...It's one thing to present tengu oni as the creatures of the older tales, who are more likely to be violent than protective. And it's true that tengu are associated with yamabushi.
But are you aware that yamabushi are an actual, still-extant religious order?
Seriously, this is like calling a new monster "Franciscan Demons." It's inappropriate and insulting. "Karasu Tengu" or "Konoha Tengu" would have been much easier to take.
Using the name of a real-world religion seems a lot more fraught with unfortunate implications to me than a personal name.
"Hasidic Devils."
"Sufi Divs."
"Sikh Rakshasha."
...is it really just me? ;.;
I have one too! Naming evil daughters of Baba Jaga "jadwigas" insults every woman named Jadwiga that I know, and there are a quite a few!
Nah, not *everyone*. Just some of them. Some might be actual witches, you know.
And back to topic:
Is Yamabushi name of the sect or rather word meaning more or less hermit that is usually used to refer specifically to the followers of shugendo?
Also, why no one ever bothered when the term Dervish was used in Pathfinder? (there are still active orders of dervishes in the world).
Is Yamabushi name of the sect or rather word meaning more or less hermit that is usually used to refer specifically to the followers of shugendo?
It does seem to be more the latter.
Also, why no one ever bothered when the term Dervish was used in Pathfinder? (there are still active orders of dervishes in the world).
's true, but at least they're not using "dervish" as the name of an evil otherworldy monster...
Also, why no one ever bothered when the term Dervish was used in Pathfinder? (there are still active orders of dervishes in the world).'s true, but at least they're not using "dervish" as the name of an evil otherworldy monster...
You haven't seen bloody carnage done by Dencing Dervish in our 3.5 game. Our foes would call him demon from the depths of hell.
I can't say for sure but I was under impression that yamabushi is more generic term name of sect.
Also, Japanese writers never seemed to have any qualms about using elements of Western Culture and twist them into anythink they liked... At least those who wrote plots for all those manag and anime horrorfantasy stories ;)
...It's one thing to present tengu oni as the creatures of the older tales, who are more likely to be violent than protective. And it's true that tengu are associated with yamabushi.
But are you aware that yamabushi are an actual, still-extant religious order?
Seriously, this is like calling a new monster "Franciscan Demons." It's inappropriate and insulting. "Karasu Tengu" or "Konoha Tengu" would have been much easier to take.
Franciscan Demons scare me more than any PF Monster to date...
...It's one thing to present tengu oni as the creatures of the older tales, who are more likely to be violent than protective. And it's true that tengu are associated with yamabushi.
But are you aware that yamabushi are an actual, still-extant religious order?
Seriously, this is like calling a new monster "Franciscan Demons." It's inappropriate and insulting. "Karasu Tengu" or "Konoha Tengu" would have been much easier to take.
You, sir, are inapropiate and insulting.
As you can see here and here, Yamabushi Tengu is a perfectly fine name for this oni. Couldn't you take the time to do a simple google search? The second link is the first result for the search "Yamabushi meaning". Really, some people only complain for the sake of complaining.
There are a bunch of woodblock prints of tengu that depict them as Yamabushi/shugendo priests. Any picture of a shugendo priest you see with a long pinocchio nose? That's a tengu. They have a roll in japanese folklore of being tricksters at times, but also of being teachers. They have taught famous samurai secret sword techniques, which is where pathfinder sources their natural affinity for blades.
So no. I don't think that paizo depicting a tengu as a yamabushi is off, because the japanese have been doing that on their own for hundreds of years. If shugendo practitioners minded, they would have spoken up by now.
All right, you've convinced me, I was being a big baby. Sorry n.n;
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It's impossible to be sure without looking at the kanji (and, ideally, consulting a native speaker). But my first guess would be that yamabushi can be a general noun as well as the particular, proper title of a monastic order. If true, then this is more like "hermit devil" or "monk devil" than "Franciscan devil".
My Japanese is pretty crap and I can't tell authentic mythology from Touhou, but I do know the Japanese version of the article says:
天狗や烏天狗は、山伏の装束を身に纏う。
Loosely, "Karasu Tengu are known to wear yamabushi clothes." Unlike the English yamabushi article, it specifically points out the connection. And the first line of the summary of the Japanese Tengu article is:
一般的に山伏の服装で赤ら顔で鼻が高く、翼があり空中を飛翔するとされる。
"Typically, they have yamabushi clothes and red faces with big noses, and fly in the air with wings."
I have no clue if you can use 山伏 as a general noun without referring to shugendou. I'm guessing you can't, but I'll ask a friend.
I do agree that Karasu Tengu is a better name, though.Not knowing who/what that was I tried Google Translate for the fun of it. It defaulted to Turkish and translated karasu as meaning glaucoma. I suddenly got the mental image of one of these things stumbling around, arms out in front of them, "You're dead ... once I find you!"
Haha! Nah, karasu means crow. So actually, now that I think about it, it wouldn't actually distinguish them from regular Pathfinder tengu at all. Yamabushi tengu really is the best name.
Several things:
Karasu does mean crow, however the lesser kind of tengu are called karasu tengu in Japan - due to their resemblance to crows.
Also yamabushi is NOT the conjunction of 'yama' meaning mountain and 'bushi' meaning fighter. The Japanese language has many homophones or words that sound alike. The word yamabushi referring to ascetic monks of a hermitic nature does not mean 'mountain fighter'. If you could read the kanji of yamabushi, it is different than the kanji for yama and bushi.
Folklore states that tengu taught yamabushi their secret ways and the religion Shugendo. So there is a close connection between tengu and yamabushi.
The famous Japanese General Minamoto Yoshitsune was said to have been taught martial skills by a tengu according to legend.
Also it is the Tengu use in Tian Xia that presents them with the subtype of 'oni', not by categorization as per Japanese folklore - it just fits their storyline. Tengu are neutral spiritual beings having undergone a kind of curse, but are not specifically evil.
For Tian Xia, Tengu are evil outsiders, not so for Japan.
In Rite Publishing's Kaidan setting, tengu are good guys not evil outsiders and fall under the subtype (yokai) animal based spiritual beings, not (oni). So it depends on the setting as to what a tengu's classification is.
Don't judge a slight to real world religion with some association with tengu. The concern is over Paizo's choice as tengu being oni that creates the implied problem. Not so by traditional folklore.
For Tian Xia, Tengu are evil outsiders, not so for Japan.
In Rite Publishing's Kaidan setting, tengu are good guys not evil outsiders and fall under the subtype (yokai) animal based spiritual beings, not (oni). So it depends on the setting as to what a tengu's classification is.
Don't judge a slight to real world religion with some association with tengu. The concern is over Paizo's choice as tengu being oni that creates the implied problem. Not so by traditional folklore.
Actually, on Golarion Tengu are nonmagical crow-like humanoids (known in earlier iterations of D&D as Kenku). Yamabushi Tengu is oni that mimics Tengu shape like Ogre Mage is oni mimicing Ogre shape.
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Also yamabushi is NOT the conjunction of 'yama' meaning mountain and 'bushi' meaning fighter. The Japanese language has many homophones or words that sound alike. The word yamabushi referring to ascetic monks of a hermitic nature does not mean 'mountain fighter'. If you could read the kanji of yamabushi, it is different than the kanji for yama and bushi.
山 is definitely yama, as in "mountain". But 伏 is not even close to fighter--that would be "prone" or "prostrate", as in prayer. So, the net meaning is more like "mountain priest". I still have no idea if that could mean any priest of the mountains, or if it's specifically a practitioner of shugendou.
Bushi by itself would be 武士, but you can't combine 山 and 武士 directly, because the reading of 武 changes when attached to another kanji. So if you meant "mountain fighter", you'd probably want something like 山の武士, yama no bushi.
LINGUISTICS!
Actually, on Golarion Tengu are nonmagical crow-like humanoids (known in earlier iterations of D&D as Kenku). Yamabushi Tengu is oni that mimics Tengu shape like Ogre Mage is oni mimicing Ogre shape.For Tian Xia, Tengu are evil outsiders, not so for Japan.
In Rite Publishing's Kaidan setting, tengu are good guys not evil outsiders and fall under the subtype (yokai) animal based spiritual beings, not (oni). So it depends on the setting as to what a tengu's classification is.
Don't judge a slight to real world religion with some association with tengu. The concern is over Paizo's choice as tengu being oni that creates the implied problem. Not so by traditional folklore.
Well I was referring to the OP's concern of Paizo's usage of tengu as a relationship to yamabushi and a real world religion of Shugendo - and how it was appropriate based on Japanese folklore, rather than some slight due to some oni evil outsider as subtyped by Pathfinder for the game system.
I was not really referring to the tengu's existence in D&D history and the mistaken EGG's usage of the kenku (not a real word) adapted to D&D previously.
I was not really referring to the tengu's existence in D&D history and the mistaken EGG's usage of the kenku (not a real word) adapted to D&D previously.
Kenku might be early transliteration of tengu to latin alphabet - either from XVI century or from second part of XIX. Or just attempt to write down tengu heard once or twice somewhere without real clue about its correct pronounciation and spelling.
I was not really referring to the tengu's existence in D&D history and the mistaken EGG's usage of the kenku (not a real word) adapted to D&D previously.Kenku might be early transliteration of tengu to latin alphabet - either from XVI century or from second part of XIX. Or just attempt to write down tengu heard once or twice somewhere without real clue about its correct pronounciation and spelling.
Like Peking/Beijing. Or Quran/Koran. Or Hannukah/Chanukah. It's hard to translate sounds without a shared alphabet.
Except the first translations of Japanese folklore to English was done by Lafcadio Hearn in 1899 in his Kwaidan - collection of translated short stories and he spelled/transliterated 'Tengu' correctly in that publication. So westerners got it right the first time - most subsequent awareness of Japanese folklore came exclusively through Lafcadio Hearn's work, up until well into the 20th century. So whereever 'kenku' came up it was NOT from initial mistransliterations.
Also Japanese folklore and ghost stories were considered 'low art' by upper classes of Japan, so that information was not shared with the Portuguese, Dutch and English prior to Japan closing it's borders in the 16th century. So the first introduction of Japanese folklore to the west was through Lafcadio Hearn's translations in 1899. (I'm trying to justify how an earlier mistransliteration cannot be pointed to blame for the existence of 'kenku').
In my research, I have not seen the existence of 'kenku' anywhere except from the first Fiend Folio, then in the first Oriental Adventures. However, this isn't the first EGG Japanese word error he brought into the game.
Shugenja was also introduced about the same time, and has subsequently remained in RPG usage in all iterations of Oriental Adventures and even used in L5R, however, Shugenja is a word taken out of context. It does not mean a priest of Shugendo - as EGG originally suspected. Rather Shugenja refers to anyone following the path of Shugendo - which could be a child or simple farmer. Shugenja to Shugendo is the same as Christian is to Christianity. While a Catholic priest might be properly called a 'Christian', this isn't the default word for priest.
Yamabushi is the correct term for a priest of Shugendo.
In the end, there was less information about folklore Japan in 1970's compared to today. So its understandable for a westerner to get his terms wrong. And I'm not really complaining about EGG's word choices. However, now that we have better information, isn't it better to get the vocabulary right?
A greater part of my Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting, being published by Rite Publishing and Cubicle 7 is for my need to provide a more authentic Japan-inspired setting - including correcting vocabulary mistakes from previous RPG designers.
That's my main point regarding 'kenku'.
Japanese lore, culture, history is a part of my expertise that Paizo has access to since I am one of the Gazetteer authors for Jade Regent's Minkai (Japan analog), so even Paizo recognizes my expertise.
Don't judge a slight to real world religion with some association with tengu. The concern is over Paizo's choice as tengu being oni that creates the implied problem. Not so by traditional folklore.
True, but RPGs have always made alterations to folklore and has often taken just as much liberties with Western folklore as with Eastern.
Look at the Tarrasque, which is based off of the Tarasque of french myth. Does the Tarrasque have six short bear-like legs? An ox-like body with a turtle shell? A scorpion's stinger at the end of its tail? How about a lion head? It also isn't tied to water. If anything, it has evolved over time into a take on Godzilla/Gojira.
Angels aren't floating helmets, or warriors with spears for arms. Demons and devils intertwine and are often synomanous with each other, or sometimes referred to types of spirits. Dragons are not magic users in the vast majority of western myth, succubi and incubi come in the night to "attack" sleeper instead of being seducers and centaurs have poisonous blood.
I realize that Rite Publishing made Tengu the good guys, but that isn't the whole of their folklore. The earliest versions of Tengu are the exact opposite, usually depicted as evil spirits or angry ghosts. That is the history that Paizo is looking at when designing the Yamabushi Tengu.
Paizo Oni are evil spirits who have taken a physical form. They decided to create a creature based more on aspects of the original tengu myths rather than what they eventually evolved to be. The core of the myths are there, but the creature is different. Is this a terrible violation of folklore? It depends on your point of view, but it's no different than the adjustments made to fit succubi, centaurs, the Tarasque and the like into the game.
Rite Publishing has a different approach to the tengu than Paizo, but their version is just as selective and adjusted to fit their view of the game and the myth. After all, Rite Publishing's Tengu aren't ghosts of the arrogant or capable of possessing people to seduce and corrupt. I don't see either as being disrespectful to the culture, since games have always been inspired by mythology and folklore, not perfectly accurate recreations.
Show me a game company that claims to have the definitive or accurate version of a mythological creature and chances are I can point to a myth or set of stories that haven't been taken into account.
I'm not taking then tact that Paizo is doing something wrong in their depiction of Tengu, nor in Rite Publishing's version, I was merely responding to the OP's concern that doing so was somehow a slight on a real world religion. I don't consider it a slight, in fact, connecting tengu to yamabushi only makes sense as it closely matches Japanese folklore. I was trying to lighten the concerns to that.
However, just as you mention tengu being considered evil creatures, tengu were just as often considered teachers of martial arts to those who found them in their mountain strongholds. In Japan even the oni are not considered evil per se. Often protectors of concepts and festivals. The idea of good and evil is more a western concern having little to do with Japanese folklore. Oni are as often guardians and lesser deities to being what we consider demons.
Tengu were believed to be reincarnated spirits of monks who were greedy in life. Beyond that tengu were hardly evil.
Creative Director
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When it comes to tengu... we made them, like humans, neutral. They can be good guys as easily as they can be bad guys as a result. There's a big difference in Pathfinder between tengu and yamabushi tengu, just as there's a big difference between ogres and ogre magi.
The oni, on the other hand, ARE supposed to be evil. And since they're based on mythology, that means we'll periodically be going to history or mythology sources to build names for them. We'll ALSO be making nonsense names—Asian equivalents to names like "aboleth" or "Tar-Baphon" or "Aroden."
It's NOT meant to be a slight against any real-world religion, and in fact, that's something we at Paizo take pretty seriously; when we include things that are from real world mythology or religion, we try to treat the topic with the respect it deserves. That said, we're not all scholars of religion here at Paizo, and at times, we might not fully comprehend the full implications of some word choices. We do our best.
In any event, the use of the word "yamabushi" was indeed chosen as the name for this monster for the literal meaning of the word and not the religious meaning.
(The monster's original name was just "tengu oni." Not nearly as flavorable, and didn't match the naming convention already established for the ogre mage, so we changed it. Going forward, most of our oni will have nonsense names—a choice I expect different folks to be more or less equally annoyed with, but we knew that some people were going to get particularly invested in and passionate about the names of everything once we went over to Tian Xia anyway.)
Well here's a link to a map of a Tengu Village, Akayama, that I created for the Cartographers' Guild August Mapping Challenge (create a mountain theme map).
Something a bit more positive on Tengu...
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