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I have my own plans to alter the AC system while instituting Armor as DR, as well as some kind of Wound point mechanic. But I've been holding those plans up awaiting the arrival of UC and Paizo's versions of these alternates. Well, I received my copy late last week and, while I appreciate some aspects of these rules, I was disappointed.
So, I would like to discuss possibilities for all three of these alternate systems: Armor Class (specifically the DC of to hit rolls), Armor as DR, and Wound/Vitality point type mechanics.
How have you/would you work these, and what are your experiences (if any) with them?
PS(I know this is futile, but): If you simply object to these ideas, or wish that we would "just play a different game", etc. please, just go to a different thread.
I would not replace AC with DR. Using a defense bonus system such as SW Saga or Iron Heroes could replace AC. The DR could be something that is added on.
As for the wound system I have no idea how to make it work. I have issues with every version I have seen with regards to 3.5/pathfinder.
I would not replace AC with DR. Using a defense bonus system such as SW Saga or Iron Heroes could replace AC. The DR could be something that is added on.
Yes, that is precisely what I meant.
As for the wound system I have no idea how to make it work. I have issues with every version I have seen with regards to 3.5/pathfinder.
Me as well. I hope to work out the kinks with help from this awesome brain trust.
I have my own plans to alter the AC system while instituting Armor as DR, as well as some kind of Wound point mechanic. But I've been holding those plans up awaiting the arrival of UC and Paizo's versions of these alternates. Well, I received my copy late last week and, while I appreciate some aspects of these rules, I was disappointed.
So, I would like to discuss possibilities for all three of these alternate systems: Armor Class (specifically the DC of to hit rolls), Armor as DR, and Wound/Vitality point type mechanics.
How have you/would you work these, and what are your experiences (if any) with them?
PS(I know this is futile, but): If you simply object to these ideas, or wish that we would "just play a different game", etc. please, just go to a different thread.
We hybridized the system; 1/2 of regular AC stays AC, the other half becomes DR. So a chain shirt is +2 AC, DR2. We did a bit of math on this, against most things it's a dead heat (you get hit more but take less damage per hit), but vs things that would likely hit you regardless, taking less damage is an advantage. Natural armor also gets treated this way, so monsters get easier to hit too.
Normal hits go to Vitality (HP) first, then Would Points (=Con), which represents real damage. Most of this is pulled from 3.5 Unearthed Arcana. Critical hits go straight to Wound Points, so combat can be very deadly; adjust combats accordingly. Weapon multipliers don't exist, IIRC they adjust critical rates slightly to compensate.
Taking 1/2 your total Wound Points in one hit is a grievous wound (broken bone, impalement, etc) that can cause unconsciousness (Fort Save vs damage) and Exhaustion (automatic). Healing of Wounds is on a 1 per 5 HP restored basis (round down), and Vitality points are recovered a 1/level per hour of rest. So if no-one takes Wound damage, people recover fairly quickly without healing, but healing magic still has a place when time is an issue. Natural healing of Wound points was on the order of 1 per day, maybe less, I'd have to check the game notes.
All of this makes for a grittier game and eliminates a cavalier attitude to combat. A lucky arrow from a hobgoblin can ruin your day on the first shot, so fighting smart and keeping retreat as an option is a big deal. The idea of fighting six or seven battles in one day pretty much goes out the window; goal oriented play rather than encounter oriented play is the better route. Our GM doesn't even give XP if we go out looking for a fight (enter woods, encounter monster, kill it, done) that's not mission/story oriented. OTOH we get full XP if we can accomplish our goals without killing a single thing.
I have my own plans to alter the AC system while instituting Armor as DR, as well as some kind of Wound point mechanic. But I've been holding those plans up awaiting the arrival of UC and Paizo's versions of these alternates. Well, I received my copy late last week and, while I appreciate some aspects of these rules, I was disappointed.
So, I would like to discuss possibilities for all three of these alternate systems: Armor Class (specifically the DC of to hit rolls), Armor as DR, and Wound/Vitality point type mechanics.
How have you/would you work these, and what are your experiences (if any) with them?
PS(I know this is futile, but): If you simply object to these ideas, or wish that we would "just play a different game", etc. please, just go to a different thread.
We hybridized the system; 1/2 of regular AC stays AC, the other half becomes DR. So a chain shirt is +2 AC, DR2. We did a bit of math on this, against most things it's a dead heat (you get hit more but take less damage per hit), but vs things that would likely hit you regardless, taking less damage is an advantage. Natural armor also gets treated this way, so monsters get easier to hit too.
Normal hits go to Vitality (HP) first, then Would Points (=Con), which represents real damage. Most of this is pulled from 3.5 Unearthed Arcana. Critical hits go straight to Wound Points, so combat can be very deadly; adjust combats accordingly. Weapon multipliers don't exist, IIRC they adjust critical rates slightly to compensate.
Taking 1/2 your total Wound Points in one hit is a grievous wound (broken bone, impalement, etc) that can cause unconsciousness (Fort Save vs damage) and Exhaustion (automatic). Healing of Wounds is on a 1 per 5 HP restored basis (round down), and Vitality points are recovered a 1/level per hour of rest. So if no-one takes Wound damage, people recover fairly quickly without healing, but healing magic still has a place when time is an issue. Natural healing of Wound points was on the...
Thanks for the response Helic.
I have pretty good ideas for the AC and DR. I'm thinking 1/3 armor bonus, and either 2/3 or full DR, (I'll have to work out my damage levels so I know what will work best) along with some form of class defense bonus. I was intrigued by the bare bones 'flat-footed + shield + dodge' system put forward in UC. However, I think it is unworkable without some increase over levels, or a drastic reduction in attack bonuses.
My problem is Wound points. That's the main reason I wanted to get your experience, because I have been at this problem six ways from Sunday, but I always run up against how easy it is to get whacked. I'm not afraid of that per se, but I need it to be manageable or I'll lose my player's interest. I may have to bite the bullet and roll with it, while instituting some kind of Hero point ass saving mechanic. That might work.
Edited so I don't sound like an elementary school drop-out.
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Here's what I have been kicking around (and it makes the game far more lethal), there are also some great benefits to this alternate system as I will lay out:
Also for every wound point taken Max Vigor -2. Ex 60 vigor and 15 out of 20 wounds (5 x -2= -10): Max Vigor = 50
Would give extra/less DR on a P/S/B sig for each armor - might only use the last part for low magic/heavy melee games where melee is the focus and that level of detail won't be a time sink
With the suggested Con mod dump to hp the whole thing got me thinking, to make this work I need:
A) Less incoming damage (Reason: Light/no armor PCs will be obliterated, reduce dice + mods reduce math needed)
EX Str 19 Str with short sword would be +4 to hit and do 1d8 damage. Would need to figure out how to run weapon spec, power attack, et al.
or not, I am also comfortable capping Str damage bonus at +7 damage
In any case I think reducing or eliminating the Str bonus should be a consideration since under this system hp have been deflated - in many cases for some creatures by hundreds of hit points. So I would need to revisit all the damage multipliers, modifiers, etc. Maybe take the most time consuming and game dragging ones out. Focus on keeping those with more ease of use and implementation.
Would also need to look at evo/max damage enhancers. With all the reduction in power evo got in 3rd ed with hp inflation evo now becomes a super-killer tool to wipe-out foes - too much so. So I would look at dumping a ton a feats from the game. Again to restate - with a reduced hp/wound system I would consider removing many feats from the game
(2) Instead of category shifts for weapon base damage die just half all Str damage (round down).
Str 16 gets +3 to hit +1 damage.
B) DR that isn't by default too high to limit most weapons.
This is all just off the top of my head. I don't know how easy this system would run, with all the changes required but there are some great aspects and potential if it is done (figured out) correctly:
1) Evocation damage gets its groove back (actually needs to be nerfed under reduced hp system)
2) Action economy is reduced back to 1st/2nd ed levels with Armor as DR. Armor soak from each attack reduces the "swarm the creature" aspect of gaming - armor now works to mitigate incoming damage and it doesn't matter if it is 1 or 20 sources (again, just with regard to damage).
3) Hp and numbers get brought under control. I would strongly suggest dumping most if all damage enhancing feats - keeping only the most basic (Weapon Spec, and figure out a Power Attack that doesn't break the DR system). Thus if taken to its logical end: fewer feats overall.
4) If DR is not as high (as I suggested) as the variant rules presents them then the need for damage output is reduced considerably.
In some regard this could affect the xmas tree paradigm (again, item creation, max damage, etc, would need to all be re-examined) that currently exists in the game. If there are Str damage caps then the focus on raising Str would be eliminated, Same with Con.
Just need to figure out how to cap the casting stats/benefits....
I don't think for a moment that my suggestions are for everyone.
I do think that if you are considering these rules then: Wounds/Armor as DR is a package deal & feats need to be revisited (for game breakers).
Just a few ideas – not sure what to do with this stuff or the effort to implement, I might just move back to a different game system that has all these things already built in with no "forcing" issues.
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I have pretty good ideas for the AC and DR. I'm thinking 1/3 armor bonus, and either 2/3 or full DR, (I'll have to work out my damage levels so I know what will work best) along with some form of class defense bonus. I was intrigued by the bare bones 'flat-footed + shield + dodge' system put forward in UC. However, I think it is unworkable without some increase over levels, or a drastic reduction in attack bonuses.
I think it's taken care of on the back end - you get scaling DR per 5 HD. As written the focus of the whole system is to minimize AC/to hit, though in some cases with enough bonuses (to AC) it still could be a small factor, but with the actual AC value taking such a hit I think the score loses much of it's importance.
With this system it is all about being hit frequently and seeing how that works with DR/Vigor/Wounds.
I do like Helic's 1/2 and 1/2 approach to AC and DR. Just need to play around with it and see the hit/miss/damage ratios.
I do like Helic's 1/2 and 1/2 approach to AC and DR. Just need to play around with it and see the hit/miss/damage ratios.
As I said, we did the maths (not extensively, but we did them) and it's largely break-even. Some low end critters are helpless vs armored foes unless they Critical (which is realistic), and against high-end foes, you can't avoid being hit anyways, so DR just softens the blow (especially important if you're using Wounds as well).
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The more I think about it the more AC/DR split becomes appealing. I think it still keeps AC as a factor, just very reduced one (more of a factor than presented in the variant rules).
And yeah, a big concern is lower damage monsters or specialized monsters that need damage = effect getting past even minor DR, whereas the effect is their one-trick.
Under a DR system (even reduced) some low-damage creatures would need to be re-examined in their roles - maybe change some specialized abilities to go with hitting touch AC vs. getting 1pt of hp damage to poison the target?
The more I think about it the more AC/DR split becomes appealing. I think it still keeps AC as a factor, just very reduced one (more of a factor than presented in the variant rules).
And yeah, a big concern is lower damage monsters or specialized monsters that need damage = effect getting past even minor DR, whereas the effect is their one-trick.
Under a DR system (even reduced) some low-damage creatures would need to be re-examined in their roles - maybe change some specialized abilities to go with hitting touch AC vs. getting 1pt of hp damage to poison the target?
No change needed, really. If a monster can't do enough damage to have an effect, that's what armor is for. Though only normal armor and natural armor are affected in our game; enhancement bonuses go to AC, amd magical armor bonuses (Mage Armor) are straight AC.
Though we do rule that a 20 (we use 2D10, so it is rare) bypasses DR entirely. So you're never totally save vs rattlesnakes.
Ultimate Combat has these alternate rules written and ready to use. ;)
Yeah, but not everyone has one yet :-(