I'm trying to build a grappling barbarian, but I don't quite understand how it would work with natural attacks such as his Animal Fury or Lesser Beast Totem rage powers.
Example 1: Round 1, the barbarian successfully get into a grapple (thanks to his +4 from Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple). Round 2, he has to maintain. Animal Fury states that you get a free bite attack before you do a grapple maintain, and if you hit you get a +2 on the maintain. He's got the Greater Grapple feat, so it's a move action to maintain. So, round 2, he does his move action to maintain and gets a free bite first. Along with the maintain, he can do damage using a natural attack. So he could bite again. For his next action, he can maintain again thanks to Greater Grapple. So he gets his free bite first, then his natural weapon damage for another bite. So he's essentially biting four times a round. (Do you think Mike Tyson had this feat?)
Does that sound right? I know there had been some question about whether the Animal Fury bite attack could be considered a primary attack or not, but my understanding is that the Bestiary rules prevail and it IS a primary attack, unless you're attacking with a normal melee weapon first.
Example 2: Identical to example 1, except the barbarian chooses to use his claw ability from Lesser Beast Totem as his natural attack damage after maintaining the grapple. Does he get to use both claw attacks, or just one?
Two things
1. I think you can only maintain once in a round since you have already done so on your turn you cant get an even better grip.
2. since it is at a BAB -5 i would say the bite is secondary.
that being said you could maintain/bite then claw as your standard.
Two things
1. I think you can only maintain once in a round since you have already done so on your turn you cant get an even better grip.
2. since it is at a BAB -5 i would say the bite is secondary.
that being said you could maintain/bite then claw as your standard.
Re: 1. The Greater Grapple feat states that you can make two grapple checks per round, essentially you could make two maintains. And I believe the point of a maintain isn't necessarily to get a better hold unless you pin your opponent. It's simply to maintain your current hold while allowing you to do other stuff, like move, tie them up, or do damage.
Re: 2. Numerous other posts here on the boards have pointed out that the Bestiary and later errata have stated that bite natural attacks are always considered primary attacks. I would assume this is the case with the Animal Fury attack, and it's only at -5 when used as a secondary attack (i.e., if you're using a regular weapon as your primary attack.). This is implied by the description in any case, since it says you get the -5 "if" used as part of a full attack--not necessarily if it's made as your only/primary attack.
Re: the claw attack, would you say I could claw twice or just once?
Yeah i missread Greater Grapple so yes you could bite grapple attack twice a round. As far as the bite since it is the only natweapon at the time of taking it its primary dont know what affect it has on the claws can look it up.
And yes you could claw twice since you can grapple twice.
(Though dont know anywhere where its says that bites are always primary. However in your case it is.)
Re: the claw attack, would you say I could claw twice or just once?
It's a bit unclear (to me, anyways), if you are asking whether one successful grapple check gives you TWO claw attacks. To make it perfectly clear, this is what the PRD says:
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
This means you can either do bite damage or claw damage (from one claw). In either case it is not an attack (per se) like the bite from Animal Fury since you do not roll an attack roll, just automatically do damage.
This might be a bit pedantic, but our group has one of these barbarians, and we have had to go over the grapple rules several times to be sure we are doing this right. We also had a big discussion whether the barbarian got two "free" Animal Fury bites or one per turn, and ended up on two (like you)
Also, I totally agree in regards to the bite from Animal Fury having full BAB when part of a maintain action, that seems to be what's implied by the power.
It's a bit unclear (to me, anyways), if you are asking whether one successful grapple check gives you TWO claw attacks. To make it perfectly clear, this is what the PRD says:
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.This means you can either do bite damage or claw damage (from one claw). In either case it is not an attack (per se) like the bite from Animal Fury since you do not roll an attack roll, just automatically do damage.
This might be a bit pedantic, but our group has one of these barbarians, and we have had to go over the grapple rules several times to be sure we are doing this right. We also had a big discussion whether the barbarian got two "free" Animal Fury bites or one per turn, and ended up on two (like you)
Also, I totally agree in regards to the bite from Animal Fury having full BAB when part of a maintain action, that seems to be what's implied by the power.
Yes, I was asking if a single successful grapple gives two claw attacks. Your reasoning makes sense, and it's stated in the description—you only get one attack. After all, you're trying to hold someone down, so it takes at least one hand to do that. The other hand could be freed to make the attack. I'm glad someone else has reached the same conclusions as me on this stuff. Now I just hope my GM agrees as well after I explain it to him!
No problem, I would have created this thread in a couple of days to check the same stuff. If you have any other issues as you level up, please post them, I'm sure our barbarian would be interested ;)
PS: You could tell your GM that another GM allows it (ie me).
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Short answer, no you do not get 2 bites + 2 Claws. Long answer on why is below.
Well let's take a look at the powers being used in this first.
Animal Fury (Ex): While raging, the barbarian gains a bite
attack. If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is
made at the barbarian’s full base attack bonus –5. If the bite
hits, it deals 1d4 points of damage (assuming the barbarian
is Medium; 1d3 points of damage if Small) plus half the
barbarian’s Strength modifier. A barbarian can make a bite
attack as part of the action to maintain or break free from a
grapple. This attack is resolved before the grapple check is
made. If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made by the
barbarian against the target this round are at a +2 bonus.
Well first we see that the Bite Attack requires an attack roll before you do the grapple check to maintain the grapple. So there is one bite CHANCE.
You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
Next we do the first grapple check which is a move action because of Greater Grapple and it will determine if you maintain this grapple.
If you succeed in this Grapple check you succeed in maintaining the grapple and you get one free action to either (to move, harm, or pin your opponent).(Maintaining a grapple is not a choice for a grapple check it's the result of a grapple check)
So let's say you have chosen to to harm the opponent with your natural attack.
You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus.
Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks)
Since you can only attack with a specific natural attack once per round, your damage from the maintain will be a Claw.
Now you have one more grapple check you can make this round if you choose to. If you succeed on this check you can (per the Greater grapple feat) choose to move, harm, or pin your opponent. It's a specific list of actions you can do with this grapple check so you cannot maintain the grapple again.
You can attempt to do Damage but since you've already used your bite attack and one claw attack and per the Grappled condition you currently have you cannot make that second claw attack either.
In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two
hands to perform.
Caveat; if you intend to use that second claw attack this round you will have to make every grapple check at -4 since you won't have both hands free.
Conclusion, at best you can get a Bite+Claw in damage unless you are willing to take a -4 to all your grapple checks that round in which case you would get a Bite+Claw+Claw.
A better option would be to:
Round 1: Attempt to grapple and succeed.
Round 2: Free Bite attack and then Grapple check and if you succeed maintain the grapple and go for the Pin. 2nd grapple check declare a tie up succeed and end the round.
Round 3: Either full attack the target or declare a Coup De Grace and kill it or move on to the next target.
natural attacks wrote:
You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus.
Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks)
This only says the extra attacks dont come from base attack bonus not from other thing such as feats.
I.E. A dragon has one bite as part of a full attack however he isn't limited to only making that bite once in teh total round if a creature allows an AoO he can still bite.
A grapple check is a reduced to a move action, you get to make two grapple checks now. The damage move part cannot be executed without a grapple check, which includes the maintain part. So a barb with animal fury:
round 1, attempts to grapple as normal. If he has a move action left, he can now bite at full bonus as a free action, then grapple attempt to damage pin or move. He may use a claw or a bite to deal the damage (this damage is not an attack, it is a representation of choking, shaking your head, whatever as you submit your opponent)
round 2 and onward, free bite attack at full base, move action grapple attempt. Standard action left, can do what you please, including free bite attack and grapple attempt.
It looks like a couple of other people have posted replies while I've been crafting this pedantic and detailed post. I think their ideas are correct and address the issue, but I'll post my lengthy reply anyway in case anyone is interested:
Mathwei, I disagree with your interpretation of maintaining and Greater Grapple. I think we need to establish what would happen with a normal grapple as a baseline. I'm going to quote the relevant rules from Grappling here:
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options... If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition... If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold... Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)...
The actions in question are Move, Damage, Pin, and Tie Up. So in summary, round 1 you start the grapple. Round 2 you have to make a grapple check to maintain. As part of the maintain check, you also get to either move, damage, pin, or tie up. If you choose to damage, you can do damage equivalent to one natural attack. Note that this is not an actual attack. It's just damage equivalent to one.
You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent),, but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
With Greater Grapple in round 2, you use your first move action to maintain the grapple, which entails any one of the free actions, including damage. Greater Grapple also allows you to make a second grapple check (to move, harm, or pin). So you could choose to damage a second time.
Are we in agreement so far? This is just standard grappling stuff, but I could be getting it wrong, which will change what's below. Now let's look at how the Barbarian's abilities modify this baseline.
Animal Fury (Ex): While raging, the barbarian gains a bite attack. If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at the barbarian’s full base attack bonus –5. If the bite hits, it deals 1d4 points of damage (assuming the barbarian is Medium; 1d3 points of damage if Small) plus half the barbarian’s Strength modifier. A barbarian can make a bite attack as part of the action to maintain or break free from a grapple. This attack is resolved before the grapple check is made. If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made by the barbarian against the target this round are at a +2 bonus.
Mathwei, I can see your point here. It specifically states that the bite is part of the maintain, with the modification that it is done BEFORE the grapple check. You could read that as implying that you could not then choose to bite again. However, what if you are trying to pin? Could you bite, grapple, and then pin? If the answer is yes, why couldn't you choose to damage instead of pin? My interpretation is that the barbarian's bite attack is an extra attack that helps him grapple. If he then chooses to do damage as part of his grapple, he should be able to do bite damage again, or at least do claw damage. Again, this is not an attack, it's just damage equivalent to one.
You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks).
As Talonhawke mentioned, this is referring to full attack actions, not additional attacks from feats, maneuvers, or special abilities. In this case, the barbarian has three natural attacks: a bite and two claws. They are all primary attacks. His additional attacks from having a high base attack bonus do not apply here. He gets three attacks per round at his full base attack bonus, regardless of whether he would otherwise get extra attacks or not.
In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform.
So the only thing limiting his natural attacks while grappling is the fact that he has to be using at least one hand to maintain the grapple. He still has the other hand free to attack with while grappling. Per Greater Grapple, he can make two grapple checks per round, each of which allows a damage action. This feat would allow him to use the same hand to do damage twice per round (again, they aren't attacks, just damage).
Edit: clarified that the damage from maintaining a grapple isn't an attack.
CURSE YOU, GUYS WHO CAN TYPE FASTER THAN ME!!!
You wrote a better post than me before I could post mine, daeruin, so I removed everything except:
"I can halfway see the argument with the two claws and a free hand, but it's moot since you can just use the first claw two times instead. Unless you have a set of rules which makes one of your hands better, in which case there is no reason to use the other. And it is never stated that you are using a specific hand for grappling, only that you cannot do two-handed actions."
"You are saying that the first grapple check, when it succeeds, maintains the grapple, therefore the second check does not get a bite attack. This is weird, because it creates a situation where the barbarian would get two bites if he failed on the first check, but one if he succeeds. I'm not saying this contradicts your ruling, only that it creates a weird situation where the damage output of two successful grapple checks is very similar to one failed and one successful, which doesn't sound right."
For all other things, I am totally behind daeruin.
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I personally prefer pedantic and detailed responses. If we are going to understand what each other is saying it helps to spell it out.
It looks like a couple of other people have posted replies while I've been crafting this pedantic and detailed post. I think their ideas are correct and address the issue, but I'll post my lengthy reply anyway in case anyone is interested:
Mathwei, I disagree with your interpretation of maintaining and Greater Grapple. I think we need to establish what would happen with a normal grapple as a baseline. I'm going to quote the relevant rules from Grappling here:
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options... If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition... If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold... Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)...
The actions in question are Move, Damage, Pin, and Tie Up. So in summary, round 1 you start the grapple. Round 2 you have to make a grapple check to maintain. As part of the maintain check, you also get to either move, damage, pin, or tie up. If you choose to damage, you can do damage equivalent to one natural attack. Note that this is not an actual attack. It's just damage equivalent to one.
You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent),, but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.With Greater Grapple in round 2, you use your first move action to maintain the grapple, which entails any one of the free actions, including damage. Greater Grapple also allows you to make a second grapple check (to move, harm, or pin). So you could choose to damage a second time.
Are we in agreement so far? This is just standard grappling stuff, but I could be getting it wrong, which will change what's below. Now let's look at how the Barbarian's abilities modify this baseline.
We are in agreement up to the point where I bolded and that's the assumption that needs to be changed.
You don't use your move action to maintain the grapple, you use it to make a grapple check and if that succeeds you maintain the grapple while doing one of the defined Grapple actions.Pedantic but important since Maintain is not an actual grapple action, just part of a standard grapple.
animal fury wrote:
Animal Fury (Ex): While raging, the barbarian gains a bite attack. If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at the barbarian’s full base attack bonus –5. If the bite hits, it deals 1d4 points of damage (assuming the barbarian is Medium; 1d3 points of damage if Small) plus half the barbarian’s Strength modifier. A barbarian can make a bite attack as part of the action to maintain or break free from a grapple. This attack is resolved before the grapple check is made. If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made by the barbarian against the target this round are at a +2 bonus.
Mathwei, I can see your point here. It specifically states that the bite is part of the maintain, with the modification that it is done BEFORE the grapple check. You could read that as implying that you could not then choose to bite again. However, what if you are trying to pin? Could you bite, grapple, and then pin? If the answer is yes, why couldn't you choose to damage instead of pin? My interpretation is that the barbarian's bite attack is an extra attack that helps him grapple. If he then chooses to do damage as part of his grapple, he should be able to do bite damage again, or at least do claw damage. Again, this is not an attack, it's just damage equivalent to one.
This is the second part of our difference. There is nothing in the description of this ability that says or implies that this is a free attack it only states that you CAN make this attack if you choose to if you want. But flatly by RAW if it doesn't state that it's a free or extra attack then it will take up that specific attack for the round.
natural attacks wrote:You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks).
As Talonhawke mentioned, this is referring to full attack actions, not additional attacks from feats, maneuvers, or special abilities. In this case, the barbarian has three natural attacks: a bite and two claws. They are all primary attacks. His additional attacks from having a high base attack bonus do not apply here. He gets three attacks per round at his full base attack bonus, regardless of whether he would otherwise get extra attacks or not.
Agreed, but look at this fact. Since a standard grapple check takes a standard action and a regular attack is a standard action too. This means any round that you grapple you shouldn't be able to attack. In compensation to this fact the actual attack is rolled into the grapple check to make grappling worthwhile to do. (This is RAI interpretation and subject to adjustments if someone has another interpretation)
Anyway every time one of the devs has responded to questions about natural attacks the response has always come down to you get to attack with that specific attack one time per round unless something specifically grants you a second use of it and so far the only thing I've found was the AoO action.Every other method for getting an additional attack has been explicitly denied by the devs.
grappled condition wrote:In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform.
So the only thing limiting his natural attacks while grappling is the fact that he has to be using at least one hand to maintain the grapple. He still has the other hand free to attack with while grappling. Per Greater Grapple, he can make two grapple checks per round, each of which allows a damage action. This feat would allow him to use the same hand to do damage twice per round (again, they aren't attacks, just damage).
Edit: clarified that the damage from maintaining a grapple isn't an attack.
This is the point I have the least confidence in my argument and why I stated he could get both claws as damage if he were willing to take the -4 to grapple.
The damage option isn't an attack roll but it is an attack it's just an attack that occurs during the grapple check and is dependent on that grapple roll succeeding. This is why spells like true strike affect grapples even though true strike specifically states it only affects grapple rolls.
Looks to me like, by the strict wording, the Barbarian gets a bite attack before his first grapple attempt which deals damage gives him +2 to all grapple checks for the round. Then, he can make two grapple checks due to Greater Grapple, and on each of those that succeeds, he can apply the bite damage again. But he does not get a second bite attack before the second grapple check; however, the +2 bonus to the check from the first bite still applies.
I personally prefer pedantic and detailed responses. If we are going to understand what each other is saying it helps to spell it out.
Excellent. :)
You don't use your move action to maintain the grapple, you use it to make a grapple check and if that succeeds you maintain the grapple while doing one of the defined Grapple actions.
There is nothing in the description of this ability that says or implies that this is a free attack it only states that you CAN make this attack if you choose to if you want. But flatly by RAW if it doesn't state that it's a free or extra attack then it will take up that specific attack for the round.
I could concede that these add up to not allowing two bites per grapple action. But I think you and I agree that the claws are still an option. The next question is whether you could claw twice.
Anyway every time one of the devs has responded to questions about natural attacks the response has always come down to you get to attack with that specific attack one time per round unless something specifically grants you a second use of it and so far the only thing I've found was the AoO action.
Every other method for getting an additional attack has been explicitly denied by the devs.
In my mind, the Greater Grapple feat DOES specifically grant you a second attack. But it's NOT a natural attack. It's a grapple attack, which automatically comes bundled with the ability to do damage "equal to" a natural attack. I think you're still making the mistake of considering the damage you can do after a successful grapple as an actual natural attack, rather than damage "equal to" a natural attack. I don't think anyone would argue (or would they?) that someone with a small knife couldn't do that damage twice using Greater Grapple. It's not a knife attack, it's a grapple attack which allows you to do damage equal to whatever weapon you have in your free hand, whether that be your knuckles, your knife, or your claws.
Looks to me like, by the strict wording, the Barbarian gets a bite attack before his first grapple attempt which deals damage gives him +2 to all grapple checks for the round. Then, he can make two grapple checks due to Greater Grapple, and on each of those that succeeds, he can apply the bite damage again. But he does not get a second bite attack before the second grapple check; however, the +2 bonus to the check from the first bite still applies.
Revan, the Barbarian's bite attack is made as part of a grapple action. Normally, when you're getting just one grapple action per turn, I would say you are correct. But Greater Grapple gives you two grapple actions per turn. Hence two bites per turn. That's my stance.
Edit: Fixed quote tags.
We are basically discussing two different things:
1. Does Animal Fury grant a bonus attack on both grapple actions granted by Greater Grapple?
2. Is there a hard limit to the number of uses of a single natural attack per round, or is it simply during the Full Attack action?
Anyway every time one of the devs has responded to questions about natural attacks the response has always come down to you get to attack with that specific attack one time per round unless something specifically grants you a second use of it and so far the only thing I've found was the AoO action.
Every other method for getting an additional attack has been explicitly denied by the devs.
I get a bit confused by this. I know I can Cleave with my natural attacks (off the top of my head, a Stegosaurus does this). Cleave makes no reference to natural attacks. I have yet to see a power/spell which specifically allows you more natural attacks when it grants bonus attacks (I would say Haste, for example, is worded to not allow natural attacks).
In RAW, neither the Universal Monster Rules or the PRD mentions a hard cap, the only reference to not getting attacks in from high BAB during the Full Attack action.
And in any case as daeruin stated, dealing damage on a grapple check IS NOT an attack, it is simply dealing damage equal to that attack.
As for the Animal Fury bite, I think your position needs to be modified. I can see Revan's view, that you get a free bite on your first grapple action and not on the second, and this is an interpretation of Animal Fury decoupled from Greater Grapple. However, I cannot see that it is dependent on a successful check, as that makes succeeding on your first check reduce the efficacy of your second grapple action.
My interpretation is that Greater Grapple should have the wording "both of these grapple actions count as attempts to maintain the grapple and follow the normal rules, though only one needs to succeed for you to maintain the grapple".
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We are basically discussing two different things:
1. Does Animal Fury grant a bonus attack on both grapple actions granted by Greater Grapple?
2. Is there a hard limit to the number of uses of a single natural attack per round, or is it simply during the Full Attack action?Anyway every time one of the devs has responded to questions about natural attacks the response has always come down to you get to attack with that specific attack one time per round unless something specifically grants you a second use of it and so far the only thing I've found was the AoO action.
Every other method for getting an additional attack has been explicitly denied by the devs.I get a bit confused by this. I know I can Cleave with my natural attacks (off the top of my head, a Stegosaurus does this). Cleave makes no reference to natural attacks. I have yet to see a power/spell which specifically allows you more natural attacks when it grants bonus attacks (I would say Haste, for example, is worded to not allow natural attacks).
In RAW, neither the Universal Monster Rules or the PRD mentions a hard cap, the only reference to not getting attacks in from high BAB during the Full Attack action.
And in any case as daeruin stated, dealing damage on a grapple check IS NOT an attack, it is simply dealing damage equal to that attack.
As for the Animal Fury bite, I think your position needs to be modified. I can see Revan's view, that you get a free bite on your first grapple action and not on the second, and this is an interpretation of Animal Fury decoupled from Greater Grapple. However, I cannot see that it is dependent on a successful check, as that makes succeeding on your first check reduce the efficacy of your second grapple action.
My interpretation is that Greater Grapple should have the wording "both of these grapple actions count as attempts to maintain the grapple and follow the normal rules, though only one needs to succeed for you to maintain the grapple".
Most of the issues with this can be laid at the feet of the natural attack entry. SKR has stated he doesn't like the wording and is considering making changes to it.
Now just considering the animal fury entry first. Remember all it does is give you a natural attack and on the occasions where you are grappling or being grappled you can choose to use this attack before attempting to maintain or break free it will give you a bonus on that if you hit.
Nothing in the entry ever states you get a free attack, that is an assumption with nothing to back it up. And we all know what happens when you assume anything.
All it states is with this power if you hit with a bite attack before maintaining or attempting to break free you get a +2 on that check.
Cleave is a great example of an ability that gives you an extra attack, it specifically states you get to make an additional attack and what conditions you have to meet to get it, This power doesn't.
Now if you can point to anything in this description saying you get an extra or free attack I'll be the first to to start using it, I just don't see anything that says it does.
@Daerun, I am also willing to concede that taking two claw attacks is possible and probably legal. I would personally require the grabber to take the -4 for not having both hands free but would never push it in anyone else's game.
Getting the second attack with the knife is a bad example however, since manufactured weapons are designed to get multiple attacks per round, natural weapons aren't.
In summation we have two points that I would personally like to be cleared up a bit to resolve this question:
1). Grapple rules, Can you maintain a grapple more than once per round?
2). Can you attack with a natural weapon more than once per round ?
My belief is NO to both of these but would be happy if the answer is yes.
@Daerun, I am also willing to concede that taking two claw attacks is possible and probably legal. I would personally require the grabber to take the -4 for not having both hands free but would never push it in anyone else's game.
Getting the second attack with the knife is a bad example however, since manufactured weapons are designed to get multiple attacks per round, natural weapons aren't.
I think you're still thinking about it wrong. It's not two claw attacks. It's two grapple checks, with the result that you get to apply damage from your existing natural attack ability. Think of it this way. You're grappling somebody, and they're struggling to get free. You roll to keep them down, and succeed. You've either got a fist, a knife, or your claws literally two inches from their body at most, and they can hardly move. It's trivial at that point to just jab them with whatever you've got. Your claws are probably sticking into their skin already, and all you have to do is flex your fingers. It's not an actual claw attack. It's a grapple check that allows your claws to do automatic damage, because your opponent can't move. That's my interpretation, at least. And I think the example with the knife still holds up under that interpretation.
In summation we have two points that I would personally like to be cleared up a bit to resolve this question:
1). Grapple rules, Can you maintain a grapple more than once per round?
2). Can you attack with a natural weapon more than once per round ?My belief is NO to both of these but would be happy if the answer is yes.
The first question is simply a matter of interpreting the intent of the Greater Grapple feat and how it modifies normal grappling. Surely it's been addressed before on the forums somewhere!? Although I am starting to think that the description of the barbarian's Animal Fury wasn't written with the Greater Grapple feat in mind. To really settle it, we'll probably need an official statement.
As for the second question, I'm now convinced that it doesn't make sense to allow a bite attack before maintaining and another after, especially if you're doing it twice per round. For one thing, I just can't picture it in my head—some guy biting over and over and over like some crazy piranha. The intent of the Animal Fury ability, in my mind, is that you latch on with your teeth to help hold your opponent down, which incidentally does damage. On subsequent rounds, any additional damage you do with that attack could be thought of as just tightening your jaws and perhaps twisting and shaking a bit to do extra damage, rather than letting go and biting again (which seems like it would give your enemy another chance to escape). And the successful bites would then facilitate the extra claw damage allowed by Greater Grapple. None of that is really RAW, but it makes sense to me.
Incidentally, would you (Mathwei) personally consider removing or reducing the -4 to the second claw attack if the barbarian also had the Brutal Pugilist archetype? The Savage Grapple ability halves the penalties from being in the grappled condition, while Improved Savage Grapple removes the penalties entirely. The combination of Brutal Pugilist, Animal Fury, and Beast Totem with the Greater Grapple feat makes one mean grappling bastar... I mean barbarian.
But only allowing one bite and one claw attack per round kind of nerfs that whole setup. I guess you would still have the advantage of reducing their ability to defend themselves and attack you back, which is a big advantage. With all your bonuses to grappling, and their penalties, it would be pretty easy to keep the grapple going, and get the automatic damage, or else just tie them up and coup de grace. Either way, it sounds fun!
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Incidentally, would you (Mathwei) personally consider removing or reducing the -4 to the second claw attack if the barbarian also had the Brutal Pugilist archetype? The Savage Grapple ability halves the penalties from being in the grappled condition, while Improved Savage Grapple removes the penalties entirely. The combination of Brutal Pugilist, Animal Fury, and Beast Totem with the Greater Grapple feat makes one mean grappling bastar... I mean barbarian.
But only allowing one bite and one claw attack per round kind of nerfs that whole setup. I guess you would still have the advantage of reducing their ability to defend themselves and attack you back, which is a big advantage. With all your bonuses to grappling, and their penalties, it would be pretty easy to keep the grapple going, and get the automatic damage, or else just tie them up and coup de grace. Either way, it sounds fun!
With the recently announced (today) nerfs to grappling in today's blog post, I can't see any reason to even grapple anymore.
but personally I would definitely allow those two abilities to apply to the check if they work as you say.
I'm away from my books so can't look up the abiities in question.
Surely it's been addressed before on the forums somewhere!?
I've just been doing a few searches, and this is what I came up with:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/questionAboutTheGrapplingRules
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/grappleQuestions730qx
In both of these threads, the consensus seems to be that both actions taken with Greater Grapple are considered to be maintaining actions. Nothing official, it's just what other people understand the rules to be saying. On the other hand, there's this thread which deals with the same question I posted:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/barbarianAnimalFuryGrappling2chiu
The two people who replied to this question differed on whether the second grapple check is considered to be a maintain or not.
I guess that wasn't really so helpful, and there's no official answer anywhere that I can find.
With the recently announced (today) nerfs to grappling in today's blog post, I can't see any reason to even grapple anymore.
I hadn't seen the blog post, so I was a little freaked out until I read it. It's not really a change in the rules. If you read the grappling rules, it explicitly states that you can choose to attack while being grappled. I would argue that grappling can still be worth it in many cases, and I have been going back and forth with some people on the blog post about it.
I think we'll have to conclude with agreeing to disagree. My position is still that one can damage with the same natural weapon twice with Greater Grapple, though I am not decided on one or two bites per round from Animal Fury. I do think that the Animal Fury bite should not depend on whether the grapple check is successful or not, just because I don't like the "you fail, so you get a free attack"-aspect of it. In my mind it should be changed to a "on the first grapple check each round"- or "on each grapple check"-wording.
In the end, I think this issue lives out there on the margins of the rules, and we will end up using what works best in our group.
PS: Regarding the blog post and the uses for grappling:
Grappling is for locking down an opponent's position, denying him the ability to dish out attacks of opportunity and stopping his spellcasting. Against a brute force enemy it's not that awesome, but it looks to be the bane of casters on paper (and I will see it in practice as my group continues through Serpent's Skull).