I saw a player on another board claim that he's able to be a Mystic Theurge at level 3. Somehow it involved Heighten Spell and Magical Lineage. Does this even begin to be legal?
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You need at least 3 ranks in two specific skills to enter Mystic Theurge, and being able to cast 2nd level spells from divine and arcane spell lists. The first one means you can't be mystic theurge until level 4, the second one means you need to be at least level 7 : Wiz 3/Cler 3/Mystic Theurge 1 for example.
So if I'm not mistaken right now, it's a no-no except DM fiat.
What it comes down to is that to cast 2nd level spells, you need 2nd level spell slots in two classes, something that trick attempts to bypass...and fails.
It can't happen. Now if you provide the link I can correct the poster since I am bored and up for a good debate.
Try not to give the guy a hard time- it's in a thread to join a PbP game, and this guy just posted his character up. (And to add to it all, it's a svirfneblin, which I had never seen in Pathfinder until now, and good god that race is not at all meant to be balanced with core races!) I was pretty sure the build was bogus (and the more I looked, the more bogus it became) but I figured I'd ask here just to make sure I didn't miss something HUGE.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/connection/recruitmen tInDarkestTimesPbpHomebrew
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You've got yourself a grade A munchkin there. Give the boot and don't look back. You're just going to have trouble otherwise.
Short answer no.
Long answer: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Ok, race wise yeah not a PC race without serious Pathfinderization, and even then maybe not... for example, Drow are ok in Pathfinder for a level 1 game, Drow Nobles are not.
As for the character stats, I see two options.
1. Munchkin with no regard for the rules and no brain to be subtle about it.
2. Player who does not understand the rules and made some serious mistakes in character creation.
I'd say find out which of the two options your player is, if it's #1 laugh at them and point out how they give munchkins a bad name (whether you agree with munchkins or not (I for one hate them, I'm a rules laywer lol), a "good" munchkin can break/abuse the rules and the GM doesn't have a clue... they are the most dangerous munchkins, a munchkin that fails insults them)... if it's #2, help them to make their character so that they can become the Mystic Theurge ASAP for the concept.
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Ok, race wise yeah not a PC race without serious Pathfinderization, and even then maybe not... for example, Drow are ok in Pathfinder for a level 1 game, Drow Nobles are not.
Even drow are not a PC race. I'm not just saying 'technically'. They are, by the rules as RAW, not available for player characters. It's GM fiat that lets players dip into the Bestiary and it should not be a default assumption that anyone is allowed to grab 0-HD monster races.
You've got yourself a grade A munchkin there. Give the boot and don't look back. You're just going to have trouble otherwise.
I agree. He is trying to skirt the rules with this thread to find out how to do it.
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You've got yourself a grade A munchkin there. Give the boot and don't look back. You're just going to have trouble otherwise.I agree. He is trying to skirt the rules with this thread to find out how to do it.
This dude is so funny, calling on other players to say they suck and don't know anything, when he's himself trying to win at D&D while not even knowing (or hoping the DM will not know) basic stuffs like "maximum ranks : character level".
Also : "Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level."
This means it takes a 2nd level slot to cast a heigtened to 2nd level 1st level spell. This metamagic don't "increase" the level of a spell like other metamagic feats, it "changes" the global level. Technically, Magical Knack don't even work with Heighten spell.
Also : svirfneblin isn't a balanced player race. The abilities made me cringe when I read them for the first time when the pathfinder bestiary came out. At best, it should have a +1 level adjustement - baaaaaaaa^10d idea for a mystic theurge. Should I remind you that in the game you are intending to play, "the only racial prejudice remaining at this late point in culture is against monstrous creatures and unusual races like the drow" ?
Also : you can probably dump the guy, you're not losing anything. He's obviously bad at rules and using diplomacy with fellow players when they don't go the way he wants. Looks more like a nice munchkin rollplayer to me. He could end up to be "this player" always vocal and annoying about the rules even though his knowledge is based on whatever theorycrafting would give him an advantage.
If you think he is ready to play and is a fine guy, then simply ask him to go LEGAL on his build, and explain him how to do it, why he's wrong and what this race implies in terms of crunch and fluff maluses. This is : level adjustment (and yes it exists in Pathfinder, in a different way that 3.5) and risks of being not very well welcomed in any place. If you need help, you have one of the biggest Rules Lawyers Agency (c) here to lend a hand and show the guy the truthful, sad light of reality...
EDIT : Also, I didn't see the "4 Strength" part before the DM brought it up. Made me throw some coke from the nose. xD
Ok, race wise yeah not a PC race without serious Pathfinderization, and even then maybe not... for example, Drow are ok in Pathfinder for a level 1 game, Drow Nobles are not.Even drow are not a PC race. I'm not just saying 'technically'. They are, by the rules as RAW, not available for player characters. It's GM fiat that lets players dip into the Bestiary and it should not be a default assumption that anyone is allowed to grab 0-HD monster races.
Well, yes but I will point out that a GM can just as easily say no halflings. ALL races, even the base ones, are subject to GM fiat. My point was that drow are ok level wise in a level 1 game that allows non-core races, Svirfelbindeepgnomeswhatever are not.
You've got yourself a grade A munchkin there. Give the boot and don't look back. You're just going to have trouble otherwise.I agree. He is trying to skirt the rules with this thread to find out how to do it.
Holy crap. In the PbP thread he was trying to make it sound like he was using Sorcerer as a "balancing factor" because he knew the build was cheesy... it turns out that was yet another layer of munchkinism. Wow. I'm glad I asked.
Holy crap. In the PbP thread he was trying to make it sound like he was using Sorcerer as a "balancing factor" because he knew the build was cheesy... it turns out that was yet another layer of munchkinism. Wow. I'm glad I asked.You've got yourself a grade A munchkin there. Give the boot and don't look back. You're just going to have trouble otherwise.I agree. He is trying to skirt the rules with this thread to find out how to do it.
I am glad I could be of assistance. :)
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I have only seen one character from 3.x that had lvls in celric and then also have lvls in mystic thuerge.
and it was a realms npc, and on top of that it was a dragon.
lvl 3 dragon arcane spells and cleric class lvls to qualify.
can a pc or a standard npc do this?
no, with out having a natural racial spellcasting ability for all lvls required, no this is not doable.
and this would be pushing it in other details...
Spell-like abilities don't meet the prerequisites, but racial spellcasting ability like a dragon's should. I agree, it's hard to imagine a PC race that would qualify.
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some things that are ringing alarm bells for me are;
1) 30 base speed, shouldn't that be 20? unless svirfneblin get a speed boost like goblins or kobolds that i am not aware of
2) he is using WIS for his sorcerer casting stat, i wanna know how that is legal
3) 4 str, double bad for this, god oh god why would you do that? reduced speed when carrying 14lb. secondly, i thought the lowest you could drop a stat in point buy was 7, but he appears to have dropped it to 6
4) look at his AC, he has not included the size mod, and has added in mage armor, without having the spell or a wand of it to keep it up
i...i don't think i want to look at it any more, there just seems to be so much wrong with it. I'm not calculating HP or skills, and i just noticed he hasn't included the size mod on his CMB and CMD again, stoplookingstoplookingstoplookingstoplooking
some things that are ringing alarm bells for me are;
some cheese
See? Exactly how I felt. At first there were some alarm bells, like, "Hmm, I don't think you can do that..." and seriously, the more and more I looked, the more and more things jumped right out at me. I seriously think this guy just posted the cheesiest, most broken, most innocently-played-cheating-attempt I've ever seen.
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2) he is using WIS for his sorcerer casting stat, i wanna know how that is legal
3) 4 str, double bad for this, god oh god why would you do that? reduced speed when carrying 14lb. secondly, i thought the lowest you could drop a stat in point buy was 7, but he appears to have dropped it to 6
A sorcerer bloodline variant from Ultimate Magic allows the use of wisdom as your spellcasting stat.
You are right about the 4 Str, something I overlooked again even if it made me laugh : it shouldn't even be possible. The worst you can have with a race like demi-ogre with -4 to Int is 5 to the stat, and Svirfneblin only has -2 as a racial malus.
The problem here isn't the guy trying to cheat the system (well, actually, it is too...), it's the way he's insulting the DM's and his fellow player's intelligence by sneaking innocently Burj Dubai-sized b~&&+%%* right under their nose.
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You are right about the 4 Str, something I overlooked again even if it made me laugh : it shouldn't even be possible. The worst you can have with a race like demi-ogre with -4 to Int is 5 to the stat, and Svirfneblin only has -2 as a racial malus.
no, no with a -4 to a stat you could totally get 3 to a stat since point buy lets you go as low as 7, but still that's a -4 modifier to which i say "whyyyy?"
EDIT:
A sorcerer bloodline variant from Ultimate Magic allows the use of wisdom as your spellcasting stat.
ahh i found it now, damn, that seems a little broken, but i guess it allows for a more effective Mystic Theurge using cleric/druid with a sorcerer, but still this guy is just cheesing it, and he's cheesing it with incorrect stats
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You are right about the 4 Str, something I overlooked again even if it made me laugh : it shouldn't even be possible. The worst you can have with a race like demi-ogre with -4 to Int is 5 to the stat, and Svirfneblin only has -2 as a racial malus.no, no with a -4 to a stat you could totally get 3 to a stat since point buy lets you go as low as 7, but still that's a -4 modifier to which i say "whyyyy?"
Oh gosh you are right, guess our 5 Int/5 Wis/13 Cha half-ogre barbarian was a bit inclined at creation to at least have enough points to be considered conscious of his existence. :D
The funny part comes when the guy looks at his inventory (ridiculously empty for adventuring btw) and sees he's alrady in medium charge without even having an armor or a simple weapon. Or Ray of enfeeblement, even with the save made. Or the fatigued condition after a day of walk or a bad night... 8D
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some things that are ringing alarm bells for me are;
1) 30 base speed, shouldn't that be 20? unless svirfneblin get a speed boost like goblins or kobolds that i am not aware of
2) he is using WIS for his sorcerer casting stat, i wanna know how that is legal
3) 4 str, double bad for this, god oh god why would you do that? reduced speed when carrying 14lb. secondly, i thought the lowest you could drop a stat in point buy was 7, but he appears to have dropped it to 6
4) look at his AC, he has not included the size mod, and has added in mage armor, without having the spell or a wand of it to keep it up
i...i don't think i want to look at it any more, there just seems to be so much wrong with it. I'm not calculating HP or skills, and i just noticed he hasn't included the size mod on his CMB and CMD again, stoplookingstoplookingstoplookingstoplooking
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/svirfneblin
You are dead on about the speed.
There is a UM thing about non-charisma based Sorcerers, but I don't remember off the top of my head.
This is the kind of guy I made the RAI thread about...kick to the curb.
Well, the DM of the group shut down his Mystic Theurge build, so he re-posted the same character as a straight wizard, Svirfneblin and all.
I have a feeling this is gonna be one of "those" games... >.>
Just say no to munchkins
You've got yourself a grade A munchkin there. Give the boot and don't look back. You're just going to have trouble otherwise.
Totally agreed. This has bad omen written all over it. He starts with a backdoor to get into a PrC way too early - this stuff works when you can cheat a computer, but not with real people, but there's also the fact that he wants to play a svirfneblin (more powerful than other races), goes way beyond ridiculous powergaming with his stats AND cheats with his stats by using too many points (unless there are non-standard rules used, his stats translate into 19 points for PF purchase, when 15 were stated).
And then he tries to sell it all as intentionally crippling his character to do the GM a favour?
Boot out of the group/decline application, put on ignore list and count your blessings. :P
Oh, man. I just let him have it. I hope that doesn't get me booted from the group, but I guess I'd rather get booted than play with someone like that.
Oh, and Umbral Reaver, I used your term in there too. I hope you don't mind.
Nice rant, you did however leave out the SR of 11+ class level that race also gets.
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Just decline your application to the game, or link this topic by mail to the DM. Or link directly in the application topic ?
Don't get into something that you will regret, it isn't worth it. You'd better leave now or/and explain the case to the DM, or he will soon or later find himself with a problem and it will annoy everyone.
Note the new wizard sheet it still full of s#&&. (Oh yeah, pun !)
He couldn't even lift all his -basic- equipment, and it doesn't count basic adventurer gear. Oh, and 4 Charisma with an unusual race in a setting where really unusual races are ostracized ?
Golden Willy Wonka ticket to social pain... which could be an interesting roleplaying stance more than a simple way to munchkin the system with a good roleplayer, but apparences aren't helping the guy's case at all.
Edit : Woot, nice rant indead. If he insists and asks for answers, link to this topic (to the DM by e-mail as to avoid forum drama would be a way more mature stance, but I admit my inner self is craving for a good ol' munchkin public execution). Explain to the DM you're only trying to help him, which is exactly why you came here at first : no one likes a munchkin in a game he could play in, especially when the DM doesn't seem to see how much the guy is making a fool of him. You're doing everyone a favor in your future group by exposing him.
some things that are ringing alarm bells for me are;
1) 30 base speed, shouldn't that be 20? unless svirfneblin get a speed boost like goblins or kobolds that i am not aware of
2) he is using WIS for his sorcerer casting stat, i wanna know how that is legal
3) 4 str, double bad for this, god oh god why would you do that? reduced speed when carrying 14lb. secondly, i thought the lowest you could drop a stat in point buy was 7, but he appears to have dropped it to 6
4) look at his AC, he has not included the size mod, and has added in mage armor, without having the spell or a wand of it to keep it up
i...i don't think i want to look at it any more, there just seems to be so much wrong with it. I'm not calculating HP or skills, and i just noticed he hasn't included the size mod on his CMB and CMD again, stoplookingstoplookingstoplookingstoplooking
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/svirfneblin
You are dead on about the speed.
There is a UM thing about non-charisma based Sorcerers, but I don't remember off the top of my head.
This is the kind of guy I made the RAI thread about...kick to the curb.
I would agree with you 100% for someone like this.
While I don't like people talking behind my back, I am still going to answer all the questions directly, so you don't have to guess at things. And I don't appreciate slander. :)
basic stuffs like "maximum ranks : character level".
Yes, the actual character build was supposed to be sorcerer 2/cleric 1/Mystic Theurge X. This is evidenced by the comment made about how it would be one spell level behind on both classes, since sorcerer is already 1 level behind + the cleric level, makes that one spell level, and the two sorcerer levels make the cleric one behind as well.
1) 30 base speed, shouldn't that be 20? unless svirfneblin get a speed boost like goblins or kobolds that i am not aware of
2) he is using WIS for his sorcerer casting stat, i wanna know how that is legal
3) 4 str, double bad for this, god oh god why would you do that? reduced speed when carrying 14lb. secondly, i thought the lowest you could drop a stat in point buy was 7, but he appears to have dropped it to 6
4) look at his AC, he has not included the size mod, and has added in mage armor, without having the spell or a wand of it to keep it up
1) I've never played a small character before, so I was not aware that there was a toggle for that on the character creator
2) Empyreal Bloodline from Celestial, to get away from MAD
3) 7 from point buy - 2 from racial - 1 from middle aged penalties = 4
4) Usually I take a lesser extend rod and mage armor, but that was a mistake on the character creation, since I have to do items manually
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I am personally okay with criticism, but I'd prefer it if you inquired on something before you automatically assume it is cheating, like the strength thing. There are certain things that I may have incorrect, because of how my old group used to play it (items creation feats lets you take things at half price if you can make them), but I'm pretty sure that's legitimate.
While I don't like people talking behind my back, I am still going to answer all the questions directly, so you don't have to guess at things. And I don't appreciate slander. :)
basic stuffs like "maximum ranks : character level".Yes, the actual character build was supposed to be sorcerer 2/cleric 1/Mystic Theurge X. This is evidenced by the comment made about how it would be one spell level behind on both classes, since sorcerer is already 1 level behind + the cleric level, makes that one spell level, and the two sorcerer levels make the cleric one behind as well.
1) 30 base speed, shouldn't that be 20? unless svirfneblin get a speed boost like goblins or kobolds that i am not aware of
2) he is using WIS for his sorcerer casting stat, i wanna know how that is legal
3) 4 str, double bad for this, god oh god why would you do that? reduced speed when carrying 14lb. secondly, i thought the lowest you could drop a stat in point buy was 7, but he appears to have dropped it to 6
4) look at his AC, he has not included the size mod, and has added in mage armor, without having the spell or a wand of it to keep it up
1) I've never played a small character before, so I was not aware that there was a toggle for that on the character creator
2) Empyreal Bloodline from Celestial, to get away from MAD
3) 7 from point buy - 2 from racial - 1 from middle aged penalties = 4
4) Usually I take a lesser extend rod and mage armor, but that was a mistake on the character creation, since I have to do items manually
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I am personally okay with criticism, but I'd prefer it if you inquired on something before you automatically assume it is cheating, like the strength thing. There are certain things that I may have incorrect, because of how my old group used to play it (items creation feats lets you take things at half price if you can make them), but I'm pretty sure that's legitimate.
Cheating or not (your early entry into MT is not legal, period), what you were attempting is still absolute 100% cheese. I'm a fairly heavy optimizer, but anyone who proposed a character like yours in my game would get laughed out the door and never allowed back in.
I.... could respond, here or in the PbP thread, but I really don't think it's worth it. My point was never just to nag about whether something is cheesy or munchkiny- I think by this point that's become very, very apparent. I can see, Retech, that you put a lot of thought into this. I can also see that you made quite a few mistakes, some of which you are or are not willing to man up on. In any case, I've made my opinion on all of this clear. Good luck to you in whatever campaign you end up playing this monstrosity.
I.... could respond, here or in the PbP thread, but I really don't think it's worth it. My point was never just to nag about whether something is cheesy or munchkiny- I think by this point that's become very, very apparent. I can see, Retech, that you put a lot of thought into this. I can also see that you made quite a few mistakes, some of which you are or are not willing to man up on. In any case, I've made my opinion on all of this clear. Good luck to you in whatever campaign you end up playing this monstrosity.
I just want to thank you, because I didn't fully realize how powerful or cheesy the character was. (This is not sarcastic btw)
You've probably saved me from a lot more if I had applied somewhere else with it, and I want to thank you for your honesty and your criticism. My characters are usually not cheesy or munchkiny, but I thought that I should have made it overpowered because of the initial post about dealing with over CRed monsters, but I think I took it too far.
So yeah, thanks for putting me back on the right track. Not just you, but the others that commented. While I don't like being judged right away as a cheesemonger or a munchkin, I can understand why you said those things. It wasn't fun to read those comments, but I had to sometime.