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Hello Pathfinder players! I'm here to ask for help with a Goblin Rogue. Currently my DM is considering a 10 point buy system. There is a certain feat for scimitars that makes it so you use dex instead of str for attack and damage rolls. Is there also a feat that makes a scimitar a light weapon? Is is wise to dump str and cha? I'm pretty sure that I'm not going to be the face considering that we are going to have a cleric and a sorcerer. That and I sort of need points for intelligence to get extra skills.Please help me out with a build, note I'm willing to take some fighter levels if required. Thanks for reading!
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Dervish Dance allows you to use dexterity instead of strength for attack and damage rolls but only if you don't hold another weapon or shield in you off-hand. Rogues aren't proficient with scimitars, so that's another feat they'd need to take.
You might want to play a ninja, ranger or alchemist instead since they are generally viewed as more useful than rogues.
Dervish Dance allows you to use dexterity instead of strength for attack and damage rolls but only if you don't hold another weapon or shield in you off-hand. Rogues aren't proficient with scimitars, so that's another feat they'd need to take.
You might want to play a ninja, ranger or alchemist instead since they are generally viewed as more useful than rogues.
What are the main benefits of playing a ninja? Also where could I find information on them since they're UC?
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What are the main benefits of playing a ninja? Also where could I find information on them since they're UC?
They are better at stealth than rogues and have some nice tricks. They do, however, need charisma, so they might not be the best class for a goblin.
And they are in Ultimate Combat (but aren't changed that much from the beta version).
Attempting to build ANY character on a 10 point buy is going to be quite difficult to make effective. Try to talk your GM into letting you build something at 20 point buy, which is what PFS uses, or at the very least use the Elite Array for stats, since that's what the CR system is balanced around. A party of 10 point buy characters will struggle with even the most basic of challenges, even from level-equivalent enemies.
Splashing a level of fighter would net you Scimitar proficiency, though the rest of the fighter proficiencies are wasted for the most part. If you're willing to give up trapfinding, the Swashbuckler archetype lets you give up Trapfinding for a single martial weapon proficiency of your choice and the ability to take the Combat Trick rogue talent twice.
What are the main benefits of playing a ninja? Also where could I find information on them since they're UC?They are better at stealth than rogues and have some nice tricks. They do, however, need charisma, so they might not be the best class for a goblin.
And they are in Ultimate Combat (but aren't changed that much from the beta version).
What races would you recommend for Ninja?
Attempting to build ANY character on a 10 point buy is going to be quite difficult to make effective. Try to talk your GM into letting you build something at 20 point buy, which is what PFS uses, or at the very least use the Elite Array for stats, since that's what the CR system is balanced around. A party of 10 point buy characters will struggle with even the most basic of challenges, even from level-equivalent enemies.
Splashing a level of fighter would net you Scimitar proficiency, though the rest of the fighter proficiencies are wasted for the most part. If you're willing to give up trapfinding, the Swashbuckler archetype lets you give up Trapfinding for a single martial weapon proficiency of your choice and the ability to take the Combat Trick rogue talent twice.
If you were going to give a statistical argument on the 10 point buy system in comparison to the 20 point buy system what would it be? My DM wants to make the game challenging. I keep telling him that he's gimping the characters but he tells me that an extra plus one to hit or damage doesn't matter a huge amount. He just brushes past the fact that MAD characters are going to cry and SAD are just going to point fingers for his companions not being of any use.
If you were going to give a statistical argument on the 10 point buy system in comparison to the 20 point buy system what would it be? My DM wants to make the game challenging. I keep telling him that he's gimping the characters but he tells me that an extra plus one to hit or damage doesn't matter a huge amount. He just brushes past the fact that MAD characters are going to cry and SAD are just going to point fingers for his companions not being of any use.
I'd send him to this thread.
10 points, as you said, is tough on any character, even the SAD ones. The way to make a game challenging isn't to gimp the characters, but to give them encounters and challenges that push them out of their comfort zones and make them strategize. I usually give super-high stats to my players, and make up for it with tough encounters where the enemy has some advantage (or two). I like to think that imagination is the key to an exciting game, and I don't feel bad taking the gloves off, because even the fighter has a decent will save.
A cave full of kobolds who actually think and act like kobolds can really chew up a party with traps and ambushes, while the same kobolds in a flat, featureless room are toast.
Crappy stats means crappy saves, hit points, etc. You'll never get through the adventure if you have to stop and wait for someone to make up a new character every third encounter.
Characters are going to be half as strong as the game is designed around. Anyone that needs more than two stats is screwed so much that they aren't playable to a level that will even approach enjoyable. If he wants to make it a challenge, up the Creature of the encounters. Use APL+ 3, not gimping everyone.
Frankly, if he wants to do 10 point buy, he should look into Commoners & Crippling Druggery, not anything based on Dungeons & Dragons.
If you were going to give a statistical argument on the 10 point buy system in comparison to the 20 point buy system what would it be? My DM wants to make the game challenging. I keep telling him that he's gimping the characters but he tells me that an extra plus one to hit or damage doesn't matter a huge amount. He just brushes past the fact that MAD characters are going to cry and SAD are just going to point fingers for his companions not being of any use.I'd send him to this thread.
10 points, as you said, is tough on any character, even the SAD ones. The way to make a game challenging isn't to gimp the characters, but to give them encounters and challenges that push them out of their comfort zones and make them strategize. I usually give super-high stats to my players, and make up for it with tough encounters where the enemy has some advantage (or two). I like to think that imagination is the key to an exciting game, and I don't feel bad taking the gloves off, because even the fighter has a decent will save.
A cave full of kobolds who actually think and act like kobolds can really chew up a party with traps and ambushes, while the same kobolds in a flat, featureless room are toast.
Crappy stats means crappy saves, hit points, etc. You'll never get through the adventure if you have to stop and wait for someone to make up a new character every third encounter.
Well this campaign is going to start within about two weeks and since you seem to know what you're talking about I was wondering what classes do you recommend(even ones in UC) for someone that likes to play stealthy characters? I want to be useful to my team out of combat and in combat as well. However I'm afraid that he'll stick with the 10 point buy system which makes me cower at the thought of playing an archer ranger.
What races would you recommend for Ninja?Hobgoblins might work well. Or halflings. Humans, Half-elfs and Half-orcs work with any class.
Both the Hobgoblin and Halfling seem good. However I have a question does the 20ft ms hurt? It seems like you might need some investment to be on par with others in combat.
Attempting to build ANY character on a 10 point buy is going to be quite difficult to make effective. Try to talk your GM into letting you build something at 20 point buy, which is what PFS uses, or at the very least use the Elite Array for stats, since that's what the CR system is balanced around. A party of 10 point buy characters will struggle with even the most basic of challenges, even from level-equivalent enemies.
The way to make a game challenging isn't to gimp the characters, but to give them encounters and challenges that push them out of their comfort zones and make them strategize. I usually give super-high stats to my players, and make up for it with tough encounters where the enemy has some advantage (or two). I like to think that imagination is the key to an exciting game, and I don't feel bad taking the gloves off, because even the fighter has a decent will save.
Characters are going to be half as strong as the game is designed around. Anyone that needs more than two stats is screwed so much that they aren't playable to a level that will even approach enjoyable. If he wants to make it a challenge, up the Creature of the encounters. Use APL+ 3, not gimping everyone.
Lies and misinformation spread by power-gamers!
OK, that was harsh. I'm not calling anyone here a power-gamer, I don't know you all that well, but you're still perpetuating falsehoods.
A 10 point buy will, in fact, be difficult, but the way in which it will be difficult will be different than high powered characters facing off against high CR opponents.
You're going to miss a little more, you're going to get hit a little more, your spells are going to get saved a little more, and you're going to have a few less hit points. This is actually more similar to a 15 point buy and every opponent you face has the Simple Advanced Template, just without the numbers bloat. It's still not quite the same, PCs will have a couple less spells, and a couple less uses of some abilities.
How this will play out in a game, is your game will be more gritty. Especially at first level. Canny characters that survive to 3rd level will indeed have something to be proud of.
This play style isn't for everybody. Players who don't enjoy superior tactics, rather preferring to trade blows with an opponent on even terms until one of them drops, are going to die a lot, and might not have any fun. Players who gain more enjoyment from high dice roll modifiers than high dice rolls might have more fun using the Advanced template method I mentioned above. Their to hit chance doesn't change, but they get to feel better about a higher modifier.
Talk to your fellow players, if they don't want a gritty game, then talk to you DM collectively, and plan a game you all will enjoy. If it's just you, give it a try and see how you feel, or just sit out this game and look for one more suited to your tastes.
I feel this is approaching a Wall Of Text, so I'll post my SAD/MAD character rant below.
One more thing:
A cave full of kobolds who actually think and act like kobolds can really chew up a party with traps and ambushes, while the same kobolds in a flat, featureless room are toast.
A cave full of kobolds with traps and ambushes will be an EL of 3,4, or 5, or more higher due to the traps and ambushes than the same kobolds on an open field.
Interestingly, the same is not true of PCs. Their APL is the same regardless of what tactics they employ.
Attempting to build ANY character on a 10 point buy is going to be quite difficult to make effective. Try to talk your GM into letting you build something at 20 point buy, which is what PFS uses, or at the very least use the Elite Array for stats, since that's what the CR system is balanced around. A party of 10 point buy characters will struggle with even the most basic of challenges, even from level-equivalent enemies.The way to make a game challenging isn't to gimp the characters, but to give them encounters and challenges that push them out of their comfort zones and make them strategize. I usually give super-high stats to my players, and make up for it with tough encounters where the enemy has some advantage (or two). I like to think that imagination is the key to an exciting game, and I don't feel bad taking the gloves off, because even the fighter has a decent will save.Characters are going to be half as strong as the game is designed around. Anyone that needs more than two stats is screwed so much that they aren't playable to a level that will even approach enjoyable. If he wants to make it a challenge, up the Creature of the encounters. Use APL+ 3, not gimping everyone.Lies and misinformation spread by power-gamers!
OK, that was harsh. I'm not calling anyone here a power-gamer, I don't know you all that well, but you're still perpetuating falsehoods.
A 10 point buy will, in fact, be difficult, but the way in which it will be difficult will be different than high powered characters facing off against high CR opponents.
You're going to miss a little more, you're going to get hit a little more, your spells are going to get saved a little more, and you're going to have a few less hit points. This is actually more similar to a 15 point buy and every opponent you face has the Simple Advanced Template, just without the numbers bloat. It's still not quite the same, PCs will have a couple less...
Let me hear your way of making MAD characters effective. Also do you know a couple of ways to get my movement up on a halfling?
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Both the Hobgoblin and Halfling seem good. However I have a question does the 20ft ms hurt? It seems like you might need some investment to be on par with others in combat.What races would you recommend for Ninja?Hobgoblins might work well. Or halflings. Humans, Half-elfs and Half-orcs work with any class.
Slow movement isn't a problem in combat only. In one of my campaigns, the dwarven rogue failed at tailing a suspect because he couldn't keep up.
Hobgoblin is probably the more solid choice.
Both the Hobgoblin and Halfling seem good. However I have a question does the 20ft ms hurt? It seems like you might need some investment to be on par with others in combat.What races would you recommend for Ninja?Hobgoblins might work well. Or halflings. Humans, Half-elfs and Half-orcs work with any class.Slow movement isn't a problem in combat only. In one of my campaigns, the dwarven rogue failed at tailing a suspect because he couldn't keep up.
Hobgoblin is probably the more solid choice.
Idk the +1 to hit +1 to AC +1 to Saves is pretty good. Since I'm not going to have high strength what is the most effective way to deal good damage without stealing all of my feats? Should I just go dervish dance?
I agree that you'll have a lousy ranger with those stats. I'd go with the swashbuckler rogue, unless you really need trapfinding. If that's the case, you'll have to wait and take d. dance at 5th.
S 8, D 17, C 13, I 10, W 10, Ch 7, for a total of S 6, D 21, C 13, I 10, W 10, Ch 5.
I frown on low int. builds for rogues. Your skills are too important, at least in my games. Get those 8 points per level, and don't forget Use Magic Device. Even with your awful charisma, it's good to have. Your casters aren't going to have lots of bonus spells to cast on you, so you'll want to get a wand or 2, eventually.
Take scimitar and weapon finesse at 1st, then dervish dance at 3rd. That would work well, since small characters don't do a lot of damage, but adding your dex mod to damage at 3rd will help a lot, and the higher crit range will help a little, too. You're too small and weak for TWF, and that takes a lot of feats to be effective, anyway. Bump your dex at 4th, and you'll be hitting for +6 to hit and damage before any other modifiers. Use a crossbow, too (ignore your strength penalty that way).
I wouldn't usually take magical talent for a trait, but for a goblin rogue character, it would work great for acid splash ranged sneak attacks. Ranged touch + small size + high dex + no SR + no save + sneak damage makes it good for little rogues. You can't add sneak damage if you don't hit.
For the other trait, I'd take the one that adds +1 to will saves (I forgot the name). You'll need it sometime.
Stay back and shoot, or run up and flank. Try to make it so you're adding sneak damage, or you ain't doin' squat!
Terms like SAD and MAD were created by optimizers to label classes by how easy it is to "optimize" their ability scores. The problem is, what ability score a particular class needs is relative to play-style.
A Fighter is a MAD class!
A Fighter Needs STR: STR directly effects a Fighter's ability to hit things, which is wjat a Fighter does best.
A Fighter Needs DEX: A Fighter can wear full plate, true, but a 3rd level a Fighter can wear a breastplate without losing movement. That's a great reason to play a lighter armoured Fighter at low levels. A high Dex will keep his AC up at low levels. Even if he switches to full plate a 7th, a Fighter in mithral full plate has a max Dex to AC of +7.
A Fighter Needs CON: Con = Hp. A Fighter needs all the Hp he can get. 'nuff said.
A Fighter Needs INT: With the worst skill point progression in the game, and the worst class skill list, a Fighter needs all the skill points he can get if he wants to be useful outside of combat.
A Fighter Needs WIS: Low Will saves and high damage output makes the fighter a prime target for Charms and Compulsions, not to mention every other debilitating Will save spell.
A Fighter doesn't need CHA. Unless he's the face, he can dump this one.
Similarly:
A Fighter is a SAD class.
A Fighter needs the Str to hit things, and the Con to survive hits. Armor takes care of AC, and you don't need mental stats to hit things.
A Ranger is a SAD class.
A Ranger needs Str and Dex to hit with his bow; well, to hit his non-favored enemies. He doesn't need Con because he doesn't get hit. He doesn't need more Wis than items can easily provide. He has good skills, so he doesn't deed Int.
A Paladin is a SAD class.
A Pally needs Str to hit things; well, non-evil things. He needs Cha for Hp, saves and abilities. Armor takes care of AC, Cha takes care of Hp, he's got a good class skill list, if not many skill points, and he has good will saves.
A Monk is a SAD class.
A Monk needs Str to hit things, and Wis for AC and abilities. He's got good skills, so he doesn't need Int.
You may have noticed all these "SAD" classes have two abilities, rather than a SINGLE ABILITY DEPENDENCY. Well, NO class needs only one ability. A 7 Dex 7 Con Wizard won't survive past 1st level.
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Idk the +1 to hit +1 to AC +1 to Saves is pretty good. Since I'm not going to have high strength what is the most effective way to deal good damage without stealing all of my feats? Should I just go dervish dance?
Sneak Attack gives a nice damage boost. The main problem is hitting. Flank as often as possible. Use a short sword and a darkwood shield. It's not the best way to deal damage, but it costs no feats.
Two-handed weapon or two weapon fighting deal more damage, but they need either high strength or many feats.
Terms like SAD and MAD were created by optimizers to label classes by how easy it is to "optimize" their ability scores. The problem is, what ability score a particular class needs is relative to play-style.
A Fighter is a MAD class!
A Fighter Needs STR: STR directly effects a Fighter's ability to hit things, which is wjat a Fighter does best.
A Fighter Needs DEX: A Fighter can wear full plate, true, but a 3rd level a Fighter can wear a breastplate without losing movement. That's a great reason to play a lighter armoured Fighter at low levels. A high Dex will keep his AC up at low levels. Even if he switches to full plate a 7th, a Fighter in mithral full plate has a max Dex to AC of +7.
A Fighter Needs CON: Con = Hp. A Fighter needs all the Hp he can get. 'nuff said.
A Fighter Needs INT: With the worst skill point progression in the game, and the worst class skill list, a Fighter needs all the skill points he can get if he wants to be useful outside of combat.
A Fighter Needs WIS: Low Will saves and high damage output makes the fighter a prime target for Charms and Compulsions, not to mention every other debilitating Will save spell.
A Fighter doesn't need CHA. Unless he's the face, he can dump this one.
Similarly:
A Fighter is a SAD class.
A Fighter needs the Str to hit things, and the Con to survive hits. Armor takes care of AC, and you don't need mental stats to hit things.
A Ranger is a SAD class.
A Ranger needs Str and Dex to hit with his bow; well, to hit his non-favored enemies. He doesn't need Con because he doesn't get hit. He doesn't need more Wis than items can easily provide. He has good skills, so he doesn't deed Int.
A Paladin is a SAD class.
A Pally needs Str to hit things; well, non-evil things. He needs Cha for Hp, saves and abilities. Armor takes care of AC, Cha takes care of Hp, he's got a good class skill list, if not many skill points, and he has good will saves.
A Monk is a SAD class.
A Monk needs Str to hit things, and Wis for AC and...
You can't use magical items to my knowledge to have the ability to cast spells. SAD doesn't mean that all other skils are dump rather it means that they're not boosted to make the character effective. None of those are SAD classes, casters such as sorcerers, wizards, summoners, and witches are SAD classes. You're right they're never going to dump dex or con but they will dump strength always and perhaps wisdom and/or charisma. Classes such as rangers have a problem, they can only dump cha and when they do it makes it harder to tame animals as well. So since they have to spread their points out farther because of the limitations they have, they will never be as effective as perhaps a fighter. Simply because the fighter has two dump stats and two atr he needs to focus on while a ranger has one dump stat and three atr he needs to focus on. Once a SAD character hits 18 for his PB he will dump the rest into con just because there is nowhere better to put it.
I agree that you'll have a lousy ranger with those stats. I'd go with the swashbuckler rogue, unless you really need trapfinding. If that's the case, you'll have to wait and take d. dance at 5th.
S 8, D 17, C 13, I 10, W 10, Ch 7, for a total of S 6, D 21, C 13, I 10, W 10, Ch 5.
I frown on low int. builds for rogues. Your skills are too important, at least in my games. Get those 8 points per level, and don't forget Use Magic Device. Even with your awful charisma, it's good to have. Your casters aren't going to have lots of bonus spells to cast on you, so you'll want to get a wand or 2, eventually.
Take scimitar and weapon finesse at 1st, then dervish dance at 3rd. That would work well, since small characters don't do a lot of damage, but adding your dex mod to damage at 3rd will help a lot, and the higher crit range will help a little, too. You're too small and weak for TWF, and that takes a lot of feats to be effective, anyway. Bump your dex at 4th, and you'll be hitting for +6 to hit and damage before any other modifiers. Use a crossbow, too (ignore your strength penalty that way).
I wouldn't usually take magical talent for a trait, but for a goblin rogue character, it would work great for acid splash ranged sneak attacks. Ranged touch + small size + high dex + no SR + no save + sneak damage makes it good for little rogues. You can't add sneak damage if you don't hit.
For the other trait, I'd take the one that adds +1 to will saves (I forgot the name). You'll need it sometime.
Stay back and shoot, or run up and flank. Try to make it so you're adding sneak damage, or you ain't doin' squat!
Would a Hobgoblin Ninja be good? That is with DD?
Let me hear your way of making MAD characters effective. Also do you know a couple of ways to get my movement up on a halfling?
My assertion that MAD doesn't exist is not only a hard pill to swallow for some, but doesn't directly answer your question.
Basically, any character can either put all their points into one stat, to be very effective at one thing, or divide their stats to be increasingly less effective at increasingly more things.
This is true whether you have 10 points or 30.
Just because a character has many options doesn't mean you need to advance them all or advance the options you do pick evenly. Since this limitation applies to all characters more or less evenly, it doesn't matter how many points you have, you'll still be balanced among other characters in your party.
A Fighter who dumps his mental stats might out damage your Archer Ranger, but your Ranger will have the skills and spells for out utility both in an out of combat the Fighter can't match. On the other hand, a Spelless Ranger sacrifices utility for increased effectiveness in other areas.
IMO, the only characters that are truly MAD or SAD, are the Wizard and Monk. The Wizard gets more versatility out of one stat than any other class, and the Monk, well my last argument was a little thin. A Monk does need Con, putting him at three stats vs. two for every other core class.
Moving on, movement speed is a tricky thing to increase, I only know of three ways to do it. One is Boots of Striding and Springing; a little expensive for low level characters, and it uses a magic item slot. Second is a class dip. A level in Barbarian, or any class that will give the Travel Domain (Cleric, Druid, Inquisitor). Third is the less optimal Fleet feat.
The first two, are the most bang for what you give up, but they're also hardest to utilize at low levels.
Let me hear your way of making MAD characters effective. Also do you know a couple of ways to get my movement up on a halfling?My assertion that MAD doesn't exist is not only a hard pill to swallow for some, but doesn't directly answer your question.
Basically, any character can either put all their points into one stat, to be very effective at one thing, or divide their stats to be increasingly less effective at increasingly more things.
This is true whether you have 10 points or 30.
Just because a character has many options doesn't mean you need to advance them all or advance the options you do pick evenly. Since this limitation applies to all characters more or less evenly, it doesn't matter how many points you have, you'll still be balanced among other characters in your party.
A Fighter who dumps his mental stats might out damage your Archer Ranger, but your Ranger will have the skills and spells for out utility both in an out of combat the Fighter can't match. On the other hand, a Spelless Ranger sacrifices utility for increased effectiveness in other areas.
IMO, the only characters that are truly MAD or SAD, are the Wizard and Monk. The Wizard gets more versatility out of one stat than any other class, and the Monk, well my last argument was a little thin. A Monk does need Con, putting him at three stats vs. two for every other core class.
Moving on, movement speed is a tricky thing to increase, I only know of three ways to do it. One is Boots of Striding and Springing; a little expensive for low level characters, and it uses a magic item slot. Second is a class dip. A level in Barbarian, or any class that will give the Travel Domain (Cleric, Druid, Inquisitor). Third is the less optimal Fleet feat.
The first two, are the most bang for what you give up, but they're also hardest to utilize at low levels.
Thanks for being patient with me I guess I was just looking at classes specializing at what they do best. Thanks for your input I appreciate it.