Yes i know i might be opening a can full of worms but i have to ask.
Let's say that i have the "having cover or concealment" part as well as the "not being observed" part covered (let's say i am 17th level ranger in one of my favorite terrains).
We also know that one attack breaks my stealth right?
Now the question is:
Can the above ranger make a full attack and roll for stealth (before each attack of course) in order to make his enemy loose his DEX bonus to AC to every attack (assuming said ranger beats the target's perception check every time)?
If the above question has already been answered please point me in the right direction.
Thank you.
Bummer.
But thank you.
I almost thought you were right, before I went directly to the stealth skill and read everything there, and found that line right at the end of the first paragraph. While Hide in Plain Sight is powerful, it's not good enough to make an enemy unaware of you while you're in the process of assualting him. Now, the enemy would be denied his dexterity from all of those attacks if said two weapon fighter were invisible through a Greater Invisibility effect.
Greater invisibility yes sure.
But i really thought that hide in plain sight could do that, that's what i get for not reading the stealth rules word for word.
Yes i know i might be opening a can full of worms but i have to ask.
Let's say that i have the "having cover or concealment" part as well as the "not being observed" part covered (let's say i am 17th level ranger in one of my favorite terrains).
We also know that one attack breaks my stealth right?
Now the question is:
Can the above ranger make a full attack and roll for stealth (before each attack of course) in order to make his enemy loose his DEX bonus to AC to every attack (assuming said ranger beats the target's perception check every time)?If the above question has already been answered please point me in the right direction.
Thank you.
To me is sounds like what you actually want is Feint, an aspect of Bluff. With the Feat Improved Feint you can feint as a move action.
Bluff: Feint
You can also use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be denied his Dexterity bonus to his AC against your next attack. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent’s base attack bonus + your opponent’s Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent’s Sense Motive bonus, if higher. For more information on feinting, see Combat.
Combat: Feint
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
When feinting against a non-humanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a creature lacking an Intelligence score, it's impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Feinting as a Move Action
With the Improved Feint feat, you can attempt a feint as a move action.
Feat: Improved Feint (Combat)
You are skilled at fooling your opponents in combat.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action.
Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action.
.
I'd also create a Feat called Swift Feint and request it of the GM:
Feat: Swift Feint (Combat)
You are quick at fooling your opponents in combat.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dex 15, Improved Feint, BAB +6
Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a swift action.
Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action.
@OberonViking
I am looking at a way to make full attacks and deny my opponent his DEX bonus.
So far the only way i have found is to use the UC's two weapon feint but the feinting has one problem, it allows me to target a denied DEX bonus only to my next attack not attacks.
Actually, there are new feats in Ultimate Comat designed for this. Improved Two Weapon Feint allows you to forgo your first primary hand melee attack to use a bluff check to feint. If successful, the opponent is denied his Dex bonus until the end of your turn. So the other 7 attacks of your 17th level ranger's full two weapon attack would be against flat footed AC.
The requirments are:
Dex 17, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Sure, it's kinda steep, but it is a very powerful ability, especially in the hands of a rogue. I think there's a typo in there though, because it seems odd that Improved Two Weapon Feint does not have Two Weapon Feint as a prerequisite.
It's most probably that this feat has two weapon feint as a prerequisite (which is missing now) but even if it isn't it requires you to burn one feat (that is combat expertise), have INT 13 and forgo your attack with the most chance to actually hit, thank you for bringing that to my notice.
it's pretty easy actually:
rogue talent: surprise attack
during surprise round ennemies are flat footed (implies denied dex and more) no matter what.
Hide, Full round attack, hope that everything is dead.
it's pretty easy actually:
rogue talent: surprise attack
during surprise round ennemies are flat footed (implies denied dex and more) no matter what.Hide, Full round attack, hope that everything is dead.
Yes that really isn't enough for what i want to do, a reliable way to target a denied DEX enemy.
@OberonViking
I am looking at a way to make full attacks and deny my opponent his DEX bonus.
So far the only way i have found is to use the UC's two weapon feint but the feinting has one problem, it allows me to target a denied DEX bonus only to my next attack not attacks.
Greater Feint then = denied Dex till the beginning of your next turn.
Remember that doing something this specific is going to burn a lot of feats.
Hide, Full round attack, hope that everything is dead.
- You can't full round attack during the surprise round. You're limited to a standard action.
@OberonViking
I am looking at a way to make full attacks and deny my opponent his DEX bonus.
So far the only way i have found is to use the UC's two weapon feint but the feinting has one problem, it allows me to target a denied DEX bonus only to my next attack not attacks.Greater Feint then = denied Dex till the beginning of your next turn.
Remember that doing something this specific is going to burn a lot of feats.
Ok i found this feat in the d20pfsrd but it doesn't say which book is it in, can you tell me where i can find it?
Also this feat doesn't allow me to make a feint quicker than a move action, so i still need the two weapon feint in order to make proper use of it, that leads to the following: If they errata the improved two weapon feint to include the two weapon feint in it's prereqs then we are talking about 5 feats (CE, TWF, ITWF, two weapon feint and the feat to make all of them work improved two weapon feint), now going through the greater feint route we also need 5 feats (CE, improved feint, greater feint, two weapon fighting and two weapon feint), see same results IF they errata if they don't then the improved two weapon feint route is better.
Greater Feint is in the Core Rulebook.
Feat: Swift Feint (Combat)
You are quick at fooling your opponents in combat.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dex 15, Improved Feint, BAB +6
Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a swift action.
Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action.
Convince your GM that this Feat I've invented isn't a gamebreaker. Point out the high Dex requirement, as you would have to be extremely agile to pull this off as a Swift Action.
Greater Feint is in the Core Rulebook.
Convince your GM that this Feat I've invented isn't a gamebreaker. Point out the high Dex requirement, as you would have to be extremely agile to pull this off as a Swift Action.
Feat: Swift Feint (Combat)
You are quick at fooling your opponents in combat.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dex 15, Improved Feint, BAB +6
Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a swift action.
Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action.
*facepalm*, of course it is on the only book i didn't check.
I don't plan on making such a character for any upcoming game it's just a thought exercise so i want to stay whithin Paizo published things.
Improved Two Weapon Feint lets you sneak attack your opponent with your full complement of attacks from Two Weapon Fighting, less the first one, which you sacrificed to make the feint.
@Roaming Shadow: Just for the sake of the exercise, how about this.
Feat: Swift Feint (Combat)
You are quick at fooling your opponents in combat.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dex 17, Improved Feint, Greater Feint, BAB +9
Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a swift action.
Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action.
Now a straight rogue can't use it till 12th Level, and they probably have all the other pre-reqs already met. Or a multiclass rogue isn't getting the full 6d6 sneak attack.
For use at this level, the rogue is going to need to have maxed out their Bluff, probably with a Skill Focus too.
Or perhaps Lightning Stance needs to be a pre-req?
Yes that really isn't enough for what i want to do, a reliable way to target a denied DEX enemy.it's pretty easy actually:
rogue talent: surprise attack
during surprise round ennemies are flat footed (implies denied dex and more) no matter what.Hide, Full round attack, hope that everything is dead.
Shatter Defenses? Also out of CRB.
Lightning Stance doesn't make sense as a prerequisite, as that's about being so fast and nimble you're difficult to hit; you're a constantly moving target. The point is, giving the rogue a rather easy, zero resource using, virtually non-action method of getting sneak attack every round just seems a little too powerful. And it only gets more powerful as they get thier itterative attacks. Any rogue who's using feint on a regular basis is going to have a high bluff for the purpose of using feint, and it's not that hard to specialize in a specific skill.P.S. If you have to preface your suggestion with "convince your DM it's not overpowered", 10 to 1 it is overpowered.
Yeah, I reckon you're right.
it's pretty easy actually:
rogue talent: surprise attack
during surprise round ennemies are flat footed (implies denied dex and more) no matter what.Hide, Full round attack, hope that everything is dead.
That doesn't work the way you want it to.
You only get a single standard action in a surprise round, so you can't full attack in a surprise round. (There are exceptions to this, but they're few and far between.)
Shatter Defenses? Also out of CRB.Yes that really isn't enough for what i want to do, a reliable way to target a denied DEX enemy.it's pretty easy actually:
rogue talent: surprise attack
during surprise round ennemies are flat footed (implies denied dex and more) no matter what.Hide, Full round attack, hope that everything is dead.
Yes i am familliar with the shatter defenses+cornugon smash route, i was just hoping to find another route.
Yes i am familliar with the shatter defenses+cornugon smash route, i was just hoping to find another route.Shatter Defenses? Also out of CRB.Yes that really isn't enough for what i want to do, a reliable way to target a denied DEX enemy.it's pretty easy actually:
rogue talent: surprise attack
during surprise round ennemies are flat footed (implies denied dex and more) no matter what.Hide, Full round attack, hope that everything is dead.
Alternatively, SD + Rake archetype for rogues. The Shaken condition becomes quite self-sustaining, then.
@Serisan
Yes but the Rake archetype + shatter defenses route requires to do sneak attack damage in the first place, of course the Scout archetype + Rake archetype + shatter defenses route might look better since the scout archetype pretty much guarantes a sneak attack damage in the first attack and, as you have said, the shaken condition becomes self-sustaining after that.