| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
First off let me say that I am very aware that we are playing pathfinder. This is not D&D 3.5. That being said, I am also aware that pathfinder borrowed a lot from 3.5 to become what it is.
I am hoping for some kind of ruling or link to ruling regarding sneak attack damage and ranged spells. We are getting knee deep in high level stuff and a player just brought in an arcane trickster. What he does is pop an improved invis and then let loose scorched rays.
The (3) rays do 4d6 fire damage per and with a 5d6 sneak attack its right around 100 points of damage per round. Granted he has to hit (a touch ac with no dex) +2 for being invis. A lot of monsters have SR, I get all that. I could also make monsters that are immune to sneak attack damage and nerf him hard, but that would not be fair.
3.5 D&D had a volley rule
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a
I do not see anything like this in path finder. The closest I can see is a ruling from the arcane trickster and surprise spells. I quote "The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast."
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy88yj/faq#v5748eaic9o2r
They rule that you only get sneak attack damage for one missile. This is inline with the 3.5 volley rules.
Hoping someone chimes in here.. and thanks.
"The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast."
What's the confusion?
Edit: Nevermind, I see what the confusion is. You're wondering what the ruling is about Sneak Attack, which while Surprise Spells is similar, Sneak Attack doesn't have (or at least if it does, it's not easily found) wording about its interaction with spells. Hmm.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Surprise spell is different than a normal spell with a ranged attack roll like scorching ray since it allows you to sneak attack without needing an attack roll. Personally I think the once per spell rule was poorly thought out -- if it was once per target I could understand a bit better but there is no reason to allow fireball to deal sneak attack to 20 creatures and not let magic missile deal sneak attack to 5 creatures -- especially when burning hands can sneak attack 6.
As of right now there is no 'volley rule' in pathfinder -- if it has an attack roll and you meet the requirements to sneak attack you get the sneak attack damage on each attack roll that you make while meeting the requirements.
I completely get the difference between surprise spell and applying sneak attack damage to damage causing spells that you have to roll to attack. I was just using surprise spell as a Pathfinder example to show sneak attack damage only being rolled ONCE per spell.
It looks like we play it as written. I don't want to house rule this and nerf the PC. Thanks for clarifying.
One last go at this ...
It looks just like a slight oversight on the designers part. 3.5 Wizards implemented a Volley rule that pretty much boils down to this. With the Manyshot feat, you apply only sneak attack damage once. With a spell that requires multiple attack rolls (bus still is just ONE Spell) apply the sneak attack damage once.
Pathfinder commented in the manyshot feat "Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow" - from the SRD.
There is no mention of this in Pathfinder with regard to spells. Hoping a dev gives me 20 seconds on this :)
Thanks,
Not to be rude but you might want to try a forum search on your own -- this isn't the first time this topic has come up (more like simply the first time this week) and as such there have been extensive and exhaustive discussions on this before. Finding some of those old threads might be enlightening to you (or more than likely will simply confuse the heck out of you with their esoteric nature and absolute inanity -- I'm serious some of us here could probably use our posts on this forum as our thesis for a doctorate in "Complete and total baffling BS that people have spent WAY too much time and energy on").
We've gone round and round on this in several discussions, without an "official" answer.
I say be generous to the trickster. Give it SA damage on every ray of a rolled attack, like scorching ray. Give it SA damage on every missile, once it reaches the capstone. The spells all go off at one moment, so targets denied dex get a little something extra from the trickster.
It's a weak class, otherwise.
People bemoan the weakness of the class until double-digit levels, so make it deadly fun for the lucky few who get that far.
Flame suit on! :-)
The trickster gets the wizard BAB and can't cast spells in armor without feats (which are few and far between). It can't handle melee very well at all. No better than a wizard, and probably with fewer hit points.
It can't do the rogue stuff as well as a straight rogue, either. What it does well is magic-aided rogue stuff, support and out-of-combat utility, and the occasional sneak attack added to damage spells.
For me, the fun part of the class would be sneaking into the BBEG's stronghold undetected, then taking him by surprise with the whole party busting through the door I de-trapped and left open just as I get my one sneak attack spell off (and hopefully hit).
A few more d6's isn't as impressive as it sounds, but it will take out some mooks, and soften up some bigger targets (that don't make their saves or aren't immune) for when the real spellcasters show up.
Letting the AT add 2-7 d6 on a sneak attack with each ray that both qualifies as a sneak attack and manages to hit on the rare occasion he can make both happen is a fair reward for his effort, and not overpowered at all. It's like ranged legerdemain; really nice, if and when you actually get to use it.
The tricky spells ability helps in this regard, but you don't get it until higher levels, where your utility starts to match the bard's, but he's been useful since level 1.
|
I would say he gets SA on every Ray. It's actually not that big a deal when you think about it.
12D6 from the Ray plus 15D6 from the SA. 27D6. Impressive for as long as he has spells.
A TWF Rogue flanking gets 4 or 5 attacks in a round (assuming ITWF, GTWF, and haste which I would expect him to have)
Assuming shortswords that is 5D6+10 (with a wimpy 14 Str) plus 25D6 SA.
So 30D6+10 damage not limited by spells.
Then take into account a Ninja who can run around with Improved Invis (assuming not changed come release) he gets to atack all as flatfooted and +2 to hit and also can attack the same as Rogue but also can use a Ki point for yet another attack (so an extra 6D6+2) or Ki for flurry of shurikens.
|
Scorching Ray is not a volley and gets sneak attack on all rays just as an archer rogue with base attack 11 would get sneak attack on all 3 arrows.
Actually, Scorching Ray is used as an example of exactly what a Volley is.
That said, I don't think "volleys" should even exist within the game, and am houseruling the idea out :P