary. We recently got a new player to our group who wants to "debuff" under the protection of Sanctuary, and one of the friends involved in the discussion just happens to be the DM. Unfortunately he is kind of a people pleaser and is concerned that if he makes a bad judgement call, then his game is going to go down the drain due to unhappy players. What blows even more, is I see both sides to the arguement, which is kind of why I came here hoping to get some good input that could validly swing this one way or another to help my DM out.

[pipedreamsam]

It might be best just to do it on a case by case basis. Ray of exhaustion is a debuff, but requires an attack roll and would not work while something like Sleep would be pretty fair to use imo. I would go ahead and say that all battlefield control spells would be allowed (though he is a divine caster so those are essentially nonexistent).

[Magnu123]

Fair enough.
Not letting this thread stray too far from the topic, I would personally consider debuffs "hostile action" but not "attacks". Compare it to setting up a snare that they will walk into. Your target is not forced into the situation, you are just manipulating their environment to your advantage. Same with debuffs: If you effect their environment and they get hurt because of it, you still didn't attack them.
More apt: compare a debuff to a healing or other buff: Does making your allies stronger count as an attack if they hurt your enemy? It's just a matter of degrees of separation between you and the attack being made (eventually).

[Jiggy]

The answer to the OP's question really depends on the purposes for which he wants spells labeled as "attack spells".

If it's just so you can tell your friends that "about [number] of my spells are attack spells" for tactical or bragging purposes, then whatever you think is reasonable.

If it's to see what gets bonuses from a bard's Inspire Courage ability, then it's only spells with an attack roll (such as Ray of Frost, but not Magic Missile) that get the bonus on attack rolls (obviously), and of those, only those that deal HP damage get the damage bonus (so +1 damage on Ray of Frost, but not Fireball or Ray of Enfeeblement).

If it's to see what will end your Invisibility spell, then it includes any spell that targets (or includes in its AoE) an enemy (as perceived by the invisible caster).

So Meudian, what exactly are you asking for?

[Gilfalas]

Attack spells are any spell that does damage, that makes an attack roll to hit, that forces a saving throw or that needs to breach SR to affect a target in a way they wouldn't wish.

The core rules, IIRC, state that you know whenever you are forced to make a saving throw. You may not know the source or what it is for but you at least know you have had to dodge something or that your body fought off some effect or other or that you had to steel your will against something so casting 'debuffs' from a hidden vantage relative to your target is possible but it will put them on alert.

No they will not bee line to you unless they would somehow be aware of where you are and that you were the cause but once they do, they would definately see you as a threat.

That is how we play it.

[Asphesteros]

Yea, seems like if you're targetting it, its in the area of effect, and the thing you're doing to it is not harmless, then it's an attack.

The kinds of things that hinder and harm that they given as examples as not counting as an attack are situations were the harm is at lease one step removed from the action, like the example they give of you summon something and IT attacks, or you blast the bridge and now oops they're falling. Simmiar to summoning, then, would be like laying a trap, explosive runes, etc.

[Mogart]

I would say that attack spells are anything that forces the monster to take damage or forces a saving throw. Pretty much the only thing you could do is buff the monster, heal party members or buff monsters to not be casting attack spells. However, if you greased a section of ground and the monster slipped, that would not count.