Say I have a monk with the panther style tree, I walk around with my move action provoking opportunity attacks from enemies by entering and exiting their threatened area and trade attacks with them as per the panther style tree. All attacks are made at full attack bonuses.
When I have used up my move, I am adjacent to the last enemy I provoked from, I then use my standard action to attack, and declare that I am fighting defensively, so my attack bonus for this attack is lessened, but I gain the fighting defensively bonus to AC.
Is the situation I have proposed kosher? That is to say not declaring fighting defensively until I actually attack, but since I have attacks of opportunity earlier in the round those use my full unmodified base attack bonus?
prototype00
Say I have a monk with the panther style tree, I walk around with my move action provoking opportunity attacks from enemies by entering and exiting their threatened area and trade attacks with them as per the panther style tree. All attacks are made at full attack bonuses.
When I have used up my move, I am adjacent to the last enemy I provoked from, I then use my standard action to attack, and declare that I am fighting defensively, so my attack bonus for this attack is lessened, but I gain the fighting defensively bonus to AC.
Is the situation I have proposed kosher? That is to say not declaring fighting defensively until I actually attack, but since I have attacks of opportunity earlier in the round those use my full unmodified base attack bonus?
prototype00
I am fairly sure that fighting defensively is more than just a standard action, as a result your method isn't quite legal.
I am fairly sure that fighting defensively is more than just a standard action, as a result your method isn't quite legal.Say I have a monk with the panther style tree, I walk around with my move action provoking opportunity attacks from enemies by entering and exiting their threatened area and trade attacks with them as per the panther style tree. All attacks are made at full attack bonuses.
When I have used up my move, I am adjacent to the last enemy I provoked from, I then use my standard action to attack, and declare that I am fighting defensively, so my attack bonus for this attack is lessened, but I gain the fighting defensively bonus to AC.
Is the situation I have proposed kosher? That is to say not declaring fighting defensively until I actually attack, but since I have attacks of opportunity earlier in the round those use my full unmodified base attack bonus?
prototype00
My confusion arises from the fact that it is listed under *standard actions* in the pathfinder srd.
prototype00
Fighting Defensively is standard action or as part of an attack action. Total Defense is standard action. There is no defensive stance that requires a full round action.
So... you're implying that I can declare fighting defensively when I use my standard action to attack? And not before?
prototype00
So... you're implying that I can declare fighting defensively when I use my standard action to attack? And not before?
Yes. Under the Standard Action heading in the Attacks section it says "Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action" just above critical hits.
No, that doesn't work; fighting defensively states that you take a penalty on all attacks made in that round. This would include any attacks of opportunity you made during that round of combat.
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC for the same round.
No, that doesn't work; fighting defensively states that you take a penalty on all attacks made in that round. This would include any attacks of opportunity you made during that round of combat.
What if the player in question uses a move action before their standard action?
Surely fighting defensively is not retroactive and also surely the player could not declare it until they took their Standard Action.
General rule... is that players have to declare their action set before they start. Especially on what are effectively combat stances.
Is this in the book some where? Or is this more of an accepted idea? This has never come to light at my table. (Not that my table is anything to get excited about).
What if the player in question uses a move action before their standard action?
Surely fighting defensively is not retroactive and also surely the player could not declare it until they took their Standard Action.
Why not? According to the action itself, it would apply retroactively. That's the primary reason that every GM I've played with requires fighting defensively to be declared before any actions are taken in a round.
Is this in the book some where? Or is this more of an accepted idea? This has never come to light at my table. (Not that my table is anything to get excited about).
As far as I'm aware, it's not in the book. But a fair few do accept the practice, if for no other reason that to avoid retroactive changes that might be made in a turn, such as the one described in this instance.
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If a player used a Move Action to pull out a weapon after their Standard Action of attacking, they wouldn't be able to say that they were using that weapon all the time.
Similarly, if a player uses a Standard Action to fight defensively after they have used their Move Action, then they were not fighting defensively up to that point. No attack penalty, no AC bonus.
I agree with you, Mergy. The effects of fighting defensively state they apply the entire round. Hence, one would need to declare he is fighting defensively before any actions are taken in that round; if not declared up front, it cannot be declared at a later time.
The only problem I can see here is that there are two entries for Fighting Defensively.
One is a Full Round Action, the other is a Standard Action. I can see declaring with the Full Round version, but I can't wrap my head around the standard action one.
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If a player used a Move Action to pull out a weapon after their Standard Action of attacking, they wouldn't be able to say that they were using that weapon all the time.
Similarly, if a player uses a Standard Action to fight defensively after they have used their Move Action, then they were not fighting defensively up to that point. No attack penalty, no AC bonus.
I agree with this ruling. I believe the "all attacks this round" line is there to emphasize that until that player's next turn their attacks are all at a penalty, so AoOs that opponents trigger in the mean time will have to take that penalty into account.
And no, there is no rule stating you have to state later actions to use earlier ones. Anything that must be declared ahead of time (such as Power Attack) explicitly notes when you must declare it. Fighting defensively does not make such a note. In fact, you could theoretically do this panther maneuver as a move action, then use total defense afterwards. Heck, you can even make one attack of a full-round attack action before dedicating to the "full-round" portion (two-weapon fighting and special full-round action types not-withstanding).
While it might seem exploitative to force opponents into triggering AoOs, they ARE spending a few feats to do this and do not get the fighting defensively AC benefit while moving (which means they could quite literally get stung for pulling this off).
PS: My ruling is slightly (but not notably) influenced by the fact that I don't EVER want to rewind combat for any reason. Doing so is just a pain and is never worth it.
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I agree with you, Mergy. The effects of fighting defensively state they apply the entire round. Hence, one would need to declare he is fighting defensively before any actions are taken in that round; if not declared up front, it cannot be declared at a later time.
The thing is I don't think we agree. It's possible that the rules were never prepared for something like a Drunken Master of Many Styles using Panther style, but I don't think the bonus or penalty of fighting defensively should apply until the character has actually taken the fighting defensively standard action.
Move Action: Monk moves around, provoking attacks of opportunity and counterattacking with Panther Style. All this happens at full BAB.
Standard Action: Attacks an enemy, fighting defensively. At this point only does the -4 to attack and +2 to AC apply, because the monk was not fighting defensively until this point.
Both are standard action.
Thats.. just not possible. You can't make a standard action then make a full attack (full round action).
See here:
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC for the same round.
Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action
You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.
For the record, I agree with Mergy :)
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Both are standard action.Thats.. just not possible. You can't make a standard action then make a full attack (full round action).
See here:
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC for the same round.
Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action
You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.For the record, I agree with Mergy :)
Sorry, I thought you were referring to Defensively versus Total Defense (that latter is a standard action).
Fighting Defensively is a *minimum* of standard action, but can also be done as full-round.
/confusion
I understand that point, Mergy. However, that violates the conditions of fighting defensively itself. It would no longer effect a character's AC for an entire round. It would no longer effect a character's attacks for an entire round.
Fighting defensively needs to be declared before any other action because its effects have an impact for the entire round of combat. To fight defensively, all attacks in a round suffer a penalty. If you've already made attacks without that penalty, you cannot declare you are fighting defensively later.
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I understand that point, Mergy. However, that violates the conditions of fighting defensively itself. It would no longer effect a character's AC for an entire round. It would no longer effect a character's attacks for an entire round.
Fighting defensively needs to be declared before any other action because its effects have an impact for the entire round of combat. To fight defensively, all attacks in a round suffer a penalty. If you've already made attacks without that penalty, you cannot declare you are fighting defensively later.
As I stated earlier, I disagree with your interpretation of "round." Just because a player does a move action then a standard action that has an effect lasting 1 round, doesn't mean it lasts until after their move action on the previous turn or requires him to do it first.
Can you imagine a player using dirty trick for blind after having done a move and telling him "Oh, sorry, you had to declare that before moving or it doesn't work since it lasts a round." You can't, because it doesn't work that way.
"A round" means "this lasts until the beginning of their next turn", but is shorter to say. That's it. If it has to be declared first it will explicitly say as much.
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I understand that point, Mergy. However, that violates the conditions of fighting defensively itself. It would no longer effect a character's AC for an entire round. It would no longer effect a character's attacks for an entire round.
Fighting defensively needs to be declared before any other action because its effects have an impact for the entire round of combat. To fight defensively, all attacks in a round suffer a penalty. If you've already made attacks without that penalty, you cannot declare you are fighting defensively later.
As I stated earlier, I disagree with your interpretation of "round." Just because a player does a move action then a standard action that has an effect lasting 1 round, doesn't mean it lasts until after their move action on the previous turn or requires him to do it first.
Can you imagine a player using dirty trick for blind after having done a move and telling him "Oh, sorry, you had to declare that before moving or it doesn't work since it lasts a round." You can't, because it doesn't work that way.
"A round" means "this lasts until the beginning of their next turn", but is shorter to say. That's it. If it has to be declared first it will explicitly say as much.
Thank you.
I think the OP has a point here. Traditionally, we've used the fighting defensively that applied to all attacks the entire round, but reading the PRD, I don't see how it works otherwise. It doesn't say that the penalty applies to all attacks beforeother than the one used as a standard action, so I'm with the OP there.
Plus, running through threatened squares doesn't seem much like fighting defensively to me.
EDIT: didn't mean to say no other attacks, just that it didn't say it included previous attacks in the round.
As I stated earlier, I disagree with your interpretation of "round."
You're free to. However, then you're using house rules in your game. That's fine, but doesn't really apply to a rules discussion.
Fighting defensively applies to all attacks made in a round. If a player makes such an attack in a round without that penalty, then he cannot declare that he is fighting defensively at a latter point in that round.
That might be so, but keep in mind that the AC bonus was not gained for the AoO that the character provoked when he used the Panther Parry feat.
Thus there is no gain to AC and as such no penalty to Attack for those retaliatory strikes.
This would, by extrapolation, make it okay to declare to fight defensively once the movement has ended and one wishes to make an attack action.
Fighting defensively applies to all attacks made in a round. If a player makes such an attack in a round without that penalty, then he cannot declare that he is fighting defensively at a latter point in that round.
While I agree with your assessment, the fact that the attacks they are making are Attacks of Opportunity and not attack actions excludes them from being able to fight defensively when making the attack (even if the player wanted to).
I also disagree with declaring "fighting defensively" before making any attack. In my mind, that's just a cheap way to get a Defensive Boost (which you can now apply to attacks of opportunity).
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As I stated earlier, I disagree with your interpretation of "round."You're free to. However, then you're using house rules in your game. That's fine, but doesn't really apply to a rules discussion.
Fighting defensively applies to all attacks made in a round. If a player makes such an attack in a round without that penalty, then he cannot declare that he is fighting defensively at a latter point in that round.
He's not using houserules, and just because you disagree with his perfectly valid interpretation does not give you the right to say that he is.
Fighting Defensively does not say that you are required to announce it at the beginning of your turn. Therefore it is not necessary.
General rule... is that players have to declare their action set before they start. Especially on what are effectively combat stances.
That's not altogether true, as a person can make a single attack, THEN choose to take a move action or make a full attack.
You don't necessarily have to declare all your actions at the start of your turn, but you do need to make declaration before you take any given action.
He's not using houserules, and just because you disagree with his perfectly valid interpretation does not give you the right to say that he is.
Actually it does, because a round is specifically defined within the rules.
Indeed it is.
Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world; there are 10 rounds in a minute of combat. A round normally allows each character involved in a combat situation to act.
Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)
When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
There are six types of actions:
Standard
Move
Full-round
Swift
Immediate
Free
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
The round is defined as typically consisting of a number of certain actions carried out over a span of 6 seconds. No where is it stated that all actions are required to be announced in order before any of them are made, in fact, the text concerning full attacks point us in the opposite direction. It clearly states that you don't have to declare a full attack before you have seen the results of your initial attack that turn.
After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you've already taken a 5-foot step, you can't use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.
AFAIK the only thing you would have to declare is TWF, which governs the penalties to hit for your attacks. Then if you decide to move, or not attack further, you'll still incur the penalties for your first attack since you have to declare TWF before you attack.
I am of the opinion that "round" indicates simply until your next turn.
I am unsure why people are under the impression that a round is your turn, turn =/= round, your actual turn is a tiny amount of time that occurs in the 6 seconds.
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Indeed it is.
Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world; there are 10 rounds in a minute of combat. A round normally allows each character involved in a combat situation to act.
Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)
When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
There are six types of actions:
Standard
Move
Full-round
Swift
Immediate
Free
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.The round is defined as typically consisting of a number of certain actions carried out over a span of 6 seconds. No where is it stated that all actions are required to be announced in order before any of them are made, in fact, the text concerning full attacks point us in the opposite direction. It clearly states that you don't have to declare a full attack before you have seen the results of your initial attack that turn.
After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you've already taken a 5-foot step, you can't use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of...
The end result being that fighting defensively could be declared after a move action, which no penalty to panther counterattacks taken earlier that round.
At our table once your AC and or attack bonus would be "tested" it is understood that if you want to use fighting defensively or other actions whose effects last through out the round, you make the decision then. The monk would either say "my ac is X", or "it is X+2 for fighting defensively" and from that point would take the penalty to attack as well as have the ac bump the entire round. This keeps us from having to deal with things in a retroactive way and makes sure bonuses/penalties are in effect for the whole round as per RAW. Technically a round starts as soon as you are able to act, so the penalty/bonus should be in effect for everything you do that round, not some partial action.
At our table once your AC and or attack bonus would be "tested" it is understood that if you want to use fighting defensively or other actions whose effects last through out the round, you make the decision then. The monk would either say "my ac is X", or "it is X+2 for fighting defensively" and from that point would take the penalty to attack as well as have the ac bump the entire round. This keeps us from having to deal with things in a retroactive way and makes sure bonuses/penalties are in effect for the whole round as per RAW. Technically a round starts as soon as you are able to act, so the penalty/bonus should be in effect for everything you do that round, not some partial action.
This interpretation, without disrespect to your table and houserules (I houserule it the same way in my game), would be in accord with RAW *if* Fighting Defensively was a Free Action that explicitly stated that it required declaration prior to the resolution of any effects involving the character's AC value or attack bonus in order to function. As this is not the way that the action is presented, I have to agree with Mergy as well. That is, per RAW, one can take a Move action without the benefits or penalties of Fighting Defensively and then, as part of an attack as a Standard Action, declare that one is Fighting Defensively and apply the benefits and penalties for doing so to all of one's attacks from that point (including the attack as a Standard Action) until the start of one's turn in the next round.
The only other possible, consistent way to interpret the RAW is that any character that executes a Move or Move-Equivalent action prior to a Standard Action to Attack cannot Fight Defensively, which is silly, and almost certain to be contra-indicated by (admittedly noon-RAW but nevertheless Paizo sourced) suggested actions in combat for NPCs. :P Knotty problem, though.