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The Game: Faerun setting, Underdark. The party is a group of Noble Drow who were born with a common empathy (partly to reduce infighting). The GM says there will be alot of intrigue and backstabbing among Drow nobility, and plenty of dungeon crawling as well.
This, to me, screamed "rogue".
We're also allowed 2 Traits.
So I figured I'd take a crack at making my first Pathfinder character, a Drow Noble Rogue:
25-Point buy
Str 14 (costs 5; 5 total)
Dex 14 (c5;10t) -> racial = 18
Con 14 (c5;15t) -> racial = 12
Int 14 (c5;20t) -> racial = 16
Wis 13 (c3;23t) -> racial = 15
Cha 12 (c2;25t) -> racial = 14
Traits
Canter (+5 Bluff or Sense Motive regarding hidden messages)
Nonchalant Thuggery (+4 Bluff to seem non-threatening)
Build
- 01: F=Improved Initiative. Taking the Spy option of "Skilled Liar" instead of the usual trap finding.
- 02: RT=Canny Observer
- 03: F=Skill Focus - Bluff. When I disarm someone with lies (before murdering them), I want to be sure it works. The other big thing about Bluff is the ability to distract-to-hide.
- 04: RT=Bleeding Strike. The hit & run option is more viable when the victim continued to suffer while you run & hide. The idea is to deliver a bleeding SA, and then just avoid getting hit while they bleed out. Stat=Con (13)
- 05: F=Combat Reflexes.
- 06: RT=Minor Magic - Ghost Sound. Combined with stealth, this can throw ppl off my trail. Ghost sound actually has plenty of uses.
- 07: F=Improved Unarmed Strike. "I throw down my weapons and surrender! ... not" *thwack*
- 08: RT=Offensive Defense. In the case where I can (or am forced to) remain in combat, this gives me a defensive edge. I'm thinking of using this for every SA after delivering a bleeder. Stat=Con (14)
- 09: F=Stunning Fist. Using this with an AoO means that I can SA on my next turn. That's kind of the plan.
- 10: RT=Skill Mastery. Obvious choices are Bluff, Stealth and Perception, but the full list is [Bluff, Acrobatics, Stealth, Disable Device, Perception, Sleight of Hand]
- 11: F=Dodge. It's a requirement... sigh. At least it kind of synergizes with Offensive Defense... sorta.
- 12: RT=Opportunist. Now, when I flank, I can also stun, and/or deliver bleeding or boost my AC against the foe, out of turn. Stat=Wis (16)
- 13: F=Mobility. A semi-pointless choice, but again it's a requirement.
- 14: RT=Trap Spotter. I know, I know ... it's a bit late for this. But my theme comes first!
- 15: F=Sidestep. Being able to 5' step out of turn is, in my mind, an underestimated tactical ability. Out of threat from others, threaten an additional foe, step into or out of concealment/cover, achieving flank out of turn, etc.
- 16: RT=Finesse Rogue. Recovers 2 of the 4 BAB that I'm behind in. Stat=Cha(15)
- 17: F=Combat Patrol. Mixed with high stealth, SA and Combat Reflexes, this seems crazy powerful to me. Delivering a melee AoO+SA from a hidden place 15-20' away is like a violent dream come true.
- 18: RT=Major Magic - Silent Image. Silent Image can create concealment, draw a picture to show recon results... it's a very flexible ability.
- 19: F=Dastardly Finish. Combined with Stunning Fist and Combat Patrol, this makes me a pretty good predator against low-Fort victims; AoO stun, then CDG next round.
- 20: RT=Slippery Mind ... okay, this is just because I'm half out of ideas.
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First thing that stands out is your lack of focus on ability scores. Next is you think that feint is effective in combat. Bluff can not be used to distract some one so you can stealth. Bleeding Strike, Minor Magic, Major Magic, are wasted rogue talents. There are much better rogue talents that you could take. Skill focus early on is a wast of a feat. Stunning Fist, Dodge, Sidestep, Combat Patrol, Dastardly Finish are all wasted feats. You realy need to take Finesse Rogue or Weapon Finesse at level 1 or 2. Using feats or rogue talents for skill incresses is a wast. With 8 + Int Mod. you will have more then enough skill points to handle every thing you want to do. This is where most people have problems. Not knowing that you might not start out the best with some skills. After a few levels there is no way for most characters to keap all there skills caped out. This is where you should just suck it up at lower levels and shine at later levels. Or you wast feats at lower level and suck it up at higher level becous of bad feat choices at low level.
Stats
Str 12
Dex 17 + 4 = 23 ( all incresses here)
Con 14 - 2 = 12
Int 14 + 2 = 16
Wis 10 + 2 = 12
Cha 10 + 2 = 12
Skills: Maxed out
Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Linguistics, Perception, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device.
Feats & Rogue Talents.
1: Weapon Finesse
2 RT: Swift Poison
3: Two Weapon Fighting
4 RT: Weapon Training Short Sword
5: Combat Expertise
6 RT: Fast Stealth
7: Gang Up
8 RT: Powerfull Sneak
9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 ART: Deadly Sneak
11: Improved Critical Short Sword
12 ART: Improved Evasion
13: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
14 ART: Deadly Cocktail
15: Critical Focus
16 ART: Opportunist
17: Bleeding Critical
18 ART: Hunter's Surprise
19: Crippling Critical
20 ART: Another Day
That was quick!
8 RT: Powerfull Sneak
10 ART: Deadly Sneak
I just spent the last 20 minutes whipping up a die-rolling spreadsheet, comparing SA versus Powerful Sneak SA versus Deadly Sneak SA...
2 Rogue traits for what amounts to an average of +5 damage on SA?
With Bleeding Attack, you get a +10 DoT; far better.
I know you have both on there, but I hit F9 on my spreadsheet (to re-roll) and the difference between Deadly Sneak and regular SA, at level 20, bounces around from 4 to 8 most of the time. Would there be a better use for a RT and ART?
Next is you think that feint is effective in combat.Feinting is more of a last resort. Notice I didn't bother with Improved Feint, because of two reasons: 1, I have to take the nerfed Combat Expertise (blech), and 2, it's only useful if you're already in combat. Far better to Bluff to distract, then hide, and SA next round. This causes my low-HP rogue to avoid getting hit for a round, against a bleeding victim. Speaking of bluffing to hide...
Bluff can not be used to distract some one so you can stealth.
You realy need to take Finesse Rogue or Weapon Finesse at level 1 or 2.
This is something I am inclined to agree on. That +2 to hit it a big thing in the early game...
Using feats or rogue talents for skill incresses is a wast. With 8 + Int Mod. you will have more then enough skill points to handle every thing you want to do.
I know what you're saying here, and it makes sense. But I'm not trying to meet par, here, I'm trying to get an astronomical Bluff. In an RP-heavy game like this, having massive Bluff checks is useful both in combat and in RP. My ranks, traits and feat give me a bluff like this at level 4:
+17 to deliver a hidden message (such as coordinating a surprise attack during what seems like small-talk)
+16 to seem non-threatening... which means performing an SA out of nowhere during RP.
+14 to lie, such as lying that I'm surrendering, or that they started it.
+12 for all other uses, such as distracting to hide, or feinting.
That's level 4.
By level 20, the base will look like...
+42 to lie.
+37 to deliver a hidden message.
+36 to seem non-threatening.
+32 for all other uses, such as distracting to hide, or feinting.
This is without any gear (such as a circlet of persuasion) or buffs.
One common tactic will look like this:
Round 0: Get a surprise round, via stealth or RP+Bluff. SA (w/ bleeding)
Round 1: Win initiative (thanks to high dex and Improved Init) and SA again (w/ Offensive Defense). They attack back but I have a boosted AC.
Round 2+: Bluff to distract and move+stealth. Any SA after this uses Offensive Defense.
Original Build: When they come looking for me, use Combat Patrol, and SA as an AoO. If they're not a high-Fort foe, use Stunning Fist with the SA, AND, if high enough level, CDG on my next turn, otherwise Repeat.
This is, of course, one tactic of many. Also, very adjustable with maxed UMD, and more options appear when working with team-mates.
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With out Skill Focus you are 6 points lower dose that realy change your end game bluff? No.
With a - 2 to your Cha your 1 point lower on your Bluff dose this change your end game bluff? No.
You can make a item with + bluff on it. Far cheaper then a feat, and make your bluff much higher. +10 bluff ring is 10,000gp. I replaced your feat and ability points with a item that you can get by level 10. You can even get a +5 for 2,500GP. To fill in untill you get enough coin for +10.
Deadly Sneak is what your looking for. It changes your bell curve on the Sneak attack dice. With 10D6 Sneak Attack.
10D6 Low 10 High 60 Avg. 35
10D6 W/ Powerful Sneak Low 20 High 60 Avg. 37
10D6 W/ Deadly Sneak Low 30 High 60 Avg. 40
What Deadly Sneak Dose is remove the lower half of the damage you can do and incresses your min damage. It dose not effect the high end of the damage but removes the low end.
Very few fights will ever be won in the supprise round. Bleeding even 10 points of bleed is usless one potion stops it or even a easy heal check, Or magic item. At higher level you need to be ready for the fact heavy fort is your bigest problem you will need to over come. With your build useing sneak attack as your damage. Sneak Attack ( Light Fort 25% Med Fort 50% Heavy Fort 75% of nagation.) Any one that knows the game will uses heavy fort ASAP.
This is why I normaly do not make dex base Rogues.
Just saying I have made a lot of failed rogues in my time. Then I learned where I went wrong. You need to think of making a light fighter not a Rogue. The Rogue class can do every thing you want it to with out focus. The Rogue class can not function in combat with out focus. Unlike most classes Rogues that focus on out of combat abilitys. Have a very tough time in combat. They are the only class with this problem. Other classes have ways around the low BAB. Other classes can do things to incress there to hit bonus. The rogue dose not have this ability. So if your focus on out of combat abilitys you will be very good at them but you will suffer in combat. The powerful sneak and deadly sneak remove your bonus when flanking, but if you need the +2 flanking bonus to hit you made the rogue wrong. Even then rogues that focus on sneak attack as there primary damage face a larger problem as they level up and find out how cheap heavy fort is past level 13. This is where you start finding out how weak SA and Critical focus characters can be. If you have a DM like me or the group I play in over 50% of the encounters have heavy fort to remove crit effects.
I stand corrected
With out Skill Focus you are 6 points lower dose that realy change your end game bluff? No.Actually, yes. +6 all the time, and stacking with everything else, changes endgame bluff significantly. Without the feat, my Bluff is +26, which is defeatable by many high CR creatures I could be messing with. +32, not as much. In fact, in the endgame, things which should "challenge" the PCs are effectively things which give 50% or 25% chances on die rolls or contested die rolls. Having +6 beyond the expected standard of my CR makes those die rolls weight very heavily in my favor.
+10 bluff ring is 10,000gp. I replaced your feat and ability points with a item that you can get by level 10. You can even get a +5 for 2,500GP. To fill in untill you get enough coin for +10.
Actually, you just added to my feat, not replaced it. Jacking up my bonuses by another 10 will pretty much seal the deal on an unstoppable Bluff. To me, that's win, and that's also a good suggestion; thanks.
Very few fights will ever be won in the supprise round. Bleeding even 10 points of bleed is usless one potion stops it or even a easy heal check, Or magic item.
So at level 20, this feat does +10 damage with one SA/round (bleeding doesn't stack), aaand burns up enemy actions? Now it's WAY better than Deadly Sneak, which only gives +5 damage per SA, and -2 to hit.
Actually, I'm being a bit facetious; I have always seen the secret weapon of Bleeding Strike: it forces an enemy to choose between taking 10 more damage, or wasting valuable combat time getting healed.
Claiming that Bleed damage is useless, then claiming that 5 points of SA damage at level 20 is significant... It's kind of like claiming that relying on the +2 from flank (or not being seen) is fail, yet taking Weapon Focus is a good choice, and that low BAB cripples the the Rogue.
Anyhow, as for the damage itself, the extra damage from Bleeding is equal to two Deadly Sneaks, and with no hit penalty, and no need for a stuck-in-place-for-retaliation full attack. If I wanted to make a full attack with multiple sneaks, one would bleed em, and the next would give me +10 dodge bonus to AC (offensive defense).
If you have a DM like me or the group I play in over 50% of the encounters have heavy fort to remove crit effects.
That's exactly not the kind of DM I have; I frown upon DMs giving all their NPCs the budget and metagame foresight to arbitrarily counter PC abilities (though reoccurring villans are all about that, and get to know the PCs, so they have all the reason in the world). Heck, this game won't even be a combat game. As I've said, this will be RP heavy, with a good dose of dungeon crawling. If this were a combat game, I wouldn't be making a Rogue in the first place... I'd go with a spellcasting class or barbarian.
Okay, just thought I'd share my updated build.
Calagnar, despite our differences, I'll admit that you helped me realize what my priorities are. As such, your input was partially taken in making the build thus:
- 01: F= Improved Initiative
- 02: RT= Finesse Rogue
- 03: F= Skill Focus - Bluff
- 04: RT= Bleeding Strike
- 05: F= Combat Reflexes
- 06: RT= Trap Spotter
- 07: F= Improved Unarmed Strike
- 08: RT= Offensive Defense
- 09: F= Stunning Fist
- 10: RT= Skill Mastery
- 11: F= Dodge
- 12: RT= Opportunist
- 13: F= Mobility
- 14: RT= Combat Trick - Shadow Strike
- 15: F= Sidestep
- 16: RT= Minor Magic - Ghost Sound
- 17: F= Combat Patrol
- 18: RT= Major Magic - Silent Image
- 19: F= Dastardly Finish
- 20: RT= Feat - Spring Attack