Snow Crash,
Well, the nice thing is that, apart from pulling cash and magic items out of kingdom building, there's no real noticeable effect of always making kingdom rolls and having massive amounts of BP. My players started getting bored with sloughing through kingdom turns, so I started doing it myself outside of game, asking what they wanted, and then sending out a month-by-month excerpt of what was built, how the kingdom grew, etc. Leaves the table for the fun gaming, so it's been working so far. And my players are kind enough not to even try to pull funds or items from the kingdom.
Now, for your particular points: You're the GM, and if word gets out that the kingdom's leaders are siphoning funds from the kingdom, it's gonna look bad. Think Grigori, but worse. Sure, they can make their kingdom's Stability or Loyalty roll, but this *is* a roleplaying game, and story should trump it. Don't smack them hard, but a smack may be in order. And speaking of smacks: if they're building up resources with items, toss some extra critters their way. If their wealth-by-level is above their level, send 'em baddies equal to what they should have going off wealth, not actual level. Try to challenge them and see how it goes.
If all else fails, you can sit 'em down and talk to them about how it's starting to break the system, and while you KNOW it's what their characters would do... (Any Good-aligned PCs? They shouldn't go in for that "rip off the common people" stuff!)
Lastly, on the Duke and his retinue: Hey, it's good to be da king! At the same time, baddies aren't going to hang around when they see a large force coming. They'll run and hide. Also, I'd suggest adding up all the levels to get the party's actual APL, then buff up the encounters according to that. 20 1st level warriors, plus mounts, is at least a CR 10 (I'd have to do the actual math). Add in the PCs and they're above what the mod should start at. So they roam around Varnhold. And in a few days, V sends out more than one of his little Soul Eaters... Two or three of them attacking while the party is camping for the night will devastate the lowbies, and the Duke will find them fleeing in the morning. They'd be happy to accompany him on a stag or boar hunt, but these creatures are WELL beyond the common soldier!
Just some thoughts. Try to balance fair play with curtailing of overbearing nobles. Kinda like a king's counselor, I guess... :)
There's three ways to deal with this: RP, metagame, or mechanical.
The RP and metagame methods are as ChrisO describes. Either their citizens get fed up in some way, or you talk to them about breaking the system.
For a mechanical solution, there are a number of house rules on this forum to patch various holes in the system that your players may be taking advantage of. Without knowing the specifics of how they got their stats so high I can't tell you what to try specifically, though. Can you break down where their numbers are coming from?
After a few trips where 1 or 2 (or none) of the retainiers returns, there should start to be jokes about the red-shirted ensigns that the Duke takes with him. Wives weeping, knowing they'll never see their husbands again, 10 year old boys attempting to assasinate the Duke because he took his father out and ran away and left him to die, and so on. And if you really want to make it nasty, after the first time that no retainers return, you could lower loyalty by 1 per retainer lost, or something like that. That would pull one score back down in a hurry.
I really like this all of this. I don't think it will be an issue with our group because the characters want to triumph over challenges, not walk all over anything, but I love the impact it has on the city as the ruler takes expendible people with him for jaunts. I'd say the first such trip where there retainers die would be a loss of 1-4 loyalty for what the citizens see as poor and mistaken judgement on the duke's part. After that, as it becomes obvious that it's not just an underestimation of danger but a flagrant use of good lives, the loyalty and/or unrest result would become very significant very fast.
I removed the original post. Please don't use language like that.
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Actually, those levels (econ, loyalty, etc) are kind of low. They'll get a lot higher as they go on. Don't worry about it.
However:
They roll a random magic item they want and they just take it???!!!???
They don't just take it...they remove appropriate BP from the treasury to buy it. knowing they can take the hit and cover it with their rolls.
500 gp a month is rich? No, it's not. It's not enough to even make a roll. For four players, that works out to 1 BP a month. Or a very small fraction of what they can get by adventuring.
True. problem is they dont go adventuring. Their kingdom needs building, even I agree with that, they need to build up their towns and kingdom size so they are putting aside adventuring and just sitting back and running their kingdoms for a couple of years. which accounts to 18000gp each or 90000gp if they wanted to pool it for a group item, for doing nothing. No risk involved. I could indeed throw in encounters and roleplaying opportunities that have occured due to some of their actions or kingdom events but that would just slow things down when they really need to be getting their kingdom size etc up.
Senior Software Developer
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I'll be more explicit: Do not use the word "rape" unless you are referring to sexual assault. I do not care what dictionary definitions you pull up. We will not bend on this. This is not open to discussion here.
Feel free to repost your original post without the other stuff.
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I missed the OP, so I don't know all the details. But I will say you might want to check out River Kingdoms by Jon Brazzer games. They put out a expanded book of the kingdom rules. It collects all the rules, expands them some and cleans them up some. They might help unless you just really disliked the whole system.
I'll be more explicit: Do not use the word "rape" unless you are referring to sexual assault. I do not care what dictionary definitions you pull up. We will not bend on this. This is not open to discussion here.
Feel free to repost your original post without the other stuff.
I'm not questioning the policy, nor trying to debate it, but I do want to point out that it seems a pretty arbitrary one. It's not something that I think most people would consider profanity, and none of the other posting rules at the bottom of the post page seem like they would cover it. I certainly had no idea it would be a problematic word until now. My recommendation would be to clarify that somewhere, whether it be in the FAQ or the message board policy or something.
500 gp a month is rich? No, it's not. It's not enough to even make a roll. For four players, that works out to 1 BP a month. Or a very small fraction of what they can get by adventuring.True. problem is they dont go adventuring. Their kingdom needs building, even I agree with that, they need to build up their towns and kingdom size so they are putting aside adventuring and just sitting back and running their kingdoms for a couple of years. which accounts to 18000gp each or 90000gp if they wanted to pool it for a group item, for doing nothing. No risk involved. I could indeed throw in encounters and roleplaying opportunities that have occured due to some of their actions or kingdom events but that would just slow things down when they really need to be getting their kingdom size etc up.
If they don't go adventuring at all, it's a self-limiting problem. If they don't adventure, they don't gain XP, they don't gain new hexes, and they don't have any idea what's outside their borders. Kingmaker is designed so things don't really happen if the PCs aren't doing anything, but in a situation like this, you can just have things start happening. A 7th level character with the wealth of a 20th level character is very powerful, but still can't hold a candle to a 14th level character with the wealth of a 14th level character. Skip the next adventure, have the BBEG of it make trouble, and start the one after that. I know there's a war in the 5th module, although I don't know the details of it. Move that up. Or add in one of the fey-based modules that gets reccomended frequently - Carnival of Tears or Realm of the Fellnight Queen. The Carnival would be a great way to kick them into gear - there's a carnival in town... and then things go horribly wrong.
That being said, 90000gp total over several in-game years is not that significant, even for 6th level characters. It sounds like your PCs are building a small but highly stable kingdom, which is really a good idea until someone large wants to expand over you and you can't field an army to fight them off. Maybe have Brevoy require them to supply X amount of troops, and then hit them with the maintenance fees for it. Alternatively, have them say that because the PCs haven't been clearing more land, they're sending in a new group to found another duchy in the empty space if nothing changes.
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OK here is the original post with the offensive word removed.
We are just finishing up rivers run red and I am having problems with the kingdom building.
1. My PCs have by no way abused the rules with reguards to the whole magic shop abuse etc. But they still seem to be getting bulk BP each turn and controlling those BP in order to build what they want never seems to be a problem. I hate to imagine how many BP the guys who are using the magic shop economy loophole are getting.
2. Kingdom DCs seem to mean nothing. All of the economy, loyalty rolls etc are now only failing on a 1. Economy is about +70 and DC is 50ish. They never need to worry about failing.
3. They have just worked out that with kingdom happiness at the level it is at they can each take a salary of 500gp from the kingdoms treasury and never have to worry about citizens unrest. They are always going to make the roll and their characters are going to get rich for doing very little.
4. Magic Item rolls. My PCs see a magic item they want. They just take it. providing it's not prohibitivly priced of course there is very little chance taking the item will have a negative impact from the public apart from of course roleplaying opportunities. Admitedly they do not absolutely abuse this opportunity but they are still stocking up on some nice moderate magic items without actually doing any adventuring to get it.
5. My player playing the duke cannot see any problem taking an entire retinue with him wherever he goes. Eg they just left for Varnhold and he wanted to take a squad of troops with him everywhere. The other players had to talk really hard to talk him out of it. But realistically they were metagaming with the whole thought of just that the encounters would not be geared to having 20 1st level fighters on hotrseback with them. Not to mention he then complained that this is exactly the sort of danger a duke would not put himself in... He would send out hirelings to do this investigating for him.
Any Ideas?
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My PCs have by no way abused the rules with regards to the whole magic shop abuse etc. But they still seem to be getting bulk BP each turn and controlling those BP in order to build what they want never seems to be a problem. I hate to imagine how many BP the guys who are using the magic shop economy loophole are getting.
What have they done to the Kingdom in order to get their BP Income so high?
Kingdom DCs seem to mean nothing. All of the economy, loyalty rolls etc are now only failing on a 1. Economy is about +70 and DC is 50ish. They never need to worry about failing.
Have they filled all of the positions? Are most of the positions filled with lots of NPCs? Or does one of the players have leadership as a feat (I really don't like that feat although it is appropriate for Kingmaker)? I guess without knowing the full story its hard to give some suggestions. My first thought is that if the PCs are finding it so easy, then an NPC should be able to find it just as easy. Perhaps there is a traitor in the mix? Or perhaps it might be time for a couple of Dopplegangers to get wind of how good things are for their "master". Some of the shenanigans from "Halls of Harsh Reflections" come to mind.
They have just worked out that with kingdom happiness at the level it is at they can each take a salary of 500gp from the kingdoms treasury and never have to worry about citizens unrest. They are always going to make the roll and their characters are going to get rich for doing very little.
That sounds like a tax to me. Do you have control of the Kingdom Character sheet or do they?
Magic Item rolls. My PCs see a magic item they want. They just take it. providing it's not prohibitively priced of course there is very little chance taking the item will have a negative impact from the public apart from of course role-playing opportunities. Admittedly they do not absolutely abuse this opportunity but they are still stocking up on some nice moderate magic items without actually doing any adventuring to get it.
Are you using the Jon Brazer rules? I thought that if a player takes a magic item from the "available magic items" that they create unrest equal to the BP cost of the item taken? Those rules state:
You can withdraw funds from the kingdom’s treasury, but doing so runs the risk of annoying the citizens. Each time you withdraw funds, the kingdom’s Unrest increases by 1. In addition, you must make a Loyalty check (DC = Control DC + number of BP being withdrawn); a failure causes your kingdom to gain Unrest equal to the total BP withdrawn. Each BP withdrawn in this manner converts into 2,000gp.
OK, so I was almost correct. So they seem to be able to pass their Loyalty check then right?
My player playing the duke cannot see any problem taking an entire retinue with him wherever he goes (e.g. they just left for Varnhold and he wanted to take a squad of troops with him everywhere). The other players had to talk really hard to talk him out of it. But realistically they were meta-gaming with the whole thought of just that the encounters would not be geared to having 20 1st level fighters on horseback with them. Not to mention he then complained that this is exactly the sort of danger a duke would not put himself in. He would send out hirelings to do this investigating for him.
Are the troops from the Leadership Feat? Are they loyal to the "King" just because they are being paid? Maybe a morale check? Failing that, there are always nasties out there to match that size party (i.e. 25 targets). Sure they may kill the Green Dragon, but that XP divided by 25, and the heroes could loose all of their NPCs. Now what would happen to the morale of the kingdom when that occurs?
Food for thought.
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5. My player playing the duke cannot see any problem taking an entire retinue with him wherever he goes. Eg they just left for Varnhold and he wanted to take a squad of troops with him everywhere. The other players had to talk really hard to talk him out of it. But realistically they were metagaming with the whole thought of just that the encounters would not be geared to having 20 1st level fighters on hotrseback with them. Not to mention he then complained that this is exactly the sort of danger a duke would not put himself in... He would send out hirelings to do this investigating for him.
Any Ideas?
My players were pretty funny about that. First adventuring after founding the kingdom the conversation went something like this:
Baron: Are we taking standard bearers, heralds, guards and trackers with us?
GM (me): Well, you're only a fledging kingdom and those people are needed to protect it whilst you are away.
Baron: So you are saying it is sensible to send the most important people in the kingdom, all of them, out into the wilderness where there are known dangers to look for a missing boy and tame some of the native beasts...on their own?!?!?
Councillor (helping me out): We need to lead by example.
Barons: So we have the same policy as the Starship Enterprise? A ship with hundreds of crew yet they beam down the Captain and and his Officers on to an unknown planet to face certain peril. Every. Single. Time?
Councillor: Yes. Yes we do.
<much laughter and shaking of heads>
Sorted. They did buy a bunch of trained dogs before heading out though.
As a member of a party whose leader is making a point of dropping 2 houses into a black market on every single city and every district of said city that we make (I think we're up to 4 now in the middle of book 3, with one having an extra district and two more being founded next turn? Our boss loves dropping cities, he played lots of Civilization as a kid and equates more cities with MORE POWER Ohoho.) I can confirm that it starts to get to an exponential growth rate. Our GM solved any money problems by just saying 'You can't withdraw BP as gold, and you have to buy magic items if you want them.'
So, our kingdom definitely has explosive and exponential BP growth, but he's prevented the PCs from really taking advantage of that explosive, exponential growth to turn it into mass amounts of GP. We're going to kick a great deal of butt come the mass combat section, but at this point all we are capable of funding is 'more buildings, more cities, and more growth.'
We don't get a red cent from our item economy stuff.
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OK Thanks for all the advice.
1. I am looking at removing the magic item economy altogether. and replacing it by letting the players trade extra BP generated by farms/mines away etc to neighbouring nations and travelling merchants. Effectively giving them the option of having negative consumption.
2. Also looking at implementing rules for no farms etc during winter and having them have to store excess grain and foodstuffs etc in warehouse. With a random event that food spoils etc or if a fire or flood occurs and happens to randomly destroy that building.
3. Completely removing the mechanics for withdrawing funds from the kindom, especially for the purchasing of magic items. But I might provide each of them with a small wage based upon which office they hold. If they wish to take magic items or funds for personal use it becomes a purely roleplaying excercise, with merchants getting very upset and business suffering if they continue with such options. Maybe magic stores or markets shutting down because they don't like the way business operates in this new fledgling kingdom. Or maybe a disgruntled previous owner hiring someone to come and retrieve the item in the middle of the night.
4. I like everyones options on bringing along retainers . Most of it I already had in mind anyway. eg most encounters running away from a large force. Spreading the XP over all people present not to mention retainers expecting a portion of the loot. Was just concerned as to how difficult this would make things considering a lot of encounters would eventually be skipped or need some major rearranging on my behalf. If he continues to try and bring them along he will definitely be copping a hit to his leadership if a bunch of his retainers die facing high CR monsters.
We have already had a big discussion regarding leadership feat which I am encouraging all the PCs to take. But I do not want large groups of PCs with their sidekicks romping all over the country. Instead I offered the option of sending their followers out on missions instead of themselves. Any XP earned by the followers instead goes to the PC and the follower just maintains his 2 levels lower than the PC. This way the bard baron can send his rogue manservant out to explore some hexes or look into those ruins outside of town in his stead. Sort of makes more sense. When they go to other kingdoms they can take them along at retainers etc who tend to stay back at the house but can be sent out on other missions while the main PCs are doing social interactions.