Can I take 10 on both rolls when affected by a misfortune effect that forces me to roll twice and take the lower result?
(Of course, this assumes I'd be able to take 10 in the same situation without the misfortune)
Other way round: Let's say I am blessed with luck, rolling twice and taking the better result (as per the Bit of Luck Domain power). Do I have to actually roll both rolls (taking the better one), or can I declare to be taking 10 once, and roll the other time?
My take on it is that if you are able to take 10 at all, it should apply to both rolls, whether for good or bad luck. After all, one takes 10 on a check, not on a roll, and the whole purpose of taking 10 is to eliminate luck for a routine task you are routinely able to perform.
IMHO, no. Fortune/Misfortune affect die rolls, and taking 10/20 aren't die rolls.
I think you can take a 10, as taking a 10 replaces your normal roll.
The problem is that Misfortune is meant to be used in combat, where you are threatened and cannot take a 10. I would even go so far as to say if you have a Witch casting misfortune on you, you are in combat, and thus threatened and cannot take a 10.
Charender is mostly correct.
Usually, a target that's the recipient of a Misfortune hex will be in a situation where they are "in immediate danger or distracted," and cannot take 10 (see Core Rulebook pg 86). However, certain characters can take 10 regardless of circumstances (i.e., bards with Lore Master and rogues with Skill Mastery); for those checks, the Misfortune hex would not have an appreciable effect (each "roll" would be a 10).
Also, the GM will have to decide whether or not simply having a witch target a character with the Misfortune hex counts as "in immediate danger or distracted." A case could be made either way. It will mostly come down to how powerful the GM wants the hex to be. On a related point, the GM will also have to decide if the Misfortune hex will it have any effect on skills (i.e., Diplomacy, Perform, etc.) that take longer than a single round to accomplish. Thematically, causing a courtier to commit a faux pas when speaking to the king or a musician to hit a wrong note in the middle of a song is very appropriate; however, the GM may want to limit that sort of influence to actual curses.
In other words, if there is a threat (such as a negative consequence of failure) you cannot take 10. So, in cases where even if you roll a 1 on your check you succeed (and thus the "worst of two rolls" doesn't have a negative effect), you would be allowed to take 10.
If, on the other hand, there's no negative consequence of failure, you can take 10. Of course, in that event, taking 10 really doesn't matter.
So, really, the hex doesn't matter, because if there were a threat you wouldn't be able to take 10 anyways, and if there's no threat, the hex doesn't matter.
That's my 2 cents, anyways.
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Note, though, that with the Errata update to the Scar hex, a witch could be a mile away from someone, sipping a cup of tea and inflicting them with Misfortune. Not exactly an immediate danger situation.
My personal opinion? I wouldn't let someone under the influence of Misfortune to take 10 on any task until the hex expired. That's not RAW in any way, but it's what I'd do.
In other words, if there is a threat (such as a negative consequence of failure) you cannot take 10. So, in cases where even if you roll a 1 on your check you succeed (and thus the "worst of two rolls" doesn't have a negative effect), you would be allowed to take 10.
Umm... I can take 10, even if the consequences of failure would be negative. Rules-wise, I cannot take 10 if I am threatened or distracted (unless some specific rule says otherwise).
So, if balancing on a tightrope to entertain the crowd, I can easily take 10, even if I am doing it 60 feet in the air, over an acid bath.
What I cannot usually do is to take 20 if failure has negative consequences (IIRC, taking 20 is short for 'I take all results from 1 through 20, once).
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Just for the RAW:
Misfortune (Su): The witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to suffer grave misfortune for 1 round. Anytime the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result. A Will save negates this hex. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. This hex affects all rolls the target must make while it lasts. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Since it states in the spell that you "must roll twice and take the worse result" I would read that as a specific rule that overrides the standard rule for taking 10.
I agree that if you are under misfortune, you have to roll. I would let people who have the "always take 10" take their 10s though. Basically treat rolling while under misfortune as threatened, regardless of if you are in combat or otherwise distracted.
As for the luck bonus extra rolls/re-rolls, I'd let take 10s fly on those as long as you were in a situation that allows it. So you'd get one die to roll to see if you get a high result, and a safety net of take 10.
Skill Checks
When your character uses a skill, he isn't guaranteed success. In order to determine success, whenever you attempt to use a skill, you must make a skill check.
Each skill rank grants a +1 bonus on checks made using that skill. When you make a skill check, you roll 1d20 and then add your ranks and the appropriate ability score modifier to the result of this check. If the skill you're using is a class skill (and you have invested ranks into that skill), you gain a +3 bonus on the check. If you are not trained in the skill (and if the skill may be used untrained), you may still attempt the skill, but you use only the bonus (or penalty) provided by the associated ability score modifier to modify the check. Skills can be further modified by a wide variety of sources—by your race, by a class ability, by equipment, by spell effects or magic items, and so on. See Table: Skill Check Bonuses for a summary of skill check bonuses.
If the result of your skill check is equal to or greater than the difficulty class (or DC) of the task you are attempting to accomplish, you succeed. If it is less than the DC, you fail. Some tasks have varying levels of success and failure depending on how much your check is above or below the required DC. Some skill checks are opposed by the target's skill check. When making an opposed skill check, the attempt is successful if your check result exceeds the result of the target.
By the logic of "If it says you must roll, then you must roll", you can never take a 10 or a 20 on any skill check ever, because the base rules for skill checks say you must roll.
Taking a 10 or a 20 is a specific rule that overrides the normal rules for rolling. Unless there is something specific in misfortune that states you cannot take a 10, you can take a 10.
Personally I think players shouldn't be punished for taking 10. The hex says nothing about forcing them to roll, merely that if they would make a check they have to roll twice. Well you can choose not to roll a check and take 10 in situations where you're not immediately threatened. Merely being under the effects of a condition does not mean you are immediately threatened unless the condition expressly says so.
That being said, the PF rules do not explain exactly what constitutes as being threatened. In the 3.x rules, it described a scene where a climber is being shot at by goblin archers while he was climbing, which was a pretty good indication as to the level of distraction you'd need to not be able to take 10. However in Pathfinder it is more ambiguous (sadly).
I think players should be encouraged to take 10, as it both speeds up gameplay and allows them to to be happy with their choices. Having a 90% range of variability all the time for stuff your character can routinely do is kind of dumb, and even the designers have noted the reason for take 10 in books such as the Rules Compendium.
Personally I think if the target of the misfortune hex has the opportunity to rely solely on his or her skill by taking 10, it shouldn't come into effect. The moment they need a little luck to do it (IE - they roll) then the effect occurs as normal. As far as I can tell, this is also the RAW.
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Are people forgetting that the misfortune hex only lasts 1 round? That means that the check in question (where you want to take 10 but you're influenced by misfortune) is occurring within six seconds of having the hex placed on you.
In the "being shot at while climbing" scenario, I sure wouldn't let the player say "sure they were shooting on their turns, but they're not shooting right now, so I can take 10". If you're having attacks/spells/hexes/whatever thrown at you in the same round, that counts as being threatened.
If the hex lasted, say, 5 rounds and you killed the witch (the last enemy) during the first round, then there'd be a question. But if you're still under a misfortune hex, then you're still in combat, near as I can tell.
Are people forgetting that the misfortune hex only lasts 1 round? That means that the check in question (where you want to take 10 but you're influenced by misfortune) is occurring within six seconds of having the hex placed on you.
In the "being shot at while climbing" scenario, I sure wouldn't let the player say "sure they were shooting on their turns, but they're not shooting right now, so I can take 10". If you're having attacks/spells/hexes/whatever thrown at you in the same round, that counts as being threatened.
If the hex lasted, say, 5 rounds and you killed the witch (the last enemy) during the first round, then there'd be a question. But if you're still under a misfortune hex, then you're still in combat, near as I can tell.
There is no condition of "in combat". Initiative is rolled when tracking the order of actions becomes crucial (most commonly in combat), but even when Initiative is rolled no combat is required to take place. In fact, in 3E, it actually describes using the Delay action when meeting someone in an alleyway, whom you're uncertain is friend or foe, and you're waiting to see what happens before you act.
I do see your point however, and I think it would be fair to assume that you can't take 10 if the archers have shot at you within the round.
I didn't really say that "in combat" was a condition. I just used the phrase is all.
My apologies. I didn't explain very well. I just meant that there's no definition of in combat in the game rules, and that there are no clear abilities which are or are not combat abilities, other than they are useful in combat, but then so are many abilities people would consider non-combat abilities.
Ultimately, it's likely better to judge it based on circumstances, and ultimately I don't think that the misfortune hex is something that qualifies as openly threatening you, no more than being cursed means you're permanently in combat. It's not like the hex isn't strong enough already, as any check that means something critical likely isn't something they can take 10 on anyway (such as attacks and saves).