Fast Bombs + Explosive Missile, can they be used together?

[jorgenporgen]

Fast Bombs:

An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon. An alchemist must be at least 8th level before selecting this discovery.

Explosive Missile:

As a standard action, the alchemist can infuse a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet with the power of his bomb, load the ammunition, and shoot the ranged weapon. He must be proficient with the weapon in order to accomplish this. When the infused ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally and detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the target. If the explosive missile misses, it does not detonate. An alchemist must be at least 4th level before selecting this discovery.

One of my players will be playing an alchemist in our next campaign, and we were wondering if these two discoveries should stack (allowing 2+ explosive missiles being fired in one full-round action). RAW right now it looks like they won't, since Explosive Missile is it's own special standard action, not the "normal" Bomb standard action.

Any thoughts?

(For the sake of this discussion we assume that the alchemist has rapid reload/crossbow mastery/is using a bow or whatnot so that he reload the missile weapon as a free action)

[Drejk]

By RAW it looks likte it could not be used together, but if we consider that Explosive Missiles use the same "create and throw bomb" standard action as Bombs feature then yes, it could be used together.
My thought is, try combining them and check if it is game breaking or not. If the answer will be yes then make them separate actions and allow the player to switch the discovery and/or the feat to something else (so he won't be stuck with a feat that probably is of little use to him after separating Fast Bomb and Explosive Missile).

[Sarrion]

By raw, no you can't because the missile ability uses a standard action and fast bombs requires a full attack action to throw multiple bombs.

[Roaming Shadow]

By the way it's worded, no, the two cannot be combined. Fast Bombs doesn't actually reduce the time it takes to make bombs, or any other application of the bomb class feature, but rather gives the alchemist a special full round action involving bombs. Explosive Missle is a seperate standard action. While I can see how logically they can be combined, by the wording they cannot, due to the fact that Fast Bombs doesn't actually affect the time it takes to create a bomb, and so cannot "reduce" the standard action needed to use Explosive Missle.

On a thematic note, the ability to create bombs and infuse something with bomb energy are seperate discoveries and wouldn't interact as they are two different types of actions, creating and infusing. He knows how to create a bomb faster, but infusing doesn't become any faster because he knows a faster construction technique.

[Jamie Charlan]

Fun bit of Explosive Missile is that you infuse, load and fire all as a standard action, and the weapon/ammunition are otherwise unaffected.

That includes a heavy crossbow. That one bomb has a 120ft range increment, and while worse than crossbow mastery, its better than taking Rapid Reload as far as the Hxb is concerned. A critical bomb isn't all that great (horray for an extra 1d6+int) but still a healthy boost to a heavy crossbow, so long as you can hit with your attack.

Combine with True-Strike for a Sticky Tanglefoot Confusion bomb and start sniping at those dragons!

[Somnus the Bonemender]

Roaming Shadow wrote:

By the way it's worded, no, the two cannot be combined. Fast Bombs doesn't actually reduce the time it takes to make bombs, or any other application of the bomb class feature, but rather gives the alchemist a special full round action involving bombs. Explosive Missle is a seperate standard action. While I can see how logically they can be combined, by the wording they cannot, due to the fact that Fast Bombs doesn't actually affect the time it takes to create a bomb, and so cannot "reduce" the standard action needed to use Explosive Missle.

On a thematic note, the ability to create bombs and infuse something with bomb energy are seperate discoveries and wouldn't interact as they are two different types of actions, creating and infusing. He knows how to create a bomb faster, but infusing doesn't become any faster because he knows a faster construction technique.

While you're correct that two discoveries don't directly affect each other, in the case of altering a bomb's substance it isn't an action. Each one typically says "When you make a bomb, you can choose X." where X is the substance effect of the bomb. This doesn't require an action. So in essence, yes, you could use Poison Bomb + Fast Bombs and create three separate bombs that each create a Cloudkill after-effect. I'm not certain on the rules of overlapping persistent area spells, but you could even center them all on the same space. By the time it truly matters they'll be facing pretty nasty stuff to begin with. I don't know about you guys, but if I could unload a semi-auto bazooka at a Balor, I'd do it in a heartbeat. And then run like hell.

The issue with the topic at hand (Explosive Missle+Fast Bombs) is that they both do imply specific actions. Explosive Missles states that it's a standard action - as Drejk mentioned, however, creating and throwing a normal bomb is also a standard action, as is almost any single attack action. Fast Bombs simply states that, while normally creating and throwing a bomb is a special standard action, now it becomes a standard action on par with a normal attack. RAW doesn't say you can do it (in this case it's a lack of approval rather than a lack of denial), but I would tend to agree with the above posters. It's only going to matter at level 8+, and theoretically the only time he'll be able to 'shoot' more than two bombs is at 15th level, when he'll have three attacks. Try it out. If it's too powerful when in combination with feats (Rapid Shot/Multishot, etc), simply say bombs aren't standard ammunition and the feats don't apply when shooting bombs.

[Grick]

Somnus the Bonemender wrote:

Fast Bombs simply states that, while normally creating and throwing a bomb is a special standard action, now it becomes a standard action on par with a normal attack.

That's not what fast bombs says at all.

Fast bombs: "The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."

You can use bombs normally, or you can use Fast bombs with a full attack. You can't use Explosive Missile with a full attack just like you can't vital strike with a full attack.

Somnus the Bonemender wrote:

If it's too powerful when in combination with feats (Rapid Shot/Multishot, etc), simply say bombs aren't standard ammunition and the feats don't apply when shooting bombs.

Rapid shot is explicitly allowed (as is Haste and Two-Weapon Fighting), but Manyshot is restricted to bows.

[Verethragna]

Jamie Charlan wrote:

Fun bit of Explosive Missile is that you infuse, load and fire all as a standard action, and the weapon/ammunition are otherwise unaffected.

That includes a heavy crossbow. That one bomb has a 120ft range increment, and while worse than crossbow mastery, its better than taking Rapid Reload as far as the Hxb is concerned. A critical bomb isn't all that great (horray for an extra 1d6+int) but still a healthy boost to a heavy crossbow, so long as you can hit with your attack.

Combine with True-Strike for a Sticky Tanglefoot Confusion bomb and start sniping at those dragons!

Except that the Confusion Bomb and Tanglefoot Bomb effects cannot be combined. But Sticky + Tanglefoot could be fun. Confusion bomb is just nasty because there is no save on a direct hit. You smack them with it, and they are confused.

A little more fun that I have had has been with a firearm. Combine Extracts, Double Barreled Pistol with Distance, and Explosive Missile. Use combine Extracts to take a level three formula slot with Longshot + True Strike (Now as a standard action, you get a +20 to your next attack against your target's Touch AC within 50 ft. Explosive Missile lets you add your bomb to it.) At level 8, I was dealing 2d8+4d6+6, and attaching Blinding Bombs to everything. Sure, you can only do it once per turn, but there's just something to be said about being able to walk up to a dragon, blast it in the face, and laugh as it goes blind.

For added fun, take dispelling bombs discovery, then ready your action to counterspell that annoying mage. 2d8+4d6+6+dispel against touch AC within 50 ft. Don't forget that unless the bomb specifies otherwise, you still get to deal your splash damage. (10 DMG for this particular build.)

Before anyone argues about how at level 8 they can deal umpteenmillion damage as a free action just by thinking it, let me state this: I do things that are fun. Not game breaking.

Now that all of that has been said, to get back to the OP's question: No. Unfortunately (I argued everything I could think of), the best way to think of Explosive Missile is the Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow. You can only do it once per turn, but it's just handy to be able to take one standard action to deal weapon + bomb + splash DMG, + anything you add on to the damage.

Also, don't forget the bombs you can make are limited to your CL + INT mod, so each time you do Explosive Missile cuts into your bombs. Not a real big deal breaker, but something to keep in mind.

[Joesi]

Jamie Charlan wrote:

Fun bit of Explosive Missile is that you infuse, load and fire all as a standard action

...
That includes a heavy crossbow.

That's definitely a serious and clear violation of RAI I'd say. Interesting thing that I never thought of, but it's really ridiculous.