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I know they say THF is king, but I'm really curious: How big a disparity are we talking about here?
I know the feat investment is higher for twf.
I'm trying to get a more accurate look at the system as it is now, before I begin assigning houserules for my fall campaign. Currently; I'll be giving the vital strike line at the same levels you get new iterative attacks (and counting monk as full bab to qualify), as well as giving all players imp. unarmed strike for free (this one is just a setting fluff thing).
But I want to know what the main combat disparities are.Lets assume for sake of argument we don't have to worry about the gold investment on enchanting the twf build. that aside, what makes a twfer fall behind so far, and how far behind are they falling?
likewise for the sword and boarder. I'm quite curious to see how it works out.
could I get some info?
Thanks guys.
Download a DPR calculator and do up three human fighter builds.
The disparities are quite large. And its all down to Str scores.
My fix was to let double slice also let you get full power attack on your offhand, thus patching double slice and all TWF. Another problem exasperated in fighters is that your way better off using all of one type of weapon, which really hurts S&B.
Another fix is to limit the highest starting score to 17. This slows THF and wizards and kin down a little bit, and evens the palying field.
EDIT: I can post up some numbers, but TWFs usually do 70-85% of the damage as is, and this gets worse as you approach level 10.
Another problem exasperated in fighters is that your way better off using all of one type of weapon, which really hurts S&B.
How about introducing feats like this:
Sword and Board Fighter
requires Improved Shield Bash
Choose a single handed weapon. Whenenver you make a shield bash, apply all specific boni you receive for the chosen weapon like Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization. You can not profit from specific boni for shields while doing that.
(while the feat is named Sword and Board, the chosen weapon does not necessary has to be a sword)
Main Gauche Fighter
As the feat above but with a dagger in the off hand instead of a shield
Even if comes up that S&B deals less damage, you have shown nothing.
Such fighter would have more AC and more control on the battlefield thanks to Bull Rush.
In case, the feat investmetn could be discussed. But DPR alone means nothing.
Yeah one of the player's in my Kingmaker game is a S&B fighter. Sure he could be doing more damage as a THF or even a TWF but he does sick damage as is and also has an AC that makes most of the opposition need a '20' to hit him.
Last I looked his AC was mid to high 40's and his damage was around 1d10+1d6+thirty something.
How much DPR do people need anyway? He kills most mobs in one full attack action and pretty much nothing lives through two. It actually makes me sad at how much high level play breaks down.
Yeah one of the player's in my Kingmaker game is a S&B fighter. Sure he could be doing more damage as a THF or even a TWF but he does sick damage as is and also has an AC that makes most of the opposition need a '20' to hit him.
Last I looked his AC was mid to high 40's and his damage was around 1d10+1d6+thirty something.
How much DPR do people need anyway? He kills most mobs in one full attack action and pretty much nothing lives through two. It actually makes me sad at how much high level play breaks down.
If a fighter kills things and avoids to be killed he's just good in his job. A lot of things screw fighters, expecially at high levels (mind affecting, fly if unequipped..) so if your player is doing fine, why should you thin the game is broken?
Yeah one of the player's in my Kingmaker game is a S&B fighter. Sure he could be doing more damage as a THF or even a TWF but he does sick damage as is and also has an AC that makes most of the opposition need a '20' to hit him.
Last I looked his AC was mid to high 40's and his damage was around 1d10+1d6+thirty something.
How much DPR do people need anyway? He kills most mobs in one full attack action and pretty much nothing lives through two. It actually makes me sad at how much high level play breaks down.
What level is he? I had a fighter get above 50 when I ran it. A GM has to adjust the game to his group if they are really good at builds.
It's probably a topic for another thread but he is level 13, they have very good gear thanks to being rulers of a kingdom and the way that system works.
Just pointing out that from what I have seen as long as you have a decent magic weapon for your level and power attack DPR is not something to worry about the bad guy dies and dies fast. Sure all characters have weakness and strengths and you work with those but when the majority of appropriate CR bad guys die in one or two rounds and only hit you on a 20 during that time it makes the game wonky IMHO.
So back on topic I don't think any fighting style is worse than the others they just have there own strengths given certain situations.
Sword and Board- Strength very high AC / Weakness fewer attacks and less damage. (But still enough to kill most things very fast)
Two handed style - Strength crazy high damage hits especially crits / Weakness lower AC then S&B fighter (But with the right gear still respectful)
Two weapon fighter - Strength a ton of attacks that do decent damage and lots of chances to get critical hits and the added effects they can do / Weakness AC about the same as THS and all your extra attacks can be useless against high AC opponents.
Archery - Strength distance and easy to make a full attack every round / weakness Sunder attacks
When it is all said and done though if you can still get enough damage done with sword and board why not go for it and get hit a lot less often. I mean taking a guy to -4 with 3 hits or taking him down to -45 with 2 hits he is still down and if the next guy is more than 5' away you still full attacked.
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Honestly I haven't ever *seen* Sword and Board in pathfinder, I included it because i was curious if it was a decent build. Having seen TWF, it's definitely a crappier way to build your character than THF. They're both supposed to be routes focused on attacking, and even if you're not taking into account the added money for TWF and the fact that you're going to get hit doubly by anything with Damage Reduction, your ability to make things hurt is still trailing FAR behind that of the THFer.
Honestly I haven't ever *seen* Sword and Board in pathfinder, I included it because i was curious if it was a decent build. Having seen TWF, it's definitely a crappier way to build your character than THF. They're both supposed to be routes focused on attacking, and even if you're not taking into account the added money for TWF and the fact that you're going to get hit doubly by anything with Damage Reduction, your ability to make things hurt is still trailing FAR behind that of the THFer.
I have seen a S&B. Very feat intensive, but for level 12 was just scary. Flail + Improved Trip, and Shield + Bull Rush. Great control of the battlefield and decent DPR.
Quite awesome, more then one time I've seen him prepare an action, trip, and bash away the target with the AOO.
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Download a DPR calculator and do up three human fighter builds.
The disparities are quite large. And its all down to Str scores.
Well, no, not really.
It comes down to an absence of rogue levels or other classes than pile on non-numeric bonuses to multi-attacks.
2H optimizes barb/fighters with extended-threat-range Furious weapons.
TWF optimizes figh/rogues with a pair of +3d6 weapons and lots of spare daggers to chuck.
Another problem exasperated in fighters is that your way better off using all of one type of weapon, which really hurts S&B.
Is it better to have WT+6 with Gloves of Dueling in a single category of weapons at 17th, or WT+3 in four different categories of weapons (e.g.: heavy blades, close, bows, thrown)?
Sword and Board is not necessarily characterized by the Shield Slam line of feats, which I personally find underwhelming. The Fighter's Phalanx Soldier Archetype, for example, is best optimized (in my opinion) by using the Tower Shield, which does not allow for shield bashes. Many of that Archetype's features (such as Irresistible Advance) get the largest bonus from the Fighter using the Tower Shield. The Phalanx Soldier loses some of the fighter's best perks (Armor Training, Weapon Training), but in return gets the potential to be a Combat Maneuver Beast (Defending against and Enacting them), as well as providing a helpful ally defense buff that gets much better later on and couples well with the bodyguard and Vital Strike feats. Not to mention negating some of the penalties for using a Tower Shield in the first place!
Its a tricky build, and I put a lot of thought into a Human Phalanx Soldier build with Heart of the Streets (Allies benefit from standing next to you, why not you to them?). With some Bonus Feat switching, and a Halberd for tripping, you get a strong Defensive Support Fighter that is viable at all levels of play. The resulting build is something I am extremely pleased with and which I call the "Hoplite". It still sword and board, but in its own unique way.