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Alright, splitting hairs, I know, but I was thinking about Thassilonian sin magic the other day, and the thing is, it's AWESOME. In a thematic sense, magic fueled by the corruption of various virtues is probably my favorite substystem of magic ever. We've got got all the classic seven sins - pride, lust, sloth, wrath, envy, gluttony, and, of course, greed.
My problem is the little blurb we get in Pathfinder #2, which mentions the seven virtues of rule from which these were initially corrupted. Respectively, they seem to be honest pride, fertility, rest, righteous anger, eager striving, abundance, and wealth. The analogy we have here just bugs me. The seven origins of sin magic are nice, simple, one-word flaws, and to me, it seems that the original virtues should be phrased in a similar fashion. Not only are several of these overly vague or a little wordy, many of them are traits not easily attributable to an individual (unlike the seven sins). Now, I'm not harping on the creators of rune magic, because, as I said, it's freaking epic. It's just that this one aspect doesn't seem to rise to the same standard of flavor. To that end, I've compiled a quick list of my own re-flavored Virtues of Rule, and elected to post them here in case anyone else is bothered by this particular facet of Thassilon lore. I've endeavored to keep each virtue down to a single word, one descriptive of a trait that can be possessed by a person (one who would be fit to rule), and indicative of their personality or their temperament rather than physical possessions or achievements. Each sin is meant to indicate one of the original virtues taken to an extreme. In any case...
Pride - Confidence
Lust - Passion
Sloth - Restraint
Wrath - Justice
Envy - Ambition
Gluttony - Gratification
Greed - Frugality (still not entirely pleased with that one)
Pride - Confidence
Lust - Passion
Sloth - Restraint
Wrath - Justice
Envy - Ambition
Gluttony - Gratification
Greed - Frugality (still not entirely pleased with that one)
Yoinked.
Really... I'd contribute, but I think you've got everything down pat.
For Greed... Perhaps you could take a different approach. Have them represent Philanthropy/Generosity before being corrupted. However, it isn't so much of a perversion of the original virtue as an outright reversal, so it's far from perfect... I think I rather prefer yours.
But I've contributed now. My concience is clear. I can steal these now.
Possible angles to look at.
Switch Greed to Generosity, most primitive cultures based a chieftans reputation on how "open handed" he was distributing wealth among the people...as opposed to hording it away.
Switch Sloth to something discriptive of willingness to step foreword and act on behalf of the people....I'll have to give a proper one word discriptor some thought ;)
Otherwise they all look good IMO.
Oooh, I like that interpretation of generosity.
For a while, I was batting around the notion of using restraint as the counterpart for greed (as they could both involve hording) and using humility for sloth, demonstrating the dangers of complacency.
I'm finding that as I have thought about how to represent the virtues, I was initially looking at what the ruler "gained"....which is more in keeping with the perversion commited when they where turned into sins.
I'm trying to look at each of them from the angle of how does a GOOD ruler behave, to defend and benefit his people and lands.
The peoples good will, the kingdoms prosperity, and their perception of a given ruler as a "good" ruler is the reward of virtue.
How about Diligence as the counter to Sloth ?
Ahh, and here's where we've got a potential debate on our hands. If I remember correctly, the Seven Virtues of rule were written by Xin, not his subjects. I look at them as virtues which would lead one to effectively govern a nation, not that would lead one to be widely loved by it's people (those these need to be mutually exclusive).
Ahh, and here's where we've got a potential debate on our hands. If I remember correctly, the Seven Virtues of rule were written by Xin, not his subjects. I look at them as virtues which would lead one to effectively govern a nation, not that would lead one to be widely loved by it's people (those these need to be mutually exclusive).
True enough......
Xin's stated goal was to "create a civilised paradise within his empire"....however since we don't really know what his alignment was, it's hard for us to determine how he may have interpreted paradise.However, both in real life cultures, and most fantasy settings, a civilised paradise is generally one in which the ruler brings prosperity to the land and it's people as a whole, so I think it's pretty safe to assume that prior to the Runelords perverting the virtues into sin...they where of a much more benevolant nature ;)
A tyrant may hold power over the people for some time, but eventually a tyrant is always brought low, and more often than not his subjects have helped hasten the event.
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Pride/Confidence - "Be confident and your people will follow"
Lust/Passion - "Show passion and your people will love you"
Sloth/Patience - "An impatient ruler risks all"
Wrath/Justice - "Trust is earned by a just and firm hand"
Envy/Ambition - "A dying nation is one without growth"
Gluttony/Subsistence - "Feed your people and you will never know revolt"
Greed/Conservation - "Conserve the bounty of today so you never see famine of tomorrow"
Didn't City of the Seven Spears deal with this?
I thought Greed Virtue was referred to as gathering (and sharing/distributing) wealth...and so on.
Pride/Confidence - "Be confident and your people will follow"
Lust/Passion - "Show passion and your people will love you"
Sloth/Patience - "An impatient ruler risks all"
Wrath/Justice - "Trust is earned by a just and firm hand"
Envy/Ambition - "A dying nation is one without growth"
Gluttony/Subsistence - "Feed your people and you will never know revolt"
Greed/Conservation - "Conserve the bounty of today so you never see famine of tomorrow"
There we go!
Yup; the virtues of rule are pretty important to the central location of Serpent's Skull. "City of Seven Spears" had a LOT to say on the topic.
See....this is what happens when you spread information across so many different products....I didn't even know it had been addressed ;)
Yup; the virtues of rule are pretty important to the central location of Serpent's Skull. "City of Seven Spears" had a LOT to say on the topic.See....this is what happens when you spread information across so many different products....I didn't even know it had been addressed ;)
It's like a treasure hunt!
After looking at a friends copy, I like the way the virtues are tied to different cultural roles (ie. farmers, Warriors, government, etc), it lends a strong feel of when each of these groups does there part well, the society prospers.
Some of the names for virtues still bother me.....but lot's of interesting ideas as to how to go foreword with the virtues.
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This is how my list is shaping up.....
Prudence (Pride): Associated with the Governing body of society.
Justice (Wrath): Associated with the warrior cast, and millitary functions.
Temperance (Gluttony): Associated with the Priest/Scholar cast.
Wealth (Greed): Associated with the Marchants.
Abundance (Envy): Associated with the craftsman and artisans.
Fertility (Lust): Associated with the farmers.
I'm pretty happy with how it's shaping up ;)
Aaaarggghh
Spoilers for other APs!
I'm playing in that one.
Flagged for spoilers with extreme prejudice.
Aaaarggghh
Spoilers for other APs!
I'm playing in that one.
Flagged for spoilers with extreme prejudice.
OMG.....so sorry....it didn't even occure to me :(
Can't seem to get in and edit it now either.....again...apologies.
Here's a link to an older thread I started in which I address this very issue as well as my take on what the original Sihedron might have looked like.
Here's a link to an older thread I started in which I address this very issue as well as my take on what the original Sihedron might have looked like.
VERY nice job creating alternate runes ;) well done.
While I like Sin Magic, and am definitely incorporating it into my next campaign, my trouble came with sloth. Because in real life it was originally more like depression, and the lack of caring about things, rather than essentially just being lazy (which is kind of a hard concept to build an enemy or ruler around).
You could go with the seven virtues from real life, specifically:
Lust/Chastity
Gluttony/Temperance
Greed/Charity
Sloth/Diligence
Wrath/Patience
Envy/Kindness
Pride/Humility