Monk and Flurry of Blows

[Mr Jade]

Core Rulebook wrote:

There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed.

Core Rulebook wrote:

Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a f lurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional

attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fight ing feat(even if the monk does not meet the
prerequisites for the feat).

As such, we are having an argument. Firstly, I would like to request that a Paizo employee field these questions as many other players across many other forums have chimed in with their answers, and we are looking for an official ruling. Not to say that non-employees can't answer, just that I would love a response from Paizo.

ALPHA: Can the monk make off-hand attacks? I say no, but my friend claims, "it says there is no such thing as off hand attacks because monks can make only main hand attacks." Sounds sketchy to me, but here we are asking.

BRAVO: Can flurry stack with normal attacks, i.e., can the monk attack at his +0 BAB, then make his two flurry attacks? That would generate either 3 attacks (assuming no off-hand attacks), or 4 attacks (main+off+flurry).

Again, I come down on the side of the monk gets 1 attack at 1st level at 0 BAB, or two attacks using flurry at -1/-1. But lets see how Paizo says!

[Starbuck_II]

Mr Jade wrote:

BRAVO: Can flurry stack with normal attacks, i.e., can the monk attack at his +0 BAB, then make his two flurry attacks? That would generate either 3 attacks (assuming no off-hand attacks), or 4 attacks (main+off+flurry).

Again, I come down on the side of the monk gets 1 attack at 1st level at 0 BAB, or two attacks using flurry at -1/-1. But lets see how Paizo says!

In Pathfinder, Flurry is 2 weapon Fighting (with monk weapons) so you add 1 extra attack.

Also Pathfinder made Flurry use Monk LV as BAB+ BAB of other classes (instead of actual Monk BAB + BAB of other classes).

So add TWF penalty (-2/-2) +1 BAB (assuming lv 1 Monk) = -1/-1.

So you can't TWF and Flurry since you already are.

[Mr Jade]

Starbuck_II wrote:

In Pathfinder, Flurry is 2 weapon Fighting (with monk weapons) so you add 1 extra attack.

Also Pathfinder made Flurry use Monk LV as BAB+ BAB of other classes (instead of actual Monk BAB + BAB of other classes).

So add TWF penalty (-2/-2) +1 BAB (assuming lv 1 Monk) = -1/-1.

So you can't TWF and Flurry since you already are.

Which is what I've been arguing.

[Abraham spalding]

Alpha: You are already two weapon fighting -- you simply have some exceptions to the normal rules (i.e. you don't need the feats, you get to use better BAB, and none of your attacks are treated as being off hand attacks, all attacks simply add your strength modifier no matter what type of weapon is used (two handed or not)).

Bravo: No flurry of blows is a full round action in and of itself so you can't combine it with other full round actions (like a full attack) and it specifically states you can't combine it with outside attack forms (such as natural attacks).

[Mr Jade]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Alpha: You are already two weapon fighting -- you simply have some exceptions to the normal rules (i.e. you don't need the feats, you get to use better BAB, and none of your attacks are treated as being off hand attacks, all attacks simply add your strength modifier no matter what type of weapon is used (two handed or not)).

How are they already two-weapon fighting without using flurry or anything at all?

[Grick]

Mr Jade wrote:

Can the monk make off-hand attacks?

Yes. He can fight with two weapons just like every other class. He would probably be crazy to do so, but he can. Grab a couple daggers and go to town. He could even take the TWF feats and get even more off-hand attacks.

However it's assumed a monk would rather be using Flurry, which acts like TWF, but better.

Have you found a case where a monk attack being off-hand matters, other than power attack?

[Mr Jade]

Grick wrote:

Yes. He can fight with two weapons just like every other class. He would probably be crazy to do so, but he can. Grab a couple daggers and go to town. He could even take the TWF feats and get even more off-hand attacks.

However it's assumed a monk would rather be using Flurry, which acts like TWF, but better.

Have you found a case where a monk attack being off-hand matters, other than power attack?

Yes, the question was can the monk make unarmed off-hand attacks. I may have left that a little too vague.

[Roaming Shadow]

Alpha: I think you're looking at the wording slightly askew. The "no off-hand attacks" means that any part of his or her body a monk can hit with is treated as though it were a primary hand. It doesn't matter if it's his right fitst, left fist, his knees or his head, none are treated as being off-hand attacks and so never suffer the off-hand penalty, as other combatants would. So no matter what part of the body he attacks with, he gets his standard attack bonus with full strength modifier.

A fighter who weilds to weapons, if for some reason he wants to attack with just his off hand weapon. He gets his attack bonus as normal (the huge attack penalty to off hand is only for TWF), but adds only half his strength modifier. A monk, on the other hand could be using both hands to cary something, and yet could kick someone with full strength applied, as no unarmed attack from a monk is considerd "off-hand".

Bravo: Flurry of Blows is it's own stand alone Full Round Action, as stated in its entry. You cannot take a Standard Action and a Full Round Action in the same turn (at least, not under normal conditions). Therefore, you can choose to make a standard attack as a Standard Action, or make a Flurry of Blows attack as a Full Round Action.

"Again, I come down on the side of the monk gets 1 attack at 1st level at 0 BAB, or two attacks using flurry at -1/-1."

That's...exactly what the rules say actually. The one attack at BAB is a Standard Action, and the Flurry of Blows is a Full Round Action.

[Grick]

Roaming Shadow wrote:

A fighter who weilds to weapons, if for some reason he wants to attack with just his off hand weapon. He gets his attack bonus as normal (the huge attack penalty to off hand is only for TWF), but adds only half his strength modifier.

There is no handedness in Pathfinder. The only time you have an off-hand is when two-weapon fighting. You can carry a rapier and dagger, and make a single attack with either one, and there are no off-hand penalties.

[Davick]

From the ask James Jacobs Thread:

James Jacobs wrote:

Davick wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Davick wrote:

Hey James, I was wondering, as someone with seemingly strong views on how monks work, would you be willing to chime in on how the text about there being no such thing as an offhand unarmed strike for a monk works with TWF?

Flurry of Blows is how monks make offhand unarmed strikes.

That's what I told the guy!

But how does that interact with multiclassing where a monk wouldn't get the subsequent attacks? You either use the flurry or you're outta luck?

Multiclassing still adds to your base attack bonus, and base attack bonus is what determines your flurry of blows attacks. If your'e not high enough level as a monk to gain additional extra flurry attacks, that's just what you get for multiclassing is all.