Hi there,
in this thread the OP mentions a bow that creates its own ammunition. I have wondered about an item like that for some time, so I would like to post my thoughts on how to create and price an item like that. Input would be much appreciated. Also feel free to post your own items :-)
My thoughts so far are to have a wondrous item enchantment on the bow based on minor creation and abundant ammunition (from Ultimate Combat). Using continous enchantments that would be kind of pricey, though:
abundant ammunition: 1st level wizard spell, minimum caster level 1, minutes duration -> 1*1*2*2000=4000gp, seems OK.
minor creation: 4th level wizard spell, minimum caster level of 7, hours duration -> 4*7*2000gp=56000gp, really pricey. Also, the arrows would be consumed and only exist while on the bow and until they hit or miss, so the hours duration would be kind of moot :-/
What I think would be more appropriate would be to look at the benefit you gain from such a bow: you do not need to purchase arrows and you do not need to knock them. The maximum number of arrows you can shoot from a bow with all feats is 7 arrows per round I believe, 10 rounds per minute, 1440 minutes per day -> 100800 arrows per day. 20 arrows cost 1 gp, so it is 100800/20=5040 gp you save per day. The added benefit of the bow would be that you have them available every day - that is what the abundant ammunition spell should cover.
So the market price for this kind of bow would be 5040+4000=9040gp plus base cost for the bow. It can only create arrows (no other objects) which cannot be sold. Magic properties of the bow are bestowed upon the ammunition as normal.
What do you think?
I don't think you need the minor creation. The abundant ammo spell includes the creation of the ammo. I'd just charge 4000gp and be done with it.
Honestly, at 4000gp, it's not going to show up until about 8th or 9th level, and at that point, who cares about keeping track of normal arrows beyond 'do you have your efficient quiver topped off'. An Efficient Quiver is 1800, less than half the price of the enchantment, and works for every bow you pick up, not just this one bow. It also holds your bows! :)
do you really want an arrow factory?
if you go for the "energy bow" out of the old D&D cartoons, here is my houserule:
brilliant energy ranged weapon:
you can shoot arrows made out of energy, those act like normal arrows with the brilliant energy enchantment, the bow can be further enhanced and will transmit enchantment onto energy arrows.
I believe it is balanced, because ammo for guns cost a lot of money, but you don't benefit as much from attacking touch AC (as you already have it for the first 30 feet).
@Richard Leonhart:
Well, I want ordinary arrows, not some kind of energy arrows. And I would like to know how to do it according to the normal rules, no houserules :-) Also, brilliant energy weapons have significant disadvantages such as the inability to harm undead, so it is not my enchantment of choice. And it's a particularly costly one at that :-P
@mdt:
An efficient quiver still requires you to keep track of the arrows, have it with you etc. I would like the bow to produce those kinds of arrows. Also, abundant ammunition always requires you to already provide ammunition, so it would not work if you had none anymore - which should be possible with the bow as I imagine it.
@all:
I also thought about following the glove of endless javelins item example in the magic item compendium and have the bow produce +1 force arrows. But in such a case I believe SR should apply to it and enchantments like shocking etc. should not be allowed anymore. Plus it's not as versatile and cool as ordinary arrows :-P
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If you actually saw the rules that were made by WotC for Hank's Energy Bow it was pretty freaking insane for the 22k that it cost. Came in the boxed set for the D&D cartoon from a few years back.
It shot 2d6 force bolts while keeping the ability to accept regular or special arrows and had an inherent ranged version of power attack. It was pretty wicked.
If you actually saw the rules that were made by WotC for Hank's Energy Bow it was pretty freaking insane for the 22k that it cost. Came in the boxed set for the D&D cartoon from a few years back.
It shot 2d6 force bolts while keeping the ability to accept regular or special arrows and had an inherent ranged version of power attack. It was pretty wicked.
Wow, that sounds cool :-D I would like an item like that, especially if it's only 22k. Just wonder what my DM would say ;-)
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abundant ammunition: 1st level wizard spell, minimum caster level 1, minutes duration -> 1*1*2*2000=4000gp, seems OK.
This should be fine. Arrows are cheap, and you can buy durable ones that don't break (from Elves of Golarion) pretty cheap as well. (This just saves you from having to walk over and retrieve them.)
Back in the day, I used a cantrip from Monte Cook's Book of Eldritch Might called Devlin's Barb which created a single piece of ammunition that lasted until the end of the next round, for this sort of effect. Backwards-compatibility and all that might mean that you can go for that option as well.
I just saw that someone moved it from the rules forum to the homebrew forum. Just to be clear: I am not looking for house rules, I am asking for how to build a bow as stated in the beginning according to pathfinder rules :-)
Can I somehow move it back or see who moved it? I am not that familiar with the forum options...
Hi there,
in this thread the OP mentions a bow that creates its own ammunition. I have wondered about an item like that for some time, so I would like to post my thoughts on how to create and price an item like that. Input would be much appreciated. Also feel free to post your own items :-)
My thoughts so far are to have a wondrous item enchantment on the bow based on minor creation and abundant ammunition (from Ultimate Combat). Using continous enchantments that would be kind of pricey, though:
abundant ammunition: 1st level wizard spell, minimum caster level 1, minutes duration -> 1*1*2*2000=4000gp, seems OK.
minor creation: 4th level wizard spell, minimum caster level of 7, hours duration -> 4*7*2000gp=56000gp, really pricey. Also, the arrows would be consumed and only exist while on the bow and until they hit or miss, so the hours duration would be kind of moot :-/
What I think would be more appropriate would be to look at the benefit you gain from such a bow: you do not need to purchase arrows and you do not need to knock them. The maximum number of arrows you can shoot from a bow with all feats is 7 arrows per round I believe, 10 rounds per minute, 1440 minutes per day -> 100800 arrows per day. 20 arrows cost 1 gp, so it is 100800/20=5040 gp you save per day. The added benefit of the bow would be that you have them available every day - that is what the abundant ammunition spell should cover.
So the market price for this kind of bow would be 5040+4000=9040gp plus base cost for the bow. It can only create arrows (no other objects) which cannot be sold. Magic properties of the bow are bestowed upon the ammunition as normal.
What do you think?
Man, you have barely scratched the surface of some of the cool items.
So have i.A crossbow that can use the magic of a potion by allowing you to pour the potion into a special compartment. The properties of the potion are transfered to the arrows loaded and fired.
A hand crossbow that was created by a half demon and is only usable by evil creatures. This crossbow creates it's own bolts which form from a sickly green mist that rises into firing position.Don't know what it does, just had that concept.
Arrows that spin at a high rate when released. These arrows puncture through multiple enemies in a straight line.
A funny looking Robin Hood hat that when the feather is plucked from the top, you can stretch it into an arrow and fire it, or you can use it to gain a forgery bonus when signing something, or you can use it to produce something similar to the effects of Marvelous Pigments.
Armor that deflects an attack similat to the way a flowing monk would.
Training armor for new recruits that the person wears and it effectively has the animated feature on it to give the trainee bonus fighter levels as it guides the person through motions and movements.
Meh, most of these will be ruled as houserule items.
Just stating.
Maybe these have already been thought up, maybe not.
Ok OP,
So, pricing these magic items is a science. You say the efficient quiver isn't as good as what you want. However, you are vastly overpricing the ability, which was what my original point was.
You want it to be 9040.
Let's see what I would do instead of paying 9040.
I would buy an efficient quiver (1800gp).
I would buy a bag of holding Type I (2500gp).
I would buy 86 bundles of 20 arrows, and wrap the tips with scraps of cloth to keep them from cutting the inside of the bag of holding. This would cost me 86gp.
So, for 4386 (less than half of what you are asking), I would have 1,720 arrows that I carry around on my person with little or no weight penalty. If I ever use more than 60 arrows in a single fight, I will be in a long ongoing seige and the city will supply me with as many arrows as I need even if they have to strip down every building in the city to get the wood to do so.
Realistically, I would not see any combat using more than 60 arrows, even if I'm firing them at maximum rate. Let's assume though that I use 60 arrows per fight. For me to make a profit off buying your modified bow rather than simply buying a bag of holding, efficient quiver, and arrows I would need to buy an additional (9040-4386) 4654 gp worth of arrows (actually, 4655 for the bow to be cheaper). That's 93,080 arrows I'd have to shoot before I made even a single gold profit off your bow.
I submit that having to fire 94,800 arrows before the item becomes worth it makes it rather worthless, as I will never fire 94,800 arrows over the course of 1st to 20th. That means at 60 arrows per fight, I'd need to fight 1,580 fights. And I seriously doubt I'd use 60 arrows per fight. :)
This is why I suggested that simply using the spell cost itself rather nicely aligns it with it's value at twice the cost of an efficient quiver, yet cheaper than the quiver/bag/arrows combo.
If it really bothers you about the 'must have an arrow' of the spell (which, by the way, a magic item may use the spell but doesn't have to exactly duplicate it, see any wondrous item), then simply require that a single arrow be mounted on the curve of the bow as a focus for the spell.
Thank you all for your input! Seems that somewhere between 4000gp (Thanks for the reasoning mdt!) and a +1 enhancement bonus cost (thanks for the cool write-up, pobbes!) is the acceptable price.
I think with your input I can reason with my DM to accept that, I kind of want this item myself now. Or maybe as a crossbow ... Hmm...
I seriously doubt he would let me have Hank's bow, though ;-(
Thank you all for your input! Seems that somewhere between 4000gp (Thanks for the reasoning mdt!) and a +1 enhancement bonus cost (thanks for the cool write-up, pobbes!) is the acceptable price.
I think with your input I can reason with my DM to accept that, I kind of want this item myself now. Or maybe as a crossbow ... Hmm...
I seriously doubt he would let me have Hank's bow, though ;-(
So, i had an interesting thought last night.
Abundant arrows is a 1st level spell and can be cast by a 1st level wizard to enchant an item, so here goes.
Under the estimaed gold table link here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#Table-Estimating-Magic-Item-Gold-Piece- Values
A use activated or continuous item costs Spell level(1)*caster level(1)*2000 gp.
So it would cost 2000 gold to have a quiver that has unlimited ammo.
Taking that a step further.
Have a tiny quiver made with this enchantment that holds say 5 arrows and permanently enchant that quiver to make flaming arrows.
Make another one that does shock etc.
Now bind the multiple quivers together and you now have a continuously growable and upgradable quiver that is only limited by the ammount of gold you spend into it.
The other mothod is to permanently enchant that quiver and either use a wand to change the enchants on the quiver as you go, or cast your weapon enhancing spell on the quiver yourself.
No matter how you look at it, you can have a grab bag of arrows with this method.
As a matter of fact, it'd be pretty cool if one archer can judge the wealth of another archer based purely on the ammount of tiny enchanted quivers.
Status symbol anyone?
Abundant arrows is a 1st level spell and can be cast by a 1st level wizard to enchant an item...
Where can one find the description for this spell? I cannot find it anywhere in my books.
Ultimate combat.
Hope this is ok.Abundant Ammunition
School conjuration (summoning); Level bard 1, cleric 1,
ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a single piece of ammunition)
Target one container touched
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that
contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including
masterwork ammunition or shuriken), at the start of each
round this spell replaces any ammunition taken from the
container the round before. The ammunition taken from the
container the round before vanishes. If, after casting this spell,
you cast a spell that enhances projectiles, such as align weapon
or greater magic weapon, on the same container, all projectiles
this spell conjures are affected by that spell
Excellent, thank you!
I haven't picked up my UC yet... Looks like I might need to get off my butt and get it.
There are a ton of great spells and archetypes in Ultimate Combat.
Very much worth the buy.
Abundant arrows is a 1st level spell and can be cast by a 1st level wizard to enchant an item, so here goes.Under the estimaed gold table link here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#Table-Estimating-Magic-Item-Gold-Piece- Values
A use activated or continuous item costs Spell level(1)*caster level(1)*2000 gp.
So it would cost 2000 gold to have a quiver that has unlimited ammo.
I believe this would end up being 4,000gp. The reason I say this is the #2 footnote on the chart.
2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
4000gp is also what others convinced me should be an acceptable price for this kind of item. Hm, once I get to play an archer/crossbowman again I'll get that :-)
Since the duration on Abundant Arrows is 1 minute/level, then the 2,000gp price tag would turn out to be 4,000gp.
Even at 4,000gp, this is still a great item that I am going to have made for my archer.
Abundant arrows is a 1st level spell and can be cast by a 1st level wizard to enchant an item, so here goes.Under the estimaed gold table link here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#Table-Estimating-Magic-Item-Gold-Piece- Values
A use activated or continuous item costs Spell level(1)*caster level(1)*2000 gp.
So it would cost 2000 gold to have a quiver that has unlimited ammo.
I believe this would end up being 4,000gp. The reason I say this is the #2 footnote on the chart.
2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
Since the duration on Abundant Arrows is 1 minute/level, then the 2,000gp price tag would turn out to be 4,000gp.
Even at 4,000gp, this is still a great item that I am going to have made for my archer.
I definately missed that one, great catch.
I definately missed that one, great catch.
Abundant arrows is a 1st level spell and can be cast by a 1st level wizard to enchant an item, so here goes.Under the estimaed gold table link here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#Table-Estimating-Magic-Item-Gold-Piece- Values
A use activated or continuous item costs Spell level(1)*caster level(1)*2000 gp.
So it would cost 2000 gold to have a quiver that has unlimited ammo.
I believe this would end up being 4,000gp. The reason I say this is the #2 footnote on the chart.
2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
Since the duration on Abundant Arrows is 1 minute/level, then the 2,000gp price tag would turn out to be 4,000gp.
Even at 4,000gp, this is still a great item that I am going to have made for my archer.
Argh, somehow my own typed text got lost - did not want to quote unnecessarily, but just state that I have been convinced of the 4000gp price tag :-)
This is Hank's Energy Bow, based on the 80s D&D cartoon.
It's a +2 composite longbow that grants the wielder's strength bonus to damage, much like a user-tailored mightly bow. It creates and fires force arrows that deal 2d6 points of force damage a piece. Here's a little catch though: even if they're made of force, they don't grant you a ranged touch attack, just a regular ranged attack. It can also fire regular arrows, but they deal their regular damage.
Furthermore, you could make use of power shots, which are essentially using Power Attack with the bow.
For 22,000 gp, it's good, but like I say, even though the arrows are force effects they still require regular ranged attacks. They do hit incorporeal creatures though.